As to all the discussion about MMO

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: Mystic

If demarpaint had been flat out lying about MMO, I think that would have been discovered quickly also. There are some smart people here.


So who said he is? Flat out or not? Flat what?

You're not getting it. You're not getting it either.

The salient point is this. Why should we take someone at their word when they make claims? Why have different standards? Because w/o the data, pictures, etc. you're looking for what else is there?

Because a "respected member" says it? Then everyone should be using zmax and arx. A respected member uses the former, and quite successfully to all accounts. Pilots I know in person, not anonymous posters on an internet forum, swear by it. Would you take testimony from a person you and others consider liars, people with an agenda, shills, or a company owner aggressively pushing people to use a product, by attacking them?

The cost is of no consequence. REALLY?????? Not if people here are going to continue to play the "respected member" card. Because it is a starting point, see above.

Arx. "Respected members" used it successfully. Even some of the site owners here. Again, going by the "respected member" cry, everyone should be using it. And again, the cost is of no consequence. See above I covered it in two places.

If one want to post about all the "great things" an oil additive does, have at it. Despite the claim, no one is trying to oppress anything. Well, that's not exactly true. Considering how some are trying to oppress the more skeptical.

If one thinks that just because one posted it, that it is beyond scrutiny, then one is only deluding one's self. More than one has posted positively, and if you look at positives vs. negatives MMO seems to have quite a fan base, no company owner pushing the product. Only one SHILL, me.


Since you're talking ABOUT me I'll reply, in blue.

I'm really hoping we get a new forum for the pictures, data, tests, etc. Then we can all sing a song of joy.

 

[Trav]

Quote:
The question is, do you trust a forum post about someone else's eyes and ears, from someone you've never even met, with nothing to back it up?

Unfortunately yes i am guilty of that!
I tried one product based on all the "good press" it received here at BITOG. After a few hundred bucks and 2yrs later i came to the conclusion it wasn't worth the plastic bottle it came in.
The owner and some members kept trying to convince me it was my fault i wasn't getting results even though i followed the directions to the letter, they even said "we changed the directions since you bought it" so no you didn't.

Yes my eyes and ears told me the truth, it later came out that posters were paid and some real shenanigans were taking place.
This is one case, on the other hand over the years i have found some great products through this site that work as well or better than i expected e.g Kroil (and by default Kreen), Lubeguard, Coolguard, Amsoil products etc.

I know Frank (Demarpaint) personally and consider him a friend. He is no shill or paid poster, i trust him therefore if he says something it has merit.
It all comes down to character and Frank has that as do a lot of members here which IMO adds a lot of value to their opinions. As far as MMO is concerned if one person makes the claim that's one thing but when dozens make the same claim and the company has been in business almost a century then that's another story, i tend to believe the product has some value in certain situations.

 

[Donald]

How large of a container do the MMO fans normally purchase given its many uses? 1 gallon, 5 gallon, case of 4 one gallons?

 

[ueberooo]

Originally Posted By: Donald
How large of a container do the MMO fans normally purchase given its many uses? 1 gallon, 5 gallon, case of 4 one gallons?


32 oz, cost only around $5 or $6.

I use 8 oz for my oil. So, a decent value add to the oil at well under $2.

Sometimes I use 2 oz to 4 oz in a tank of fuel. 4 oz is the standard recc'd dosage--just around 70 cents. Or, if you're cheap like me and dilute with soy oil, about 50 cents per tank.

It has other great uses too and it smells great. I blend it with ATF for pretty sweet bike chain lube (sometimes with mos2+ATF for a darker yet better version of my bike lube).

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Trajan
The salient point is this. Why should we take someone at their word when they make claims? Why have different standards? Because w/o the data, pictures, etc. you're looking for what else is there?

Your question here seems to imply that, because evidence is nowhere to be found, we therefore have to take what people say at face value. True or false?

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: mechtech2
It can be smart to use a product like MMO WITHOUT any sensations or wear testing.
Why?
Because it is a lube, and we can use it for fuel pump lubrication and top end lubing without sensory input.
Cleaning? What if our engines don't need it - we would not feel or experience anything with a product that KEEPS thing clean/cleaner.


You get UCL, easier starting, etc with Walmart brand TC-W3 according to the claims made for that. And gallon for gallon, it's about $7-$8 cheaper than MMO.

 

[Mystic]

Trajan, do you see all of these people who keep coming forward saying that they obtained good results with MMO? That is totally different than what happened when the Synlube guys showed up. You seem to have a dislike for MMO. But you don't have to use it. What is wrong with people who like MMO discussing it here? This is the Oil Additives section! This is the section where people discuss oil additives!

