Are the days of the 10k OCI over with?

[Nayov]

I do believe my opinion is mostly right with working at Toyota and also knowing someone that works for the EPA to verify that part of the reason they are spec to 10k is for that stuff but I won’t touch anymore on that in respect of the rules here.

Which rules? I'm pretty sure you can opine on here that the 10K mile interval is for environmental purposes, (if that is your belief) without getting banned. The cloak-and-dagger reference to the EPA is unnecessary and doesn't add gravitas to the case you're trying to make. (For the record, I do 5K OCI, sure could go 10K, but I don't want to.)

 

[pbm]

Even for DI engines I think it is possible. My wife has a 2011 Hyundai Sonata whose engine got to 215k miles before it blew up (due to a factory defect in how the engine was built.) If we assume an average driver does about 12k per year that is almost 18 years of mileage. Like anything else it is down to how it is maintained and driven. We will see how the new (rebuilt...) engine does. But there isn't any rust on the rest of the car and the trans is still shifting fine. So onwards we go.

Did Hyundai rebuild you Sonata's engine at 215K under their warranty?

As far as the thread topic...I feel that the ever demanding mandates to improve MPG has brought us to technology that wasn't fully developed before being unleashed on the consumers (GDI, small turbos etc...) I know that Volvo, Saab etc...had used these technologies successfully for years but other manufacturers rushed theirs making us the 'testers'.

I'm not a big fan of thimble sized turboed engines pulling SUVs (I'm fine with the 1.5T in a Civic or Jetta)... a better approach would have been mainstreaming hybrid vehicles for MPG improvement IMO.

 

[vpr5703]

Did Hyundai rebuild you Sonata's engine at 215K under their warranty?

As far as the thread topic...I feel that the ever demanding mandates to improve MPG has brought us to technology that wasn't fully developed before being unleashed on the consumers (GDI, small turbos etc...) I know that Volvo, Saab etc...had used these technologies successfully for years but other manufacturers rushed theirs making us the 'testers'.

I'm not a big fan of thimble sized turboed engines pulling SUVs (I'm fine with the 1.5T in a Civic or Jetta)... a better approach would have been mainstreaming hybrid vehicles for MPG improvement IMO.

They gave us a rebuilt long block. It was originally supposed to be a short block, though.

 

[OVERKILL]

Did you mean hearsay?

I was thinking heresy at the time, the secret squirrel handshake info being whispered between ugha-dugha's that runs contrary to what is prescribed by the OEM, but both would work in retrospect.

 

[TiGeo]

Did Hyundai rebuild you Sonata's engine at 215K under their warranty?

As far as the thread topic...I feel that the ever demanding mandates to improve MPG has brought us to technology that wasn't fully developed before being unleashed on the consumers (GDI, small turbos etc...) I know that Volvo, Saab etc...had used these technologies successfully for years but other manufacturers rushed theirs making us the 'testers'.

I'm not a big fan of thimble sized turboed engines pulling SUVs (I'm fine with the 1.5T in a Civic or Jetta)... a better approach would have been mainstreaming hybrid vehicles for MPG improvement IMO.

At this point we are well into 10+ years of small turbos and GDI and I'm not seeing massive failure rates here. Plenty of Ecoboost Ford F150s running around trouble free.

 

[TiGeo]

 

[userfriendly]

I was thinking heresy at the time, the secret squirrel handshake info being whispered between ugha-dugha's that runs contrary to what is prescribed by the OEM, but both would work in retrospect.

I did my own research on this and it’s called “The Hundredth Monkey Effect”

 

[OVERKILL]

I did my own research on this and it’s called “The Hundredth Monkey Effect”

OK, I had to google that, and that's a plausible theory!

 

[Shel_B]

OK, I had to google that, and that's a plausible theory!

From Wiki: Since it was first popularized, the effect has been discredited in many cases of research. One of the primary factors in the spread of this concept is that many authors quote secondary, tertiary, or post-tertiary sources that have themselves misrepresented the original observations.

 

[JHZR2]

I am switching to 3-5k interval in our 2013 Q5 3.0T after running the first 90k on 10k oci's with Castrol 0W-40. The good lubricants can get to 10k from TAN/TBN/oxidation perspective with non-severe conditions. But the GDI soot accumulation is too small to be filtered out and extremely abrasive to timing chains.

So have you objectively assessed timing chain wear/stretch?

My 1980s Mercedes’ diesels make it super easy. And they show negligible wear in most cases. And that oil is black as ink the second it goes in.

 

[OVERKILL]

From Wiki: Since it was first popularized, the effect has been discredited in many cases of research. One of the primary factors in the spread of this concept is that many authors quote secondary, tertiary, or post-tertiary sources that have themselves misrepresented the original observations.

I think social media (message boards for example) play a large part in enabling the dissemination of this sort of "information" where no effort is made to scrutinize it; applying a critical eye. Often there is a conspiracy angle in play, with the participants getting the ego boost of feeling like they have insider knowledge and that "the man" or "big brother" isn't pulling one over on them, because they know the real truth.

 

[The Critic]

So have you objectively assessed timing chain wear/stretch?

