Gotcha...so still a difference from 98GT to 01. I only know the 4.6L from Police Interceptors on the job...sorry to put bad info out there. I can say that my ex in laws had an 03 Lincoln that ran real well in SE Louisiana on Motorcraft 5w-20 blend.
5w-20 Confusion
- Thread starter Mustang Man
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5w20 on your GT will work fine. There is somebody here with a F550 or something that uses Motorcraft 5w20. It is like a dumptruck with 5.4L V8.
Beyond that, as already said. The engine will run for a couple hundred thousand miles either way. 5w20 or 5w30.
Beyond that, as already said. The engine will run for a couple hundred thousand miles either way. 5w20 or 5w30.
Manufacturers did not spec oils that were not available, so until 5-20s were in abundance, of course we did not see it spec'd.
This is only one reason, but a very important one.
This is only one reason, but a very important one.
Mustang Man, one thing you have to realize is that oils have changed since 2001. We are now at SM going on SN. I believe oils were at SJ at the time your car was made. 5w20s nowadays are excellent at protecting your car at much higher than normal operating temperatures. I believe some tests are done at 200 C or 250 C when in all likelihood your car will be lucky to reach 180 C on the highways.
Also a V8 performance or not does not need an oil different from an L4 or V6. All that extra performance is spread out over more cylinders and displacement. I'd be worried about Turbos if anything.
Why do you think Dr. Haas will suffer thermal breakdown? I don't mind you using 0w30 or 5w30 but please don't go telling people using 5w20 or 0w20 will cause thermal breakdown because there is no evidence it is true.
And for the question of why 5w20, CAFE is the main motivator but aluminum engine parts are what makes it more possible than before when blocks and heads were all iron.
Also a V8 performance or not does not need an oil different from an L4 or V6. All that extra performance is spread out over more cylinders and displacement. I'd be worried about Turbos if anything.
Why do you think Dr. Haas will suffer thermal breakdown? I don't mind you using 0w30 or 5w30 but please don't go telling people using 5w20 or 0w20 will cause thermal breakdown because there is no evidence it is true.
And for the question of why 5w20, CAFE is the main motivator but aluminum engine parts are what makes it more possible than before when blocks and heads were all iron.
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So do iron block engines usually spec heavier oils? My car`s engine has an iron block and aluminum heads.
Typically yes but I don't know if I can say that's a reason for allowing 5w20 or not. Of the cars I've had, the only ones that have spec'd 5w20 were the ones with aluminum block and aluminum head while my 2002 Lancer and 2000 Camry spec's 5w30 and was not of an aluminum block and head design
tolerances are tighter and the you need to get the oil to the overhead fast as you can...also the new vct needs5w20...
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Cars used to have spec's of 20w-50 ..in the 70's. We're now in a new century. Any cars ..even HD pickups ..or even most of the diesels out there require 20w-50 anymore?
Something happened.
That something was that engines got smaller. Not too many 400+ c.i. engines on the road nowadays. Was 5w30 around back then? That was before my time.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
5w-20 has been OEM spec'd by Ford for almost a decade ...in just about everything. Any mass migration to the junkyards with premature engine fatigue?
Probably not, but most Fords sold are 4 and 6 cylinders. My original question was in regards to higher performance V8s.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
What are you calling thermal break down? If you mean oils getting thinner as they are heated, that happens to all of them regardless of visc. If you're talking about being "damaged" or fatigued, what makes you think that a contemporary 20 grade would be any more susceptible to this event than any other oil?
Mainly because the whole idea now about using a 30 or 40 or 50 is because of more heat. The hotter the oil gets then the thinner it gets. Wouldn't oil fluidity become meaningless if it is not thick enough to lubricated engine components?[/quote]
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
You do realize that while vastly improved, if you've been using a conventional 5w30 you've been using a 20 grade at some point in the interval, don't you? The only difference is that the contemporary 5w-20's are 5w-20's in the bottle instead of shearing in service.
I do realize that 5w30 can shear down to a 20 over time, but doesn't that depend on the oil? Wouldn't synthetic 5w30 be less likely to do this? Aren't some 5w30s thicker than others?
Cars used to have spec's of 20w-50 ..in the 70's. We're now in a new century. Any cars ..even HD pickups ..or even most of the diesels out there require 20w-50 anymore?
Something happened.
