Are EVs the death of the performance ICE market?

I had to look up BMW M3 used prices and I am impressed by how much value they retain now, and the older ones seem to be going up in value.
With a 2020 Model 3 performance averaging about $40k and a new price of $65k, it still is pretty cheap for a performance car, as there's no $200 oil changes, and $90 fill ups, so at for 4 years I would think the Tesla is still a bit cheaper to own.
The new model 3 performance is still $65k(with EV rebate) and an M3 comp is $103k, and the new Model 3 performance is a very very good drivers car, so it may hold its value much better than the 1st gen.
I imagine in 20 years a 2025 BMW M3 will be worth much more, than the 2025 Model 3 Perf, so if you spend the money to keep the maintenance up, the M3 may not cost much more at all?

In 20 years, walking into a dealer and asking for parts for that M3 probably won't faze the counter guy.

The understanding of heritage, and support for its classics and other old cars is something that takes commitment, and effort, on the part of the OEMs. The storied marques understand that.

Tesla puts little priority into supporting its products, and has difficulty fulfilling parts orders for vehicles that are still in production.

The tech mindset and product cycles may work fine for software, and that industry, but white goods? Not so much.
 
Isn't the question like asking, will all the automatic features of the new cameras, kill the market for cameras that need the owners to focus and make settings on their own? The new automatic modes are even more automatic than before, and a human can't even make decisions as fast as these new automatic modes. The new breed of cameras pretty much take pictures on their own. Not only that, but photographers can now do other things like shave, watch sports, and attend school plays, while the cameras incorporate AI and essentially do the job of the photographer. Kinda like shopping at Costco on co. time, whaddya think.
I have several old match needle SLRs and they are a whole lot more engaging to use than anything modern and do take better pictures.
I even have an ancient Nikonos although I'm not sure I'd take it in the water now.
The same is true of ICE cars.
There is nothing more entertaining to drive than an MGB and nothing else has the sound on a V-12 Ferrari.
It remains that for most drivers, an EV is the fastest thing they could ever hope to own and they have neither the personal skills nor the perceived time to own anything like an MGB.
 
Id say we're a ways off because even if EVs are faster, they have no soul and enthusiasts are going to buy ICE or keep the old ones running for as long as parts are available.
 
Go to your local track, and check what people use to have fun!
Especially one of the few things I find mindblowing/entertaining and that is Top Fuel dragsters/funny cars. Pretty certain no EV made will actually cause a bit of seismic activity on launch.
 
Especially one of the few things I find mindblowing/entertaining and that is Top Fuel dragsters/funny cars. Pretty certain no EV made will actually cause a bit of seismic activity on launch.
They installed two chargers at a track where I go. I would say that they re not working anymore. 5-6yrs ago, there were few people that would bring Teslas, but that was short-lived.
 
Short answer, no.

No Ev's are a one trick pony. Sure fast 0-60 but heavy, limited performance range think endurance racing, slow charging etc. Most hyper and even high end sports cars are hybrid ice/battery. The Hennessy F5 was just mentioned by topspeed as it's the highest horsepower and performance manual transmission vehicle currently on sale. The E-series racing lasted what 2-3 years ( or is it still around? ) A few years ago battery swapping was still being seriously looked at. Ev batteries are essentially giant rechargeable Ryobi batteries. If they get lighter and smaller maybe that could become a possibility?
Technology continues to advance. Batteries are obviously the biggest issue for EVs. The motors are simple really. Battery advancements are where the real differences will be made. It's just a matter of how long it takes to see it.

If anything, they'll become a more entrenched niche, for those with the means, and desire to own what will become outliers. For most folks, it won't matter.

Quartz watches haven't killed off mechanical watches.

Synthesizers and digital pianos are pitch perfect, never need tuning, and more practical. But they still make pianos the old-fashioned way, don't they?