I have read the various posts that have come out concerning MMO. I would say that based on what I have seen most people have reported that they obtained positive results. A few said that they obtained no results. About the only time I remember anybody reported serious bad results was the post about somebody putting way too much in an aircraft engine. There is always somebody who can't read directions.

As long as somebody has the ability to follow directions I think there is small chance that MMO will damage an engine. MMO is a cheap and easy experiment. If somebody has a noisy lifter they could buy some and give it a try. If it does not quiet the noisy lifter that person has not lost much. If it does quiet the noisy lifter well that is achieivng real results at little expense.

A lot of people here have reported things like this. Is that not evidence that MMO really works? I would think that a lifter quieting down or an engine appearing to be cleaner would be evidence that MMO works.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Trajan
The salient point is this. Why should we take someone at their word when they make claims? Why have different standards? Because w/o the data, pictures, etc. you're looking for what else is there?

Your question here seems to imply that, because evidence is nowhere to be found, we therefore have to take what people say at face value. True or false?


False. People should do what ever they like. Those seeking evidence well keep seeking until you find something that makes you happy, and when you find it post it here.

 

[Mystic]

In any case, I am done with this discussion. The Oil Additives section is the place where people discuss oil supplements they have tried and I will read whatever people post here. Some higher standard of testing might well be a good thing in some new section for that. That would be up to the people who own this website.

There will be a continuing discussion on MMO here. Just as other supplements will be discussed. Whoever has something positive to say about MMO can post their comments. Whoever has negative remarks can post those comments. There will never be some sort of expensive and elaborate lab testing of MMO or most of the other oil supplements here.

If people want to post that there has never been some adequate standard for evaluating MMO that is fine. I don't think a lot of other oil supplements discussed here, such as Auto-RX, have met those higher standards either.

I am willing to try MMO. A lot of people here have stated that they had positive results of some kind using MMO, such as noisy lifters getting quiet or an engine appearing to be cleaner on the inside. I am willing to try MMO especially in the wintertime when there is some evidence that it helps motor oil to flow well in the cold. I see no apparent harm in the product as long as a person can follow directions and not use too much.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Trajan
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
It can be smart to use a product like MMO WITHOUT any sensations or wear testing.
Why?
Because it is a lube, and we can use it for fuel pump lubrication and top end lubing without sensory input.
Cleaning? What if our engines don't need it - we would not feel or experience anything with a product that KEEPS thing clean/cleaner.


You get UCL, easier starting, etc with Walmart brand TC-W3 according to the claims made for that. And gallon for gallon, it's about $7-$8 cheaper than MMO.



Sure but does it clean? Oh yea, last I read you better not toss that TCW3 into the crankcase, that would be a mistake. It is a good UCL though. In fact in older engines in need of repair I noticed better idle quality with TCW3, others have similar observations, but then we're back to the butt dino.

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: Mystic

There will never be some sort of expensive and elaborate lab testing of MMO or most of the other oil supplements here.


This again? Kindly name those who are asking for it. And link the posts in which they do so.

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: Mystic
Trajan, do you see all of these people who keep coming forward saying that they obtained good results with MMO?


You mean all the claims. What I do see is continuing attempts to supress anyone who isn't inclined to just accept "stories" on their face.

Ancedotes are useful for tall tales. To make decisions you need data. And claiming things such as "OMG, I got better MPG.!!", or similar statements, isn't data.

Anecdotes are not the plural of data. Never have been. Never will be.

 

[demarpaint]

Trajan-Still banging away at the mpg claims? It's old already. How about cleaning ability and quieting lifters, care to attack that for a while? Tell us we can't see or hear.

Search the www. and dig us up some data, we all want to see it.

Also show me how TCW3 is cheaper to add to the crankcase than MMO w/o destroying an engine.

 

[Bayman]

Hi, new member here, long time MMO user, great product that saved me tons of dollars over the 30 years I used it. Why is there such hostility here toward the product? Proof comes in many forms, although it is tough to prove to people opposed to opinions, and testimony. I compile my own data from tinkering.

Great site, thanks for letting me join.

 

[Bamboooo]

4 out of 5 dentists recommend Crest.

There you go, Trojan. There's a new one for you to use your twisted logic and argue.

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: Bamboooo
4 out of 5 dentists recommend Crest.

There you go, Trojan. There's a new one for you to use your twisted logic and argue.


