Are the days of the 10k OCI over with?

No question it's doable.
53' Stude said:
Yup, GM is holding onto that engine too. Take a gander at the PROTUNE 22500 that went almost 10k. The vehicle is doing great at 52k presently
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No, LFX is gone. LGX/LGZ is a completely different engine. LFX had timing chain issues. :)

1690822230021.png
 
OVERKILL said:
How about the Ford Coyote engines?
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Not sure what you're getting at, but it is clear that some GDI applications are more prone to this issue than others. Now, is it possible that some applications generate more GDI soot than others? Definitely.....and in combination with a smaller sump size, materials used and chain design, the perfect storm of aggregators can increase the potential for chain wear during long intervals.
 
The Critic said:
Not sure what you're getting at, but it is clear that some GDI applications are more prone to this issue than others. Now, is it possible that some applications generate more GDI soot than others? Definitely.....and in combination with a smaller sump size, materials used and chain design, the perfect storm of aggregators can increase the potential for chain wear during long intervals.
Click to expand...
I'm just trying to get a lay of the land as to how GDI, and soot, influences timing chain wear and whether there's sufficiently robust evidence to establish an undeniable correlation. If there are examples where it hasn't/doesn't, then that would imply that there are mitigation mechanisms or that the correlation is weak. That is, DI soot may, in controlled testing, result in more wear, but this may not ultimately manifest in timing chain and component wear/failure, that depends, perhaps moreso, on design decisions.
 
OVERKILL said:
I'm just trying to get a lay of the land as to how GDI, and soot, influences timing chain wear and whether there's sufficiently robust evidence to establish an undeniable correlation. If there are examples where it hasn't/doesn't, then that would imply that there are mitigation mechanisms or that the correlation is weak. That is, DI soot may, in controlled testing, result in more wear, but this may not ultimately manifest in timing chain and component wear/failure, that depends, perhaps moreso, on design decisions.
Click to expand...
Surely if there was a solid link between GDI soot and timing chain wear, we'd be seeing it in something like the Toyota 2GR-FSE, which is one of the first major engines to use GDI. I can't recall if that engine had timing chain issues for sure. A cursory google search seems to indicate it did not.
 
vpr5703 said:
Surely if there was a solid link between GDI soot and timing chain wear, we'd be seeing it in something like the Toyota 2GR-FSE, which is one of the first major engines to use GDI. I can't recall if that engine had timing chain issues for sure. A cursory google search seems to indicate it did not.
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There is.

"So far, it has been established that the new substance falls somewhere between traditional soot and sludge, while yet maintaining several unique properties. A strong understanding of both traditional soot and sludge has helped Lubrizol understand the fundamental differences between those materials and GDI soot.

  • Appearance GDI soot simply looks different than either traditional soot or sludge. Traditional soot maintains a turbostratic structure, meaning the substance’s carbon planes appear in a logical pattern. GDI soot, meanwhile, is far more amorphous and doesn’t maintain a firm structure.
  • Chemistry At the chemical level, GDI soot is more aromatic than traditional soot, and is slightly more polar. For both of these reasons, GDI soot has been found to interact with lubricants in certain ways that have not been previously witnessed. Specifically, the material can interfere with lubricant additives and the ways in which those additives perform their intended functions–primarily the lubricant’s ability to provide the robust protection that GDI engines require. Traditional soot is commonly responsible for lubricant thickening–while this problem exists to some extent with GDI soot, oil marketers and OEMs are far more concerned with the non-traditional engine wear associated with GDI soot.
Combined with acids and fuel dilution from incomplete combustion, GDI soot has been found specifically to contribute to accelerated wear on an engine’s timing chain, a vitally important component connecting the engine’s crankshaft to the camshaft."

https://360.lubrizol.com/2015/GDI-Soot-A-New-Challenge

OVERKILL said:
I'm just trying to get a lay of the land as to how GDI, and soot, influences timing chain wear and whether there's sufficiently robust evidence to establish an undeniable correlation. If there are examples where it hasn't/doesn't, then that would imply that there are mitigation mechanisms or that the correlation is weak. That is, DI soot may, in controlled testing, result in more wear, but this may not ultimately manifest in timing chain and component wear/failure, that depends, perhaps moreso, on design decisions.
Click to expand...
I would like to say that the additive suppliers (Lubrizol in this case) are pretty reputable in their discussions of emerging issues. With that said, I think your concept is sound, but it will be difficult to informally build the case that you're proposing without access to a lot of data.
 