That something was that engines got smaller. Not too many 400+ c.i. engines on the road nowadays. Was 5w30 around back then? That was before my time.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
5w-20 has been OEM spec'd by Ford for almost a decade ...in just about everything. Any mass migration to the junkyards with premature engine fatigue?
Probably not, but most Fords sold are 4 and 6 cylinders. My original question was in regards to higher performance V8s.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
What are you calling thermal break down? If you mean oils getting thinner as they are heated, that happens to all of them regardless of visc. If you're talking about being "damaged" or fatigued, what makes you think that a contemporary 20 grade would be any more susceptible to this event than any other oil?
Mainly because the whole idea now about using a 30 or 40 or 50 is because of more heat. The hotter the oil gets then the thinner it gets. Wouldn't oil fluidity become meaningless if it is not thick enough to lubricated engine components?[/quote]
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
You do realize that while vastly improved, if you've been using a conventional 5w30 you've been using a 20 grade at some point in the interval, don't you? The only difference is that the contemporary 5w-20's are 5w-20's in the bottle instead of shearing in service.
I do realize that 5w30 can shear down to a 20 over time, but doesn't that depend on the oil? Wouldn't synthetic 5w30 be less likely to do this? Aren't some 5w30s thicker than others?
Last edited by a moderator:
Originally Posted By: DreamerGT
The valve seals are going so I went a little thicker to stop it from smoking at start up. But its not help alot so I will go with a thicker 10w30 next time.
Could the 5w-20 the cop ran have caused this?
The valve seals are going so I went a little thicker to stop it from smoking at start up. But its not help alot so I will go with a thicker 10w30 next time.
Could the 5w-20 the cop ran have caused this?
Originally Posted By: sangyup81
Mustang Man, one thing you have to realize is that oils have changed since 2001. We are now at SM going on SN. I believe oils were at SJ at the time your car was made. 5w20s nowadays are excellent at protecting your car at much higher than normal operating temperatures. I believe some tests are done at 200 C or 250 C when in all likelihood your car will be lucky to reach 180 C on the highways.
Also a V8 performance or not does not need an oil different from an L4 or V6. All that extra performance is spread out over more cylinders and displacement. I'd be worried about Turbos if anything.
Why do you think Dr. Haas will suffer thermal breakdown? I don't mind you using 0w30 or 5w30 but please don't go telling people using 5w20 or 0w20 will cause thermal breakdown because there is no evidence it is true.
And for the question of why 5w20, CAFE is the main motivator but aluminum engine parts are what makes it more possible than before when blocks and heads were all iron.
Oh yes engine oils are much better. I think Dr. Haas will have a problem one day for a couple of reasons...
1) He races his Ferrari. The engine oil gets very hot racing as compared to regular driving.
2) His Ferrari is spec'd for a 40 weight oil. 20 weight at track racing temperature is VERY THIN. To me, it is easy to see the chances of oil failure are higher. Flow is meaningless if there is not enough thickness.
Mustang Man, one thing you have to realize is that oils have changed since 2001. We are now at SM going on SN. I believe oils were at SJ at the time your car was made. 5w20s nowadays are excellent at protecting your car at much higher than normal operating temperatures. I believe some tests are done at 200 C or 250 C when in all likelihood your car will be lucky to reach 180 C on the highways.
Also a V8 performance or not does not need an oil different from an L4 or V6. All that extra performance is spread out over more cylinders and displacement. I'd be worried about Turbos if anything.
Why do you think Dr. Haas will suffer thermal breakdown? I don't mind you using 0w30 or 5w30 but please don't go telling people using 5w20 or 0w20 will cause thermal breakdown because there is no evidence it is true.
And for the question of why 5w20, CAFE is the main motivator but aluminum engine parts are what makes it more possible than before when blocks and heads were all iron.
Oh yes engine oils are much better. I think Dr. Haas will have a problem one day for a couple of reasons...
1) He races his Ferrari. The engine oil gets very hot racing as compared to regular driving.
2) His Ferrari is spec'd for a 40 weight oil. 20 weight at track racing temperature is VERY THIN. To me, it is easy to see the chances of oil failure are higher. Flow is meaningless if there is not enough thickness.
Originally Posted By: boxcartommie22
tolerances are tighter and the you need to get the oil to the overhead fast as you can...also the new vct needs5w20...
I am sure tolerances may be tighter in some engines. There are a couple of things that come to mind...
1) When starting up, a 0w-20 will flow better than a 5w-20. When up and running, both are at 20.