Sad. Just sad.

Wasn't aware that refusing to accept claims on nothing more than they get posted was twisted. But I can see where the unrepentant dogmatics do.

 

[ueberooo]

Thanks to everybody here for contributing to this amusing discussion!

Okay, just kidding, now seriously though I have two points to make.

1. Bullet proof reliable 'data' and studies are hard to come by.

E.g., recently in the news we've seen a study that links vitamin consumption with higher death rates in women. I've seen similar 'data' before and there has always in the past been a pretty sensible explanation for the data. Namely, that the correlation between pill poppers and sickly people may exists, but that it's not what one might first think, a cause and effect relationship of popping pills causing cancer, but quite possibly the other way around, that is, sickly people tending to better themselves, and hence frequently using vitamins as well as any other potential cures and aids they can imagine. Statistics if full of traps and complications of interpretation like this.

2. Most or at least much of Bitog behavior (as in, our choice of oils, additive, etc etc) is largely a factor of marketing. If the images of logos and the ads, and marketing campaigns and strategies of brands of Quaker, Mobil, Amsoil, Kendall, Castrol, Penzoil, Valvoline, etc. were all mixed and shuffled among the products, we would all (or the majority of us) be using a different products. (I likely would still be using 'Kendall' brand/logo in my mind but the product would be some other decent and mid priced oil like Shell or some such.)

Realizing that I'm susceptible to marketing (when it comes to oil, additives, and completely unrelated products in general) I always ask myself the question, 'how ethical is the company?' One of the most blatant indicators usually happens to be pricing margin. For me, there are two clear areas
a. Reasonable (around or roughly about 30%)
b. Completely unreasonable (over 75%, typically 90% I'm guessing)

One marketing strategy is to discount the product and hope for growth coming from new customers who become repeat customers. The other strategy is to milk it for one shot deals but a heft profit.

And this is another positive indicator for MMO in my sort of common sense evaluation:

Originally Posted By: Mystic
MMO is a cheap and easy experiment. If somebody has a noisy lifter they could buy some and give it a try. If it does not quiet the noisy lifter that person has not lost much. If it does quiet the noisy lifter well that is achieivng real results at little expense.


Together with the awesome nice minty smell marketing gimmick, I think Marvel's (now Turtle wax or whatever) marketing teams have been pretty ethical compared to the crowd average.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Bayman
Hi, new member here, long time MMO user, great product that saved me tons of dollars over the 30 years I used it. Why is there such hostility here toward the product? Proof comes in many forms, although it is tough to prove to people opposed to opinions, and testimony. I compile my own data from tinkering.

Great site, thanks for letting me join.

Bayman. There are only a few "hostile" people here, very few in fact. You'll be able to pick them out pretty easy, still its a great site to be a part of. I'm glad to see you've had positive experiences with MMO if you have some time care to share them? Some of us are interested.

 

[ProfPS]

I'll start by sharing that I have had good results with MMO in quieting lifter ticks, thinning oxidized oil/cold temp starting after 3500k mi and end of OCI deposit preventative when use in the crankcase, and quieting fuel pump whine and injector ticks when added to the fuel tank. The product does work as we've read by many BITOG member posts. However, I have not experienced mpg increases in either of my two cars when using the recommended dose down to 2 oz/15 gal mix.

I stopped adding MMO to the crankcase last spring due to my concern with oil film retention and the chlorine ingredient. What caught my attention about film retention was during an oil level check and the oil on the dipstick was not adhering to the metal surface as compared to no MMO in the oil. With MMO in the engine, it ran great, started fine in cold weather, and it did not blow up or seize. I have not tried TCW-2/-3 and may try it one day. I have turned to adding 0W-20 for my oil thinner and deposit maintenance; my 4k mi OCI's seem to keep varnish, sludge and deposits under control.

If I experience lifter ticks in the future, or TCW does not quiet fuel pump whine and injector ticks, I go back to using MMO.

 

[Trajan]

It was only a tempory fix for a lifter tick on my last car.

Can say nothing about fuel pump whine or injector noise as that has never been a problem.

As for starting fine in cold weather, running great, or blowing up or seizing. None of that was a problem when the only cars that I had were 20 year old hand me downs or $400 beaters. {Such as a 1964 Le Sabre or a 1968 Nova.)

And it certainly isn't a problem with the much newer, barely driven, cars I've had in recent years.

So, why would I want to add MMO to oil? Are current oil formulations that bad that they need help? Because other do it?