Anyone explain this thinking please? Some saying "no to VIIs" when others recommend VIIs.

[SammyChevelleTypeS3]

In regards to GDI-T engines. Been trying to avoid all the thick vs thin vs oil dilution merry go rounds that pop up time and time again. But then I keep seeing more of the point, counter points turn up again. So, can we get a couple of the experts.....help? I would bet there are more than a few retired lubrication experts here who probably like to keep low profiles who could maybe straighten us out fairly easily and put an end to the round and round discussions on the same exact subject? So here is the latest that got me on it AGAIN:

Why are some so adamant to using oils that state they are produced without any VII additives? This while we also have some others pushing and praise the use of these VII enhanced oils?

I have been even more confused by this lately thru some major oil manufacturers dance , tip toe around what should be a simple subject to answer , especially for them , yet no two offer the same point of views. Then of course , there HAS TO BE the two separate camps of different opinions on the very subject here at BITOG.

So in my searching , I went to the web pages of the company IMHO who does not seem to mind sharing info very quickly or even to educate those in need (like me). We all know who they are by now. The HPL company. I do not work for them or get paid commission from any company at all. Happily retired for many years,

This is printed on the back of the back of one of their products. The first one I randomly picked to start with that mentions the use of VIIs. It is the HPL EURO SAE 0w20 full syn PCMO.
Comments:
High Performance Lubricants’ Euro passenger car engine oil is a multi-synthetic high performance motor oil made with the best choices of additive chemistry. This series takes advantage of high quality PAO base oils delivering superb pour points as well as an advanced VI Improver that has superior shear stability index. These oils are formulated with specifically chosen esters that can help minimize intake valve deposits, maintain clean engines, and provide elastomer compatibility. HPL Euro PCMO is formulated with extra anti-wear and antioxidant additives to minimize wear while offering an extended oil life compared to other motor oils. These premium oils are not something you will find on the shelf of a discount retailer. If you are a person looking for a product that will outperform traditional mineral and synthetic oils our products will be a perfect fit for you.

Next I looked for one that is said to be "No VII oils that some praise and urge GDI-T owners to use. This one is the HPL SAE 5w20 No VII PCMO. This is printed on the back that I chose specifically due to the fact several members are promoting the use of non VII oil stating that it is the best to use in GDI-T engine cars.
Comments:
High Performance Lubricants’ No VII engine oil is a multi-synthetic high performance motor oil made with the best choices of additive chemistry. This series takes advantage of high quality base oils delivering superb pour points and specifically designed without utilizing VI improver for superior shear stability. These oils are formulated with specifically chosen esters that can help minimize intake valve deposits, maintain clean engines, and provide elastomer compatibility. HPL No VII engine oil is formulated with extra anti-wear and antioxidant additives to minimize wear while offering an extended oil life compared to other motor oils. These premium oils are not something you will find on the shelf of a discount retailer. If you are a person looking for a product that will outperform traditional mineral and synthetic oils our products will be a perfect fit for you.

So, please if not too much trouble or too aggravating* to explain the two different points of view? Why? if truly one is better at protecting from wear or keeping the GDI-T engines cleaner than others when the descriptions are almost word for word identical? Why would someone need or want to choose the No VII over the added VII engine oil since they seem to do almost the exact same thing for our engines?
*LoL Some of these discussions, even simple questions can certainly seem to get under the skin and grind the gears of some members to no end at times.
Maybe this time someone who is legitimately in the know and not just speculating will feel up to answering in the hopes the latest BITOG shoot out does not develop and need to be shutdown as the bullets fly?

 

[facility1]

real good question, many engine oil blenders/manufactures have very little true useful transparency of their products, hey its propriety information yet we buy into the unknown, for our hard-earned money to protect our vehicles from undue engine wear only to satisfy government regulations and viscosity EPA requirements etc. and of course, profits. best course of action is read/study & hope and look for proper licenses, and approvals from manufacture of the vehicle and reputation of the oil blender/producer. myself I refuse to purchase any oil with very little info (including some of the majors) or proper legitimate licenses, specs, even approvals.