What would you think if you went to see a concert pianist play at Carnegie Hall, and found after you arrived there was a Casio on stage, and not a Steinway?
The comparison of quartz and mechanical watches is kind of unfortunate, because there really aren't that many affordable quality mechanicals as there used to be. Seiko was went up in price for their midrange mechanicals which I love, but the lower 7S26 watches have been killed off and have gotten more expensive with the 4R movements. Even then they're not always the most reliable. I think that's pretty fitting for a comparison though, because when you talk higher end watches the comparison for higher end niche sports cars an exotics can be made and those just continue to go up into astronomical numbers. Who would have thought we'd be seeing factory 911s at $300k? I don't think us car guys with a bit shallower pockets are going to be playing with proper naturally aspirated, beautifully revving engines with manual gearboxes new off of dealer lots much if they follow the watch formula and sufficed to say, I think that's kind of what it looks like.

0-60 blah , blah . How about the 24hrs of LeMans ? Indianapolis 500 , etc. Various SCORE races .
Well we're basically discussing consumer products. Race cars and low production exotics will still be their thing I'm sure. I'm not doing my run to the post office in a Corvette C8.R. I'm pretty sure I couldn't buy one and license it for use on the street, at least not with my bank account and connections.

The new Corvette E-ray has a very small battery and it doesn't last very long. It mainly used for autocrossing and some quick drag racing 1/4 mile events. I think hybrids might be the way to go. I still like the roar of a V-8 engine and the shifting of gears in an automatic transmission versus a CVT with an electric motor. I do like obtaining obnoxious fuel/electric/hybrid economy. I have driven Tesla's and yes, they do accelerate very well. To each his own folks.
The E-Ray really needs to be applauded. Hybrid for the simple fact of making it faster and really nothing else. Bravo GM.

I think what EV's are making me realise is that I'm not a 'car guy', but an internal combustion guy and cars are just the every-day way I get to engage with them.

I can't get my head around to liking EV's no matter how capable they're getting.
I can't thank you enough for saying this the way that you did. This is the proper definition of car guy. Most take the angle because I like EVs that I gave up my car guy status. I will say that you're obviously a car guy, we all just have the types we like most. I'll never stop loving cars and I doubt I'll only own EVs even though I do now. I just have no desire to use one as a daily driver. I still have plans for a stupidly modified VR6 VW Corrado without the space to put it in. Yes, my EV loving self can't get enough of that VR6 warble even still. I will have it. In due time though...

I don’t think so. It still is an expensive endeavor. Half of the fun is budget performance. Especially in the GM world.
Is there still budget GM performance new? I thought everything was pretty expensive now in that realm. Now a bit used and a very wide aftermarket of affordable parts goes a long way. I'll never stop loving the LSX platform. That was my first love in cars. I daily drove a 2004 GTO for 8 years. One of the best cars I've ever owned and was reliable on top of it, even modified, tuned, and driven in regular anger just for the fun of destroying tires.

I do work with a guy that has a fairly heavily modified 5th gen Camaro that won't run my Tesla. I honestly think traction might be his biggest issue, but he's convinced I'd wipe the floor with him. He may have less done to the car than I thought, but he had it torn down for a while doing something to the engine's internals. I don't get to talk to him much in my travels, so I haven't gotten in depth on his build.


One final thing to everyone. Can we all just love cars without crapping over the next guy's choice? I love unique and fun cars over any specific type of car. I'm open to learn too. I don't understand fighting over this or that type of powertrain when the main thing I'd love to hear is what you love most about a certain layout. Not what you hate most about that one. Unless it's torque converter automatics, those suck! 😂
 
Go to your local track, and check what people use to have fun!
Miata! But a couple of Tesla's were in the SCCA solo championships, and there's probably a couple EV's at most local autocross meets. I'm sure more than few enthusiasts are cross shopping a Model 3P and M3 and picking the Model 3P, now that it has a lapping mode.
 
