Are EVs the death of the performance ICE market?

[fdcg27]

Just some random thoughts.
When sixty large, or far less if you buy a used one, will buy you a Tesla that will kill even most exotics 0-60, 0-100 or in the quarter, what's the point of a performance ICE car?
You can pay more for a variety of slower ICE cars, but what's the point? The rather dorky styling Tesla favors makes their cars even more of a slap in the face to makers and owners of old-school ICE performance cars.
Have EVs redefined acceleration to such an extent that performance ICE cars are effectively dead?
Kinda seems that way to me.
Also consider which would be a more usable and practical daily driver.
Interested in hearing what everyone thinks about this.

 

[nomas]

No .

 

[TheOilWizard]

Just some random thoughts.
When sixty large, or far less if you buy a used one, will buy you a Tesla that will kill even most exotics 0-60, 0-100 or in the quarter, what's the point of a performance ICE car?
You can pay more for a variety of slower ICE cars, but what's the point? The rather dorky styling Tesla favors makes their cars even more of a slap in the face to makers and owners of old-school ICE performance cars.
Have EVs redefined acceleration to such an extent that performance ICE cars are effectively dead?
Kinda seems that way to me.
Also consider which would be a more usable and practical daily driver.
Interested in hearing what everyone thinks about this.

Kind of, yes.

I've said it before on here, but electric performance cars make ICE seem silly.

I own a '21 Mach 1 with around 500 HP. I don't own a single EV, but I know a soccer-mom Model S will beat my car from the line.

Many don't want to admit this reality.

 

[JeffKeryk]

Perhaps it's fair to say electric drive trains can extend performance cars, at least today.
The new Corvette E-Ray is a hybrid. 0-60 in 2.5 seconds; 10.5 qtr mile time.

Now, as the M3 vs M3P thread shows us, an EV can match today's top cars for a lot less money, but only for a limited range. Which really means it depends on your use case coupled with what you want.
Regarding cost, I imagine the top Model S Plaid would have annihilated both cars' lap times and still be cheaper than the M3.
The E-Ray, given it is a sports car, would likely annihilate the M3 and M3P as well. Time will tell.
Now the BMW Neue Klasse EVs will certainly set the bar high for sports sedans. Heck BMW is talking 1340 HP with a motor at each wheel for the top model! With that kinda pull, no one will ever know if your stinkin' blinker was on when they flew around you.

I do believe our M3P is a great car all in, both daily and spirited driving. It's really good.
Going forward, cars like the Tesla Roadster II (delayed again), if it ever sees the light of day, will change everything. It will take more advancements in computer software power control because with so much flat torque available across the rpm range, current technology would seem to be limiting.

Are these cars replacements for the great cars of today and yesterday? No, they are just different. Everything changes.

 

[supton]

Everything comes to an end, some day.

But people still race horses and sailboats, do fly fishing and who knows what else.

It may just get different. Took a while before people stopped building up Ford flathead V8's when souping up a car.

And people still do build those flathead V8's. Sometimes they just want to be different, they want to relive the past, or just don't care about firstest with the mostest. The journey being more important than the destination, that sort of thing.

But for those who always just bought, did not build, did not sweat out every detail--and do not have a love for continually doing that? yeah sure, for that group, they likely will be done with ICE.

Just my opinion.

 

[RhondaHonda]

Here we go…

 

[97prizm]

Just some random thoughts.
When sixty large, or far less if you buy a used one, will buy you a Tesla that will kill even most exotics 0-60, 0-100 or in the quarter, what's the point of a performance ICE car?
You can pay more for a variety of slower ICE cars, but what's the point? The rather dorky styling Tesla favors makes their cars even more of a slap in the face to makers and owners of old-school ICE performance cars.
Have EVs redefined acceleration to such an extent that performance ICE cars are effectively dead?
Kinda seems that way to me.
Also consider which would be a more usable and practical daily driver.
Interested in hearing what everyone thinks about this.

No Ev's are a one trick pony. Sure fast 0-60 but heavy, limited performance range think endurance racing, slow charging etc. Most hyper and even high end sports cars are hybrid ice/battery. The Hennessy F5 was just mentioned by topspeed as it's the highest horsepower and performance manual transmission vehicle currently on sale. The E-series racing lasted what 2-3 years ( or is it still around? ) A few years ago battery swapping was still being seriously looked at. Ev batteries are essentially giant rechargeable Ryobi batteries. If they get lighter and smaller maybe that could become a possibility?

 

[oldhp]

I'll race any EV 0 to 500 miles.

 

[Vercingetorix]

It’s only two years away, just like Full Self Driving.

 

[Carmudgeon]

If anything, they'll become a more entrenched niche, for those with the means, and desire to own what will become outliers. For most folks, it won't matter.

Quartz watches haven't killed off mechanical watches.

Synthesizers and digital pianos are pitch perfect, never need tuning, and more practical. But they still make pianos the old-fashioned way, don't they?

What would you think if you went to see a concert pianist play at Carnegie Hall, and found after you arrived there was a Casio on stage, and not a Steinway?