This is my take on timing chains.
Have you ever hit the ground with your chainsaw? Instantly you will have an inch of slack from the dirt wearing the chain. I have old chains and bars for cutting roots.
For my good bars and chains, I use ISO 220 HD tacified which is equivalent to SAE 50 and crank up the auto oiler.
Look up ISO particle count.
Repeated and accepted as fact, that wear particles that are small enough to pass through the oil filter will not cause engine wear.
Maybe not, but I’ll bet they cause timing chain wear.
 
If someone wants to do 10K, or 5K is a personal choice.

OLM are not designed for the MAX longevity of the vehicle they are designed for the vehicle to meet design life expectations..

Oil kept in a sump for longer intervals will have higher contaminants that shorter interval oil. the oil may be fine but you are relying on your filter to keep those particles from the engine.

99% efficiency = for 1000 particles means 10 particles get through, 99% efficiently of 100 particles means 1 particle gets through.

I personally like less particles and will stick with cleaner oil, which means a shorter OCI for me.

Oil in a pan also sloshes around even with a windage tray and some of that contaminated oil will get on moving parts of the bottom end.

To each their own.
 
The Critic said:
There is.

"So far, it has been established that the new substance falls somewhere between traditional soot and sludge, while yet maintaining several unique properties. A strong understanding of both traditional soot and sludge has helped Lubrizol understand the fundamental differences between those materials and GDI soot.

  • Appearance GDI soot simply looks different than either traditional soot or sludge. Traditional soot maintains a turbostratic structure, meaning the substance’s carbon planes appear in a logical pattern. GDI soot, meanwhile, is far more amorphous and doesn’t maintain a firm structure.
  • Chemistry At the chemical level, GDI soot is more aromatic than traditional soot, and is slightly more polar. For both of these reasons, GDI soot has been found to interact with lubricants in certain ways that have not been previously witnessed. Specifically, the material can interfere with lubricant additives and the ways in which those additives perform their intended functions–primarily the lubricant’s ability to provide the robust protection that GDI engines require. Traditional soot is commonly responsible for lubricant thickening–while this problem exists to some extent with GDI soot, oil marketers and OEMs are far more concerned with the non-traditional engine wear associated with GDI soot.
Combined with acids and fuel dilution from incomplete combustion, GDI soot has been found specifically to contribute to accelerated wear on an engine’s timing chain, a vitally important component connecting the engine’s crankshaft to the camshaft."

https://360.lubrizol.com/2015/GDI-Soot-A-New-Challenge


I would like to say that the additive suppliers (Lubrizol in this case) are pretty reputable in their discussions of emerging issues. With that said, I think your concept is sound, but it will be difficult to informally build the case that you're proposing without access to a lot of data.
Click to expand...
This does make sense. But if the damage was happening we'd certainly be seeing huge amounts of timing chain issues coming out of vehicles, and GDI has been around since the mid 2000's. So either it's not as big of an issue as we think it is, or the manufacturers are doing something to mitigate the harm. I'd be interested to hear more information on this if you have it. It fascinates me.
 
Some folks say we had fuel dilution with carburetors - guessing the propensity to change oil often was offsetting the negative effects … More 10W30 around in those days as well … More pushrod mills as a percentage on the road … Etc …
 
OVERKILL said:
I'm just trying to get a lay of the land as to how GDI, and soot, influences timing chain wear and whether there's sufficiently robust evidence to establish an undeniable correlation. If there are examples where it hasn't/doesn't, then that would imply that there are mitigation mechanisms or that the correlation is weak. That is, DI soot may, in controlled testing, result in more wear, but this may not ultimately manifest in timing chain and component wear/failure, that depends, perhaps moreso, on design decisions.
Click to expand...
Remember the impact of soot on chain wear is behind API SP.

Sequence X Test

https://www.intertek.com/automotive/sequence-x/

"The Sequence X Test evaluates undesirable timing chain wear in gasoline, turbocharged, direct-injection (GTGI) engines. The test has demonstrated a correlation to observed timing chain wear in the field and provides a means for evaluating the performance of fully formulated engine lubricating oils. The laboratory engine test consists of two stages and runs for a total of 216 hours. The increase in timing chain length determined at the end of test is the primary result."
 
In a controlled environment under IDEAL condition 10K miles is doable, not so much in real life where conditions & situation differ.
Also that interval was mandated by the marketing people not the engineers.
 
buster said:
You also have to consider the oil - some oils are built to withstand longer drain intervals.
Click to expand...
Buster: what are your thoughts and info on the M1 ESP line up? Are they also designed for long OCI’s? @ OVERKILL, what do you know of the ESP line up?

Thank You both 🇺🇸🇨🇦
 
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