Any Reason For 5w-20 besides CAFE?

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ZiTS: Good point about startup wear. I guess the first thing is we want to have a sheer stable oil. The best choices for sheer stability in dino any are 5w20, 10w30, 15w40, and 20w50. So among these, what do we choose. If you have a good oil pressure gauge, I would say use the lightest oil you can that gives you the manufacturers specified oil pressure. But a secondary consideration is protection from extreme situations (overheat, lugging, etc.). In that respect, I feel a lot better with a minimum HT/HS (depending on the brand) of 3.3 with 10w30 over a 5w20's 2.6 (maybe 2.8). As for cold starting, even Blackstone Labs site (I recall) feels that is the biggest wear event. Their recommendation, though, is for a preoiler, not thinner oil. The preoiler makes sense as it gives you the best of both worlds on wear minimization at cold start and runnning the slightly thicker oil for better hot protection. What I read in industry publications was that Ford went to 5w20 because they were backed into a corner by CAFE. GM and Chrysler were leary of 5w20, but perhaps will come around for some reason. Honda said they did not need 5w20 for fuel mileage, but were doing it to be good green citizens. We see vehicles getting 200,000 miles plus on 10wxx oils and hopefully they will do the same on 5w20. Maybe it is 6 of one and a half dozen of the other, tempered by how many cold starts you do vs how much hot running you do. But surely the cold starts should only be an issue in the dead of winter. If the new engines start fine on 5w20 in January, then they should start fine on 10w30 in April or May, and 15w40 in August, right. A 15w40 in August should flow better than a 5w20 in January. So even if these engines really need 5w20, it is only in the coldest months. That's my take. I am sticking with 5w-anything (or 0w-) is only suitable for extreme cold.
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I'm just curious. I don't seem to recall our site "thickerer is betterer" crowd posting UOA that they PAID for, unlike the rest of us posting used oil analysis, proving they are correct. I could be wrong, so show me. Heck, Patman and many other board participants have probably taken out second mortgages just to pay for all the used oil analysis they have posted
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. I think, as many of us on this site agree to, there is not one grade or brand of oil that is the ultimate panacea for every vehicle. Some may work better with a higher viscosity and others with a lighter viscosity. You can't argue that wear numbers that we've seen in UOA for engines spec'd for 5W-20 haven't been really good. I know you'll throw out an arbitrary mileage of 250,000-400,000 miles for "your" expected engine life. VERY few people keep their vehicles that long. Usually rust or boredom does the vehicle in long before that. And if in a short time period you do put on that kind of mileage then you're doing "genteel on the oil" mileage. So most "quality" manufacturer grade recommended SL rated oils will do fine and most likely save you gas and wear, as testified here.

Whimsey

[ March 14, 2004, 02:46 PM: Message edited by: Whimsey ]
 
I think the tak-home message in this thread should be that any oil can be used in any engine and that the appropriate grade should be exclusively determined upon the outside ambient temperature rather than a blanket grade assigned by an auto manuf. for year-round use.

That said, my owner's manual OK's a 5-20 up to -5C. After that, 30, 40 and 50 weights are spec'd. We all know that there is no Heavy-duty Fleet/Deisel oil that's a 5-20. Do you guys wonder why? Of course a 40 or 50 weight will provide more protection than a 20 weight. The question becomes do you need it. Since a 20 weight is a thin viscosity, it's upper temperature protection will be at question. Thinner oils most inevitably lead to consumption. How will a used oil analysis show consumption?
 
quote:

Originally posted by Dr. T:
Thinner oils most inevitably lead to consumption. How will a used oil analysis show consumption?

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I don't need a used oil analysis to tell me if my engine is consuming 5w20; I just need to check the dipstick.

So far, my 97 Olds van with 145,000 miles on it has not "consumed" any 5w20 at 2000 miles. The level is still at the full mark on the dipstick.
 
The point of my final post is that a 5-20 is not a server duty grade. Just like one is supposed to decrease the OCI when performing under severe duty, an increase NOT a decrease in grade is also necessary when increasing the 'oil duty' ie. temps, towing, 10k oci's.