2) Doesn't the Motorcraft 820 oil filter have a back flow valve to prevent the oil from draining back into the oil pan?
tolerances are tighter and the you need to get the oil to the overhead fast as you can...also the new vct needs5w20...
I am sure tolerances may be tighter in some engines. There are a couple of things that come to mind...
1) When starting up, a 0w-20 will flow better than a 5w-20. When up and running, both are at 20.
2) Doesn't the Motorcraft 820 oil filter have a back flow valve to prevent the oil from draining back into the oil pan?
Originally Posted By: CROWNVIC4LIFE
Originally Posted By: DreamerGT
mine does just fine with 5w20
+1
All our 4.6 panthers love the 5w20 Motorcraft...Thats in jungle heat and nightmare traffic.
When I had my 99 4.6 panther I went from 5w30 to 5w20...It turned out the car liked the 5w20 alot better...The car had 200K miles on it when a hurricane totaled it out for me.
But if you want to use 5w30 it will be just fine also
+2 here The Motorcraft 5w20 is great stuff! My '08 GMQ 4.6 (with mild tune) got that for most of its 42k, and I just switched over to Pennzoil Conventional 5w20. She doesn't get "babied"..often sees 80+mph daily on long highway steatches, and the 5w20 works just fine
Originally Posted By: DreamerGT
mine does just fine with 5w20
+1
All our 4.6 panthers love the 5w20 Motorcraft...Thats in jungle heat and nightmare traffic.
When I had my 99 4.6 panther I went from 5w30 to 5w20...It turned out the car liked the 5w20 alot better...The car had 200K miles on it when a hurricane totaled it out for me.
But if you want to use 5w30 it will be just fine also
+2 here The Motorcraft 5w20 is great stuff! My '08 GMQ 4.6 (with mild tune) got that for most of its 42k, and I just switched over to Pennzoil Conventional 5w20. She doesn't get "babied"..often sees 80+mph daily on long highway steatches, and the 5w20 works just fine
Originally Posted By: MustangMan
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Cars used to have spec's of 20w-50 ..in the 70's. We're now in a new century. Any cars ..even HD pickups ..or even most of the diesels out there require 20w-50 anymore?
Something happened.
That something was that engines got smaller. Not too many 400+ c.i. engines on the road nowadays. Was 5w30 around back then? That was before my time.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
5w-20 has been OEM spec'd by Ford for almost a decade ...in just about everything. Any mass migration to the junkyards with premature engine fatigue?
Probably not, but most Fords sold are 4 and 6 cylinders. My original question was in regards to higher performance V8s.
It's not the size that counts- at least not how you are using it. A 300hp 1.8 I4 will typically be more demanding of an oil than a 300hp 400ci V8. Of course quirky engine dimensions and geometry not withstanding.
You have to understand, that in spite of CAFE, Ford tests these cars under a myriad of conditions, none of them favorable and still they last.
Originally Posted By: MustangMan
Originally Posted By: sangyup81
Mustang Man, one thing you have to realize is that oils have changed since 2001. We are now at SM going on SN. I believe oils were at SJ at the time your car was made. 5w20s nowadays are excellent at protecting your car at much higher than normal operating temperatures. I believe some tests are done at 200 C or 250 C when in all likelihood your car will be lucky to reach 180 C on the highways.
Also a V8 performance or not does not need an oil different from an L4 or V6. All that extra performance is spread out over more cylinders and displacement. I'd be worried about Turbos if anything.
Why do you think Dr. Haas will suffer thermal breakdown? I don't mind you using 0w30 or 5w30 but please don't go telling people using 5w20 or 0w20 will cause thermal breakdown because there is no evidence it is true.
And for the question of why 5w20, CAFE is the main motivator but aluminum engine parts are what makes it more possible than before when blocks and heads were all iron.
Oh yes engine oils are much better. I think Dr. Haas will have a problem one day for a couple of reasons...
1) He races his Ferrari. The engine oil gets very hot racing as compared to regular driving.
2) His Ferrari is spec'd for a 40 weight oil. 20 weight at track racing temperature is VERY THIN. To me, it is easy to see the chances of oil failure are higher. Flow is meaningless if there is not enough thickness.
Haas doesn't race his car. He even says as much and that's why he is able to get away with a 20 grade (and I believe his car actually calls for a 60 grade). He goes on to say that if he were to track his car, that a 20grade likely wouldn't suffice.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
Cars used to have spec's of 20w-50 ..in the 70's. We're now in a new century. Any cars ..even HD pickups ..or even most of the diesels out there require 20w-50 anymore?