 

[Jetronic]

It's not the use of VII in itself that's the issue, it's the choice of the particular VII used in on the shelf oils. The Motor Oil Geek has a new video out which kinda goes into that.



The OCP VII used (specifically in Ilsac oils) are prone to shearing, so you don't really get the viscosity grade you bought, in most engines it will drop a grade quickly. And they also don't burn clean at all, adding to the combustion chamber, valve and ringland deposits.

As mentioned in the above video, dexos oils require a more shear stable VII, but it's not a whole lot better, and the fouling issue is still there.

But there's other VII chemistry out there, that's more shear stable and less prone to fouling aswell, but how would you know what you got? The issue can be totally avoided by using no VII oils



Here you can see the effect different VII chemistry can have on shear, or viscosity loss.

Fouling of the ringlands, fllowed by deposits in the combustion chamber and on the intake valves is the number one oil related problem these days imo.

I can't get HPL but I do use an oil that is not prone to shear thinning, and not prone to fouling the engine or foaming. It's a synthetic 10W-30.

 

[Astro14]

This has been covered in so many threads…

I’ll make it as simple as I can.

VII improve viscosity index, that is - keeping a thin oil thicker under heat. There are many such VII. They work. They are common. It’s how a mostly conventional oil can be a 5W30. Thin enough when cold to meet the 5W. Thick enough at 100C to meet 30.

But some VII will break down with time (or mechanical shearing in some engines), leading to a thinner oil at operating temperature.

Because of the nature of testing, and standards, some of the more expensive synthetic base oils can meet the cold standards (5W) and the hot standard (30) without the use of the VII.

So, an oil thus formulated avoids the risk of a VII breaking down and leading to a thinner oil.

That said, there are two important things to keep in mind:

1. Not all VII are created equally. Some (star polymer VII) are much more stable and resistant to breakdown.
2. There is only one company offering a No VII multi grade oil. That company formulated it in response to customer request.

If you would like to use HPL’s No VII series - that’s your choice. It’s a fine oil. But I wouldn’t worry about VII, one way or another, in your cars.

In general, oils that easily break down in viscosity often have inferior VII. Just getting an oil with good VII is sufficient for most applications.

 

[Astro14]

I have to ask, though - how did the 542 posts in this thread fail to answer your question?

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/t...-lubricants-no-vii-series-engine-oils.364074/

Ignore the trolls, and focus on what people like @High Performance Lubricants or other long time posters say.

 

[RDY4WAR]

In relation to GDI engines, the key issue is fuel dilution and how it plays with VII polymers and shearing. The combination can be too high for viscosity retention. Looking at some hypothetical oils using some components from the video above.

Oil #1 - Cookie cutter API SP / D1G3 5W-20 oil (Noack = 9-11%)

Yubase 4 - 4.23 cSt - 45%wt (87.5%wt of base)
Yubase 6 - 6.52 cSt - 35%wt (12.5%wt of base)
HiTEC 11183 - 87.0 cSt - 10%wt (additive package)
HiTEC 5754A - 1090 cSt - 10%wt (VII)

Base viscosity = 5.24 cSt
Base + add pack = 6.31 cSt
Final KV100 = 8.64 cSt

8.64 - 6.31 = 2.33 x 0.65 (35 SSI) = 1.51 + 6.31 = 7.82 cSt

This oil is expected to lose ~0.82 cSt (-9.5%) in viscosity which cuts its 20 grade buffer room by half. If this oil has 5% fuel dilution (0.6 cSt), the resulting KV100 is then 6.87 cSt. You are now out of grade.

Oil #2 - Boutique No VII API SP / D1G3 (meets, exceeds, yada yada) 5W-20 oil (Noack = 5-6%)

SpectraSyn 6 - 5.8 cSt - 72%wt (80%wt of base)
Exterex NP343 - 4.3 cSt - 8%wt (8.9%wt of base)
Spec. Elite 150 - 156 cSt - 10%wt (11.1%wt of base)
HiTEC 11183 - 87.0 cSt - 10%wt

Base viscosity = 7.16 cSt
Final KV100 = 8.59 cSt

We expect very minimal shearing from this, if any at all. We'll say it's 2% (high estimate) just for the sake of scratching that itch.