As far as your consumption joke...2k is nothing. Do 10k and then laugh if your consumption is zero...especially after 3, 4 or 5 intervals of 10k. Maybe you don't fall in the above category.
 
quote:

As far as your consumption joke...2k is nothing. Do 10k and then laugh if your consumption is zero...especially after 3, 4 or 5 intervals of 10k. Maybe you don't fall in the above category.

There is one Mobil 1 0w20 report at 8K miles. Consumpiton ZERO. Most likely a 20wt will thicken into a 30wt. You have to match the viscosity with the engine/conditions. Dr.T, you assume thicker is better in every case and that is where your wrong. Period.
 
quote:

Originally posted by Dr. T:
As far as your consumption joke...2k is nothing. Do 10k and then laugh if your consumption is zero...especially after 3, 4 or 5 intervals of 10k. Maybe you don't fall in the above category.

You're the one with the jokes, with your constant throwing out of 10,000 miles as some sort of standard benchmark for any and every oil. There are very few oils sold OTC in North America that are capable of 10,000 mile OCIs under typical driving conditions—you do know that, right?

The only Xw20 oil I'd even consider running 10,000 miles given my driving conditions would be Mobil 1. As for the typical 5w20, I think I can safely go 5000 miles with my driving conditions. I'm using the 5w20 in my van for the Auto-RX rinse cycle and I probably won't be using that grade after that. However, if the 3000 mile results for the 5w20 Pennzoil are good in my Chrysler, then I probably WILL be sticking with that oil and will shoot for 5000 mile OCIs with it.
 
Dr.T.,
I still haven't seen any used oil analysis from you. It's easy to critique others but I want to see YOUR used oil analysis. As they say, "put your money where your mouth is". I want to see your used oil analysis with the 10W-60 BMW oil you use and extol as an exemplary motor oil. No matter how many miles your UOA is for I still would be interested in seeing it. There are many examples of 5W-20 and 5w30 used oil analysis available here. So where are your's?

Whimsey
 
This is my biggest beef on this site with the thick oil crowd. No used oil analysis from them! But yet they just seem to know for fact that their thick oils are giving them lower engine wear.
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quote:

Originally posted by Patman:
This is my biggest beef on this site with the thick oil crowd. No used oil analysis from them! But yet they just seem to know for fact that their thick oils are giving them lower engine wear.
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Some ! also don't even read! these posts !thouroly !before replying !to them either !as you might have! witnessed !.
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Crossbow has pointed out the use of light oils in Asia . TC has provided many links . I have too along with countering the why does Ford not use thin oils in Europe with links showing the many Ford and Jaguar specific oils now available . I've also pointed to 4 engine oil analysis's of the same engine using the same brand 15w40 in Florida where it's warm most all the time and when the engine was switched to PCMO 30wts the wear metals lowered in the last two used oil analysis .


I have also posted the Mobil Au site and their recommendations for new Toyota cars which is 30wt not 50wt . The ELF site , AGIP , Aral and others are highly touting their new light weight oils with long drain benefits and better fuel efficiency . It's happening all over the world not just in the U.S.A .

Whats that river in Egypt named ?
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[ March 15, 2004, 07:39 AM: Message edited by: Motorbike ]
 
I'd like to throw some examples in here on one of the primary benefits of a lightweight oil...

Generally stop and go is considered "more harsh" on an engine, with short trips, lots of reving followed by braking, and multiple duty cycles in a day. Since its generally considered that most of the wear on an engine occurs during inital startup...here's some UOA examples of similar lighter vs heavier oils in highway situations, and in stop and go situations.

Here's a 90% highway report on 0w-20.
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~greghess/oilreport.pdf
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000824

Here's a 90% highway report on 5w30
http://www.wam.umd.edu/~greghess/forum/oil/5w30uoa.gif
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=3&t=001252#000000

Now lets switch to primarily city, stop and go, with lots of duty cycling. (This one is on the SAME car and the SAME driver...just two oil types).

90% Stop and Go on 5w30
http://gcubed.sytes.net/gcubed/scottoil.pdf
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000922

90% Stop and Go on 0w-20
http://www.mazda6tech.com/gcubed/scott2uoa.pdf
http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=001245

Engine is a 220 bhp, Duratec based 3.0 V6, with Variable Valve Timing, and some other goodies.