Miata! But a couple of Tesla's were in the SCCA solo championships, and there's probably a couple EV's at most local autocross meets. I'm sure more than few enthusiasts are cross shopping a Model 3P and M3 and picking the Model 3P, now that it has a lapping mode.
The Model Y Performance getting the track software helped finally pushed me over the edge to get one. I was going to hold out a bit longer to see if I could get a deal on the M3P, but MYP did get the performance upgrade now too. It did not get it initially. I felt early on that the Model Y's Performance moniker was a bit more tacked on, but at least pre Model 3 Highland it actually kept it's different performance suspension and eventually gained track mode. I haven't played with it extensively, but it does massively back off the traction control, kick up the fans to maintain battery and motor temp, and lower regenerative braking to reduce heat into the battery. The traction control changes allowed it to do a rolling 4 wheel burnout at 20mph. 😂

I think without these things if you're looking to really play with a Tesla as a car guy I'd be disappointed. I've tried a bit of horseplay in my wife's Model 3 before I got my car and there's not enough settings changes to allow it to play. Slip start mode backs the traction control off, but if you get it sideways which it can do very easily with a turn and a stab of the the throttle, it just cuts the power and applies the brakes until the car stops. The RWD would be a lot of fun if it could have a track profile, even with the less power. It's definitely not slow, it just doesn't have the excessive power of the AWD models.
 
I believe that it will distract and funnel money from pure ICE over to hybrid and EV setups for high performance.

The days of extracting those extra few HP out of innovation for performance ICE are done.
 
The Model Y Performance getting the track software helped finally pushed me over the edge to get one. I was going to hold out a bit longer to see if I could get a deal on the M3P, but MYP did get the performance upgrade now too. It did not get it initially. I felt early on that the Model Y's Performance moniker was a bit more tacked on, but at least pre Model 3 Highland it actually kept it's different performance suspension and eventually gained track mode. I haven't played with it extensively, but it does massively back off the traction control, kick up the fans to maintain battery and motor temp, and lower regenerative braking to reduce heat into the battery. The traction control changes allowed it to do a rolling 4 wheel burnout at 20mph. 😂

I think without these things if you're looking to really play with a Tesla as a car guy I'd be disappointed. I've tried a bit of horseplay in my wife's Model 3 before I got my car and there's not enough settings changes to allow it to play. Slip start mode backs the traction control off, but if you get it sideways which it can do very easily with a turn and a stab of the the throttle, it just cuts the power and applies the brakes until the car stops. The RWD would be a lot of fun if it could have a track profile, even with the less power. It's definitely not slow, it just doesn't have the excessive power of the AWD models.

I think after 2020 model 3's have dyno mode which allows you to control the motor with your right foot directly and no "aids" to spoil the fun?
https://www.teslarati.com/how-to-ac...t be in Park,activation password, “dynotest”.
I assume this would work with Rwd models too.
 
I think after 2020 model 3's have dyno mode which allows you to control the motor with your right foot directly and no "aids" to spoil the fun?
https://www.teslarati.com/how-to-ac...t be in Park,activation password, “dynotest”.
I assume this would work with Rwd models too.
There is a way to do that. I would think it would work for the RWD. I just haven't attempted it. From my understanding it involved using the service menu, but I don't know what other things are disabled during that if it's meant for rolling road testing. I saw a video from Out of Spec where they did it on a Model Y. I'd be apprehensive to push the car for any extended period of time without some testing first.
 
+1 And never will.
All those Pateks I see going to Walmart instead of the Apple watch every other person is wearing. Seriously though. I love watches and don't care for the Apple watch and I'm outnumbered on those. The nicely made mechanicals are the perfect analogy here. They're the speciality and sometimes vintage market while consumer goods move into their next phase. It happens in every industry. The shift has happened so many times we now have higher end G-Shocks as collector watches. No one saw that coming with the first G-Shock release. I have a box full of them, some costing more than I'd like to admit. Maybe 20 years from now I'll change my mind on Apple watches. EVs didn't happen for me over night.
 