8.59 x 0.02 = 0.17 cSt
8.59 - 0.17 = 8.42 cSt

If this oil has 5% fuel dilution, the resulting KV100 is 7.35 cSt. You still have some buffer for a 20 grade. In fact, fuel dilution would need to hit 7.4% before diluting out of grade. By comparison, oil #1 is out of grade at 4.8%.

An oil that employs a very low SSI VI improver (<5) can hold out close to that of No VII, but not entirely. What I'm using here is raw numbers that doesn't account for variables involving the manner in which VII improves upon the base viscosity. This is difficult to determine, but it's expected the VI improvement will differ slightly between diluted and undiluted oil which is added on top of the viscosity lost to shearing.

 

[4WD]

5W30 is the same price …

 

[4WD]

It's not the use of VII in itself that's the issue, it's the choice of the particular VII used in on the shelf oils. The Motor Oil Geek has a new video out which kinda goes into that.



The OCP VII used (specifically in Ilsac oils) are prone to shearing, so you don't really get the viscosity grade you bought, in most engines it will drop a grade quickly. And they also don't burn clean at all, adding to the combustion chamber, valve and ringland deposits.

As mentioned in the above video, dexos oils require a more shear stable VII, but it's not a whole lot better, and the fouling issue is still there.

But there's other VII chemistry out there, that's more shear stable and less prone to fouling aswell, but how would you know what you got? The issue can be totally avoided by using no VII oils



Here you can see the effect different VII chemistry can have on shear, or viscosity loss.

Fouling of the ringlands, fllowed by deposits in the combustion chamber and on the intake valves is the number one oil related problem these days imo.

I can't get HPL but I do use an oil that is not prone to shear thinning, and not prone to fouling the engine or foaming. It's a synthetic 10W-30.

Pretty sure the German OEM’s don’t come here or YT to get opinions on some of the lubes he pretends have unknown issues …
The gotcha garbage is the worst part of LSJ …

 

[RDY4WAR]

Pretty sure the German OEM’s don’t come here or YT to get opinions on some of the lubes he pretends have unknown issues …
The gotcha garbage is the worst part of LSJ …

He states in that video that you can use whatever alphabet soup of oil license your OEM calls for and be fine. What he, like many others on here, considers good enough differs from what many OEMs may consider good enough. He's not saying he's smarter than OEMs, merely that they have different objectives.

If the only advice anyone ever needed was to "follow the OEM recommendation," then BITOG wouldn't exist.

 

[buster]

"I've been reading lots of posts recently about Viscosity Index Improvers (also called Viscosity Modifiers) and there is an idea perpetuated (and that is often repeated) that needs correcting:

Oils with little to no Viscosity Modifiers are not better than those that do have them. Neither can you compare oil performance based on how much or how little VM they have.

In fact, there are very few (if any) engine oils that do not contain some kind of viscosity modifier. The reason for this: it is next to impossible to meet the current viscosity profiles in the J300 without them. Unfortunately contrary to common belief - Group III synthetics, PAO's and esters all have excellent viscosity performance relative to temperature changes - but they almost always require some kind of VM to enable the non-newtonion viscosity performance required by todays engines.

So why do VM's continue to get such a bad wrap? It stems from a misunderstanding of what a VM is, how it operates and what types are being used. A long time ago VM's were simple polymers which could alter to the viscosity-temperature relationship of monograde oils. This is how multi-grade oils were born. However, in today's market VM's are much more complex than that - just look at this list:

Types and typical usages of VMs include:

• Polyisobutylene (PIB) was the predominant VM for engine oil 40 to 50 years ago. PIBs are still used in gear oils due to their outstanding load carrying characteristics. PIBs have been replaced by Olefin Copolymers (OCP) in engine oils due to their superior cost effectiveness and performance.
• Polymethacrylate (PMA) polymers contain alkyl side chains that interfere with the formation of wax crystals in the oil, providing excellent low-temperature properties. PMAs are used in super fuel economy engine oils, gear oil and transmissions fluid formulations. Generally, they have a higher cost than OCPs.
• Olefin Copolymers (OCP) see extensive use in engine oils due to their low cost and satisfactory engine performance. Many OCPs are on the market, differing in molecular weight and the ratio of ethylene to propylene content. OCPs are the dominate polymer used for viscosity modifiers in engine oils.
• Styrene Maleic Anhydride Ester Copolymers (Styrene Esters) are multi-functional VMs. A combination of various alkyl groups provides excellent low-temperature properties. Typical usages for Styrene Esters are fuel efficient engine oils, automatic transmission fluids, and in pour point depressants. Generally, they also carry a higher cost than OCPs.
• Hydrogenated Styrene-Diene Copolymers (SBR) are characterized by fuel economy benefits, good low-temperature properties, and superior deposit control performance compared to most other polymers.Hydrogenated Radial Polyisoprene polymers have good shear stability at relatively low treatment rates compared to some other types of VMs. Their low-temperature properties are similar to OCP.

As you can see there are many types of VM - each with a different purpose, treat rate and function. In many cases the VM imparts multiple advantages that go above and beyond just fluid thickening and selecting the right VM can be critical to the success of a fluid protecting engine parts.

All engine oil manufacturers use VM's in their formulas. And depending on the base oil mix and desired SAE grade there are different treat rates ranging from 6%-15%. Less VM does not necessarily mean better. Usually the formula is optimized to meet the required SAE J300 grade and support the base oils which the marketer has chosen to use. Molecules of different shapes, patterns and lengths are all chosen to suit the performance requirements of the oil. The treat rate also changes based on what viscosity grade and base oils are used.

As you look across the 0W grades notice that the Heavier weighted oils 0W30, 0W40 each have a higher concentration of the lightest base oil than the 0W20. Also notice that the concentration of VM also increases. This is also true of the 5W30 vs 5W40

Why would that be? Logically it makes more sense to use base oils that closer to the final viscosity grade right? Actually the answer is the opposite. In order to meet the viscosity performance profile a marriage between a high quality VM and base oils is the answer. Also note that all of the base oils used are much lighter than the minimum requirements to meet the required grade so it is basically impossible to meet the current SAE grade without the use of some kind of VM.

So how do companies get away with saying they little to no VM in an attempt to woo you to their products? Well, most of these companies are referring to PIBs and short chain OCP's which can be replaced by other polymers which much more shear-stable. Some companies use PMA's and Styrene Esters, which very different than traditional OCP's. XOM Chemical also produces mPAO's which are sometimes used as VM's.

For more information read http://www.pceo.com/articles/viscosity-modifier-four-part-article-series
(this has been posted before)

As you can see, VII's are much more complex than we often think, so if you don't know what you are talking about it can be easy to think that eliminating them or using oils that aren't supposed to have any would be better. This just isn't true and I doubt you will find an oil marketer anywhere that will give you real specifics about the type and concentration of their VM's in their formulas."

"Firstly - my point is that members who think their oil has little or no VM's (and therefore must be better) may be surprised to learn what the real ratios are. For example odds are your 10W30 has a higher concentration of VM's than a 0W20.

Second - VM's contribute much more than just thickening... ie "VMs can be used to improve efficiency, cleanliness and low temperature performance of lubricating oils, all the while providing durability and protecting equipment from severe wear." (quote from the PCEO.com link).

Third - different kinds of VM's have different treat rates. For example in the above "Hydrogenated Radial Polyisoprene polymers have good shear stability at relatively low treatment rates compared to some other types of VMs. Their low-temperature properties are similar to OCP." So comparing how much VM or VII might have very little to do with the actual performance of the VM.

So as above. Saying that an oil with little to no viscosity modifiers is better than one without is simply incorrect."


https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/viscosity-index-improvers-are-not-bad.238547/

 

[buster]

Nice thing about HPL is they tell you what VI is used and even give you an option of NO VII.

 

[SammyChevelleTypeS3]

I have to ask, though - how did the 542 posts in this thread fail to answer your question?