Most of these used oil analysis feature modified car's, pushing around 244 bhp...
 
I don't have jokes...go to the shelves yourself. Do you see a 5-20 labelled as Heavy Duty/Mack truck/Diesel oil approved?

The truth is that 5-20's are a fuel economy oil, and 15-40's are the heavy duty/diesel/fleet oils. 15-50's are racing grades. Likewise, a 0-30/5-20 would be a fine winter oil, but for summer a 5-40 would be a wiser choise.

Is thicker always better, no but protection always is. How does a used oil analysis show what grade you should be using?
 
As far as the issue of used oil analysis, let me share my HD fleet trucking experience:

I use used oil analysis primarily for maintenance planning. That is, since I use an expensive Delvac 1 fill, it only makes economic sense for me to dramatically extend the OCI, say 3-4X. Once the TBN decays, it's time to change out.

You can use used oil analysis to establish trends, but it is USELESS to determine things like Ring Stick or a connecting rod about to fracture. I have seen motors with "good" used oil analysis that had rings stuck and even broken, along with heavy deposits.

Another good application for used oil analysis is to see how efficient your air filtration system is working. A minor problem, say a cracked intake duct, can be caught early before major engine damage occurs.

Yep, I have caught that one. A small crack in the duct where you couldn't see it. In that case, the used oil analysis saved the motor.

When HD diesel motors first had the nasty problem with Top Grove Fill, used oil analysis was completely useless to answer the WHY question. Or even the HOW question. You needed test motors that were run on experimental oils and torn down to determine effects.

You also needed specially instrumented test motors that finally told us how hot the oil film was in the Ring Land area, which was the true cause of Top Grove Fill. So HDEO could then be reformulated to resist breakdown in the Top Grove area.

I still find it suspicious that CAFE is only used in North America. True, some makers have developed specially-formulated oils for certain markets and certain motors.

As an example: VW developed their VW 506.x spec with Castrol and came up with Castrol LongLife II 0W-30. The oil is designed for up to 2 year / 50,000km OCI in some gasoline and LD diesel motors. VW also cautions you this oil MUST not be used in other VW motors not specifically approved.

We then have that wonderful EPA memo that us civillians were never meant to see. So they take the results of the 16 hour test, the results of the 96 hour test, and ADD THEM UP. Then they add an EXTRA 0.5%. So even an oil that does NOTHING will still "earn" a theoretical 0.5% and be stamped with the GF-3 / SL "Starburst." The EPA is a LOT more concerned about indoctrination than about true savings:

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/cert/dearmfr/ccd0112.pdf

Of course, due to "clean air" requirements the EPA also approved MTBE. Ooops, that was a mistake, now they're quietly getting rid of MTBE. Oh well, I'm sure MTBE in our drinking water was a "small" price to pay for "cleaner" air.

Ever notice if you live in a non-compliant area you have to run oxygenates that typically lower fuel economy 10-15%? How does burning MORE fuel lower emissions???

Notice how CAFE has had the opposite of the intended effect: rather than reducing our fuel consumption, the CAFE nonsense and tiered emissions (Ford Excursion is a "green" vehicle!)has given us a fleet of pickup trucks and giant SUV's. We keep burning MORE fuel.

If you want to save fuel, drive a small 1 litre 3 cylinder s*** box. Though I must admit there are decent tiny cars out there.

I don't automatically bash thin oils and indeed would consider using Mobil 1 0W-20 when it dips to -40 here. In those temps, the slight increase in operating temp wear will be more than offset by decreased cold-start wear.

Machinery Lubrication has had VERY good articles about long-term concerns:

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/article_detail.asp?articleid=518&relatedbookgroup=Maintenance

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/article_detail.asp?articleid=529&relatedbookgroup=Lubrication

Remember that on average all the magic fuel economy "gain" results from intended shear. If an oil is "shear stable" then it can't be "fuel saving!" That's why when you examine the Sequence VIB Fuel Economy test, the 96 hour test by itself shows no gain.