My 1980s Mercedes’ diesels make it super easy. And they show negligible wear in most cases. And that oil is black as ink the second it goes in.

GM's OLM calibration in the early-model Traverse/Acadia's was supposedly too liberal - user's often reported intervals similar to the non-GDI vehicles from the mid 2000's.....so 10K+ intervals were not uncommon. The revised calibrations often caused the interval to be reduced substantially. I think there's something to the theory of GDI soot being a catalyst for chain wear; in fact, GM mentions it in the customer letter:

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2012/CSC-10038598-6093.pdf

I am not sure how much soot is considered excessive and how it'd be measured via UOA....but there is clearly a correlation of some sort.

Edit: Here is an example:
https://www.enclaveforum.net/threads/new-tsb-for-premature-timing-chain-wear-1087a.6695/post-113876

"Just an update. I reported in another thread that I had TSB 1078A performed on my 2009 Enclave in early March after the vehicle present a P0008 code that came and went once. I had the oil changed that same day. We've put 750 miles of suburban driving on the E. The OLM has gone down quickly -- now sits at 81%. If you do the straight-line math, that would get me only about 4000 miles if I took the OLM down to 0%. In the past, I've used full synthetic and changed the oil around 5000 + or -, which meant the OLM was around 50%. At the new rate, 50% would be about 2000 miles and 75% would be 3000 miles! It has Mobil 1 in it now. So, I gotta ask myself if I'll continue to use synthetics if the OLM is forcing such an aggressive oil change schedule. Anyone else noticing that their OLM has changed as much as mine?"

 

[OVERKILL]

GM's OLM calibration in the early-model Traverse/Acadia's was supposedly too liberal - user's often reported intervals similar to the non-GDI vehicles from the mid 2000's.....so 10K+ intervals were not uncommon. The revised calibrations often caused the interval to be reduced substantially. I think there's something to the theory of GDI soot being a catalyst for chain wear; in fact, GM mentions it in the customer letter:

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2012/CSC-10038598-6093.pdf

I am not sure how much soot is considered excessive and how it'd be measured via UOA....but there is clearly a correlation of some sort.

Edit: Here is an example:
https://www.enclaveforum.net/threads/new-tsb-for-premature-timing-chain-wear-1087a.6695/post-113876

"Just an update. I reported in another thread that I had TSB 1078A performed on my 2009 Enclave in early March after the vehicle present a P0008 code that came and went once. I had the oil changed that same day. We've put 750 miles of suburban driving on the E. The OLM has gone down quickly -- now sits at 81%. If you do the straight-line math, that would get me only about 4000 miles if I took the OLM down to 0%. In the past, I've used full synthetic and changed the oil around 5000 + or -, which meant the OLM was around 50%. At the new rate, 50% would be about 2000 miles and 75% would be 3000 miles! It has Mobil 1 in it now. So, I gotta ask myself if I'll continue to use synthetics if the OLM is forcing such an aggressive oil change schedule. Anyone else noticing that their OLM has changed as much as mine?"

Is that the 3.6L engine that was notorious for timing chain issues?

 

[userfriendly]

I think social media (message boards for example) play a large part in enabling the dissemination of this sort of "information" where no effort is made to scrutinize it; applying a critical eye. Often there is a conspiracy angle in play, with the participants getting the ego boost of feeling like they have insider knowledge and that "the man" or "big brother" isn't pulling one over on them, because they know the real truth.

You mean like Facebook University? Dumb as a post brings a new meaning.
Or TicTok
I will do anything for love, but I won’t do that.
Meatloaf was ahead of his time.

 

[The Critic]

Is that the 3.6L engine that was notorious for timing chain issues?

Yes.

 

[OVERKILL]

Yes.

I'd be curious to see if VAG products had timing chain issues after they introduced DI, as they were one of the first to do so and they still ran very long intervals. This would give us some additional insight IMHO. I know timing chain wear is now an API test parameter, but it's likely been part of the OE testing protocols for decades with the Euro marques.

 

[53' Stude]

Is that the 3.6L engine that was notorious for timing chain issues?

Yup, GM is holding onto that engine too. Take a gander at the PROTUNE 22500 that went almost 10k. The vehicle is doing great at 52k presently

 

[The Critic]

I'd be curious to see if VAG products had timing chain issues after they introduced DI, as they were one of the first to do so and they still ran very long intervals. This would give us some additional insight IMHO. I know timing chain wear is now an API test parameter, but it's likely been part of the OE testing protocols for decades with the Euro marques.

They still have timing chain issues but just not as badly as before.
If you're in the various Euro Tech groups you will find discussion about chains being replaced in the recent models, but obviously it is impossible to obtain any objective data (of scale) from posts alone.

 

[OVERKILL]

You mean like Facebook University? Dumb as a post brings a new meaning.
I will do anything for love, but I won’t do that.
Meatloaf was ahead of his time.

And Youtube trained!

 

[OVERKILL]

They still have timing chain issues but just not as badly as before.
If you're in the various Euro Tech groups you will find discussion about chains being replaced in the recent models, but obviously it is impossible to obtain any objective data (of scale) from posts alone.

How about the Ford Coyote engines?