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/t...-lubricants-no-vii-series-engine-oils.364074/

Ignore the trolls, and focus on what people like @High Performance Lubricants or other long time posters say.

Thanks for the simple, well explained , short explanation. You covered it so well , I do not need to search or ask about the subject again. Appreciate it. But....Woah. 542 posts. Lots of posts for any subject. I am sure I did not catch many in all of those (which I am 100% certain I managed to miss the majority of). Thanks for your taking the time to answer. Another explanation could be that once I see a post some folks start the mud slinging at each other with different opinions, it turns into a blur of mush easy to get lost in. I do not fool much at all with social media. BITOG is actually the only web site I frequent and I confess I am not that good at navigating thru it though I am learning better to search for older posts etc.... I think I can say with some confidence you n the couple of folks who have just posted their clear concise explanations have likely answered the same question for several folks and that may stop or slow down anymore on the same subject.... wow 542 posts. Yeah. Sorry I missed a few!

 

[Jetronic]

"Firstly - my point is that members who think their oil has little or no VM's (and therefore must be better) may be surprised to learn what the real ratios are. For example odds are your 10W30 has a higher concentration of VM's than a 0W20.

Second - VM's contribute much more than just thickening... ie "VMs can be used to improve efficiency, cleanliness and low temperature performance of lubricating oils, all the while providing durability and protecting equipment from severe wear." (quote from the PCEO.com link).

Third - different kinds of VM's have different treat rates. For example in the above "Hydrogenated Radial Polyisoprene polymers have good shear stability at relatively low treatment rates compared to some other types of VMs. Their low-temperature properties are similar to OCP." So comparing how much VM or VII might have very little to do with the actual performance of the VM.

at a Noack of 3.3% I doubt there's much use of light oils propped up by VII in MY 10W-30. I agree with a mineral 10W-30 there could be a lot though

 

[SammyChevelleTypeS3]

I have to ask, though - how did the 542 posts in this thread fail to answer your question?

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/t...-lubricants-no-vii-series-engine-oils.364074/

Ignore the trolls, and focus on what people like @High Performance Lubricants or other long time posters say.

WoW. Sorry I made a post on this after all.
Must have been going on while I had those strange infections (had to be in hospital twice in a 4-5 month period for IV antibiotics). The wife said I was complete out of it for 7-10 days for the second / final we hope time in May 2024. I see I have a whole lot to read and catch up on about the creation of the No VIIs and apparently lots of opinions or questions with over 500 comments you pointed out. Thanks you guys for the fine answers and not any rocks (I deserved) thrown.

 

[benjy]

Jetronic, wondering what 10W30 oil your using with a 3.3% noack!! thanks in advance for a reply!

 

[SR5]

Jetronic, wondering what 10W30 oil your using with a 3.3% noack!! thanks in advance for a reply!

Yes I want to know as well !

For comparison the Group-III, API SP rated LiquiMoly MolyGen 10W30 has a Noack of 8.2%

Calling @Jetronic what are you running? Something like a PAO SAE30 monograde that passes the 10W winter pumping and cold cranking tests?

 

[Jetronic]

The one listed in my sig

https://www.ravenol.de/en/product/m...orenoel/ravenol-motobike-4-t-ester-sae-10w-30

 

[SR5]

Thanks mate, I should have realised. We were talking about running motorcycle oils in cars in the M1 15W50 thread.

RAVENOL Motobike 4-T Ester SAE 10W-30 API SN

It looks like a PAO/ester Blend
KV100 = 12.0 cSt. Flash Point = 260 C, PourPoint = -36 C, TBN = 7.9, Noack = 3.3%

That is a very high Flash Point and a very low Noack, I can see why you selected this oil.

 

[AEHaas]

'Not going to look them up but there are studies comparing an oil with and without VM that show less wear in oils that include VM in the formulation.

ali

 

[Jetronic]

'Not going to look them up but there are studies comparing an oil with and without VM that show less wear in oils that include VM in the formulation.

ali

And Nissan found more timing chain wear in oils that include VM.