If you also examine how lame the API/SAE requirements are, the "Starburst" oil is allowed to thicken +275%, 25% is allowed to boil off, the test technician can add 6.5 litres of makeup oil (Why car makers claim 1 qt every 1,000 miles is "normal"), and you're allowed stuck rings.

Since we have this myth of the 3 month / 5,000km OCI, that would be where you get maximum "gain" from light oils that have intentional shear. Once the oil thickens in service, what have you gained?

That's why most folks have noticed the longer they leave an oil in service, the less oil they burn. The oil has thickened and become less volitile. So why not buy an oil intentionally with a higher-rated HTHS and more shear stable.

Or, to get maximum fuel economy "gain" why not get a cheap "Starburst" oil and change the oil once a week or every 500 miles? You would then have an oil with maximum shear and maximum fuel economy.

I would imagine that a large motor loafing along really would be unaffected by choice of viscosity, within reason of course. A 15W-50 or a 5W-20 would perform the same at +70 F ambient, light load, and 1,400 RPM.

BTW: despite all the rhetoric, nobody has offered a good explanation of why CAFE oils are only used in North America. The same exact motor from Toyota or Honda carries a FAR different viscosity recommendation outside of North America.

Why?

No, it's not the fuel. The Europeans lowered their sulfur levels a few years ago. We still have higher sulfer levels. Also MMT in Canada.

Indeed, most Toyota and Honda motors only recommend 5w30 (No mention of xW-20) below +10 C / +50 F. The Honda H22A1 and H22A2 should only use 5w30 below 0 C or +32 F.

Jerry
 
quote:

So even an oil that does NOTHING will still "earn" a theoretical 0.5% and be stamped with the GF-3 / SL "Starburst."

I think you have misinterpreted this. This is a letter to manufacturers of automobiles telling them what kind of oil they must use in fuel economy testing of their vehicles. (and not a specification for certifying an oil as "Starburst".) In other words, when testing a vehicle, the car maker can't use an oil 'better' than that specified in the chart.
 
Dr-T the last time I checked the 5.4 v-8 in my truck is not a Mack diesel, so why would I want to run a "Heavy Duty" 15w40 diesel oil? I guess even though my motor shows excellent used oil analysis with 5w20 it will still somehow be mad at me for not loving it enough to give it a thicker oil, and some day just give up in protest of my uncaring ways? Also someone mentioned that 5w20 is only good in high revving small engine applications, this is not the case at all. Ford v-10's which love to lug along at 1,000-1,200 RPM's up a hill even when weighted down have shown stellar used oil analysis with this "death" oil. I have changed over our fleet of high mileage Ford v-10 shuttle buses at work to Castrol GTX 5w20, mayby that will kill them because nothing else will, the drivers want new ones anyway!!
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I've read that machinelubrication.com article and while I agree with some if it, I think the guy fails to realize that you can make lighter viscosity oils protect very well with additive increases and that also engine clearances are tighter then ever so again, thicker just doesn't always fit every engine.
 
I agree with Dr. T.

Most of you tree hugging 0w20 users are trying to put words into his mouth that he did not say.

It's a form of argument used by politicians and other morons who don’t like the facts that are in front of them.
 
quote:

Originally posted by buster:
I think the guy fails to realize that you can make lighter viscosity oils protect very well with additive increases and that also engine clearances are tighter then ever so again, thicker just doesn't always fit every engine.

I believe the tolerance issue has been hashed over before and it was determined that tolerances hadn't changed.

I can guarantee you that tolerances on fielded engines that 5W-20 was specified for after the fact didn't change. For instance when Ford speced 5W-20 for fielded engines that were designed for xW-30.
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If it's taking special additives to make 0W-20 work in journal bearings (I doubt that it does), then there is a problem.

My thought on the topic is that 5W-20 works, xW-30 works and xW-40 works. I think most people will agree that xW-10 and xW-50 are too extreme for modern automotive engines.

I don't know about you, but when I'm aiming at a target, I like to aim at the middle, particularly when there is no significant downside to aiming at the middle.

When you aim at the bottom edge of the target, the odds of missing go up.

[ March 15, 2004, 10:58 PM: Message edited by: XS650 ]
 
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