 

[fantastic]

Performance isn't the only metric for the EV transition & I'd imagine there will be "Efficient EV's" that will shuttle us through the Taco Bell drive through. Although performance is what the makers learned would help to sell at first to get the market ready. Performance alone is not the death of ICE. There are plenty of high performance vehicles that are available in ice over the last few years. Will it end eventually, yes. Manufacturers have set "target dates" but it seems it's getting delayed to squeeze out every last profit margin out of ICE. Interesting times we live in. I do hope EV success & am hoping the future holds affordable cars but unless they offer Chinese competition probably won't hold my breath.

 

[tnt_motorsports]

for me the rumble of a small block pushrod engine will never get old, along with the smell of high octane fuel. No EV performance cars for me.

Just my $0.02

 

[nomas]

0-60 blah , blah . How about the 24hrs of LeMans ? Indianapolis 500 , etc. Various SCORE races .

 

[chris719]

No, because Tesla's still drive like random commuter cars. Being fast does not make it a sports car. No one ever bought a Lotus for its straight line performance.

 

[IndyIan]

Straight line stuff is kind of fun, but it seems the new model 3 performance also handles with the best of them. Someone here posted a youtube video of the new Model 3 performance, vs the most racey BMW M3 version, and while the M3 was faster around a track(on better tires, I think they didn't want to try equal tires as BMW might have lost over 1 lap) the Model 3 has a slightly slower endurance mode so you can run it consistently for a 15-20 minute lapping session.
Anyways their take away the Model 3 was the better overall car with nearly the same performance for half the price. The model 3 even had better steering feel and was very entertaining to drive.
Maybe I'm naive, but I would think the Model 3 would be much cheaper to own in the long run as well?

 

[UncleDave]

Just some random thoughts.
When sixty large, or far less if you buy a used one, will buy you a Tesla that will kill even most exotics 0-60, 0-100 or in the quarter, what's the point of a performance ICE car?
You can pay more for a variety of slower ICE cars, but what's the point? The rather dorky styling Tesla favors makes their cars even more of a slap in the face to makers and owners of old-school ICE performance cars.
Have EVs redefined acceleration to such an extent that performance ICE cars are effectively dead?
Kinda seems that way to me.
Also consider which would be a more usable and practical daily driver.
Interested in hearing what everyone thinks about this.

I believe the market will find itself segmenting between the two available choices.

The bargain performance per dollar crown moves to the EV and its inherent traits, What you can get for 60K brings unheard of levels of performance at least in terms of quickness for a limited duration.

ICE is its own category of fast with its inherent traits the ability to sustain high speeds for tank driving amounts of time if you can even find a place where this is possible. You have to spend big money to get EV level performance and cars that can do it tend to be very expensive to run maintain and insure.

One (imperfect) parallel would be the watch industry with the electric battery powered being more affordable and practical to the masses offering higher performance per dollar spent and an affordable way to experience quick and fast vehicles previous only available to motorcycles and super cars.

..and on the other end you have the "mechanicals" being desirable for entirely different reasons with the theoretical maximum spend unlimited and the possibility of owning one of a limited number builds. In a car you drive once in a while for fun the ICE car can last as a garage toy for multiple decades with almost no inherent degradation to its capabilities, whereas the EV begins an unstoppable slide toward a dead battery every time you first birthday a battery, whether you use the vehicle or not - you may never need to rebuild the small block in a Vette in your lifetime.

 

[Oillover]

Maybe I'm naive, but I would think the Model 3 would be much cheaper to own in the long run as well?

If you include disposal/resale value in the equation, then yes, that's quite a naive statement.

 

[eljefino]

When you have technology you enjoy, it's helpful having rich people also enjoy said tech, so they can pay for the R&D for slightly better versions.

With some of them defecting to EVs, it does hurt supercar ICE development, but we don't know how much.

They still make phonographs and film cameras, but they're a niche thing, only slowly improving.

I still predict a BMW/ Tesla merger or at least tech/ marketing sharing. They share a driver base but have radically different outlooks on how to attract them.

 

[camrydriver111]

Most EVs are not even marketed against performance ICE. They are marketed as general luxury cars.

Performance ICE could get smaller, but it will always be there. They are essentially toy cars that people buy for the driving experience, and EVs cannot replicate the experience of driving with a car with ICE.

I don't think a Tesla is a substitution for a 911 GT3.

It doesn't look like we will get EV trucks and other utility vehicles anytime soon either. EV technology does not scale well, and the battery weight becomes so high that the vehicles are impractical. The range also plummets once you start loading EVs with any sort of serious cargo.

 

[joekingcorvette]

The new Corvette E-ray has a very small battery and it doesn't last very long. It mainly used for autocrossing and some quick drag racing 1/4 mile events. I think hybrids might be the way to go. I still like the roar of a V-8 engine and the shifting of gears in an automatic transmission versus a CVT with an electric motor. I do like obtaining obnoxious fuel/electric/hybrid economy. I have driven Tesla's and yes, they do accelerate very well. To each his own folks.