I grew up with carbuerated stick-shifts. Then experienced EFI stick shifts. The EFI lost a significant amount of throttle response, transient, “quick” response. Dumping the accelerator pump, as it were, in the move to EFI really dampened the connectedness, but you still had the MT. 3-4 decades later, it’s all automatics. So on top of EFI softness, you’ve got trans softness. Driving my wife’s RAV-H brings back memories to the carbuerated days in terms of that snappy throttle GO, that EFI lost. I gotta admit, I’m quite enamored by it. Stupid high mike range, MPG and far superior transient launch, such as hooking a hard turn into moving traffic or a complex merge. Admittedly there is something fascinating when the engine cuts out and we are holding 50 mph in the straights. While im not a BEV guy right now, the hybrid sweet spot has a lot going for it. Brings back some of the MT, carbuerated performance feel.
 
EFI lost a significant amount of throttle response, transient, “quick” response
I’m not sure that’s true at all for cars with good setups. The throttle response on engines like BMW S54/S65/S85 with ITBs is among the best and feels like old school cable. Same for some Porsches. It’s only turbos and more recent emissions requirements that have ruined it for some and that’s a more recent trend.
 
If we are talking dollars to seconds in a quarter, Tesla can be easily beat by a ICE. You just have to build it.

If the measure of performance is the quarter mile, a Corvette has never been a performance cars really. Or A WS6 Trans Am, or a SVT Cobra or 2JZ Supra.....etc

How does the Tesla big dog top speed demon do in braking? How about on a track?

Nurburgring? The C7 Zr1 was 20 seconds faster. than the Plaid.

8 seconds slower than the C6 ZR1, and 15 year old car by the way.

I see no measure of performance in a Tesla other than pure acceleration.

So as of today, I see nothing that would lead me to believe that Tesla are more of a performance car than anything else.
 
If we are talking dollars to seconds in a quarter, Tesla can be easily beat by a ICE. You just have to build it.

If the measure of performance is the quarter mile, a Corvette has never been a performance cars really. Or A WS6 Trans Am, or a SVT Cobra or 2JZ Supra.....etc

How does the Tesla big dog top speed demon do in braking? How about on a track?

Nurburgring? The C7 Zr1 was 20 seconds faster. than the Plaid.

8 seconds slower than the C6 ZR1, and 15 year old car by the way.

I see no measure of performance in a Tesla other than pure acceleration.

So as of today, I see nothing that would lead me to believe that Tesla are more of a performance car than anything else.
Oh how right you are, you have to build it. How many are doing that these days? I know a few guys in various states of modification they've been in for years. Two still don't run. One other had no desire to run me in his 5th Gen SS which is funny. I think he has a chance. He hasn't talked much about what's done to it, but it makes the right noises, sounds far from stock, and I'd be proud to own it.

It's worth mentioning that you're comparing Corvettes to a family sedan with some serious power around a complex course. I'd be very concerned if a C7 ZR1 which is still a pinnacle of performance still trading over sticker didn't, which is twice the price of the Plaid new.

Tesla isn't the absolute measure of all performance and to think it should be hanging with low slung sports cars as sedans and SUVs around a track is pretty funny. There's some monster EVs out there are low slung sports cars and that's a much different story. I think if Tesla ever managed to actually quit screwing around and build the new Roadster that would be an interesting vehicle for these more technical challenges. Stuff like the Model Y Performance was developed for middle aged guys leaving work to embarrass sports cars at stoplights. 😂

It's more like a grown up version of that WS6 or an SVT or any of these other cars that were thought more of just straight line vehicles. It was to shut someone up at a stoplight. It's all anyone ever asks me if it comes up. Every time someone in the real world talks about what is the faster car it's a drag race. We don't have a Nurburgring to run here. We have Road America, but they don't just let any schmuck on there any time we want. To be fair I don't drag race from stoplights anyway. Maturity kicked in at some point.
 
Maybe they could film Vanishing Point II where a 2025 two door white Dodge Charger is chased by the cops across several states except they stand down when the Charger stops to charge.

0FF94F99-8810-4F50-9626-FB58B28A6F77.webp
 
Back
Top Bottom