Something happened.
That something was that engines got smaller. Not too many 400+ c.i. engines on the road nowadays. Was 5w30 around back then? That was before my time.
Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
5w-20 has been OEM spec'd by Ford for almost a decade ...in just about everything. Any mass migration to the junkyards with premature engine fatigue?
Probably not, but most Fords sold are 4 and 6 cylinders. My original question was in regards to higher performance V8s.
It's not the size that counts- at least not how you are using it. A 300hp 1.8 I4 will typically be more demanding of an oil than a 300hp 400ci V8. Of course quirky engine dimensions and geometry not withstanding.
You have to understand, that in spite of CAFE, Ford tests these cars under a myriad of conditions, none of them favorable and still they last.
Originally Posted By: MustangMan
Originally Posted By: sangyup81
Mustang Man, one thing you have to realize is that oils have changed since 2001. We are now at SM going on SN. I believe oils were at SJ at the time your car was made. 5w20s nowadays are excellent at protecting your car at much higher than normal operating temperatures. I believe some tests are done at 200 C or 250 C when in all likelihood your car will be lucky to reach 180 C on the highways.
Also a V8 performance or not does not need an oil different from an L4 or V6. All that extra performance is spread out over more cylinders and displacement. I'd be worried about Turbos if anything.
Why do you think Dr. Haas will suffer thermal breakdown? I don't mind you using 0w30 or 5w30 but please don't go telling people using 5w20 or 0w20 will cause thermal breakdown because there is no evidence it is true.
And for the question of why 5w20, CAFE is the main motivator but aluminum engine parts are what makes it more possible than before when blocks and heads were all iron.
Oh yes engine oils are much better. I think Dr. Haas will have a problem one day for a couple of reasons...
1) He races his Ferrari. The engine oil gets very hot racing as compared to regular driving.
2) His Ferrari is spec'd for a 40 weight oil. 20 weight at track racing temperature is VERY THIN. To me, it is easy to see the chances of oil failure are higher. Flow is meaningless if there is not enough thickness.
Haas doesn't race his car. He even says as much and that's why he is able to get away with a 20 grade (and I believe his car actually calls for a 60 grade). He goes on to say that if he were to track his car, that a 20grade likely wouldn't suffice.
Last edited:
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Originally Posted By: The_Eric
Haas doesn't race his car. He even says as much and that's why he is able to get away with a 20 grade (and I believe his car actually calls for a 60 grade). He goes on to say that if he were to track his car, that a 20grade likely wouldn't suffice.
^^2nd. I`d think if a 20 weight was used in a Ferrari/Lambo that specs a 60 weight,the engine would soon be toast if tracked or raced.
Haas doesn't race his car. He even says as much and that's why he is able to get away with a 20 grade (and I believe his car actually calls for a 60 grade). He goes on to say that if he were to track his car, that a 20grade likely wouldn't suffice.
^^2nd. I`d think if a 20 weight was used in a Ferrari/Lambo that specs a 60 weight,the engine would soon be toast if tracked or raced.
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Quote:
fact of the matter is, we've all seen Mod motors run for hundreds of thousands of miles on 20 weight oils.
As you've seen MILLIONS of spec'd 5w30 engines do it too ..that used 5w30 that sheared from when it was first introduced somewhere in the mid 70's (mass availability and OEM recommended)..and even (to a lessor degree) today.
Ford had the 5w-20 in the bag. They just brought it to market with it printed on the bottle.
fact of the matter is, we've all seen Mod motors run for hundreds of thousands of miles on 20 weight oils.
As you've seen MILLIONS of spec'd 5w30 engines do it too ..that used 5w30 that sheared from when it was first introduced somewhere in the mid 70's (mass availability and OEM recommended)..and even (to a lessor degree) today.
Ford had the 5w-20 in the bag. They just brought it to market with it printed on the bottle.
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Something happened.
Quote:
That something was that engines got smaller. Not too many 400+ c.i. engines on the road nowadays. Was 5w30 around back then? That was before my time.
..and only big displacement engines had broad spectrum oil recommendations from the OEM? I believe the 197x Cherokee with 4.2 I6 has recommendations spanning 5w30 to 20w-50.
5w-20 has been OEM spec'd by Ford for almost a decade ...in just about everything. Any mass migration to the junkyards with premature engine fatigue?
Quote:
Probably not, but most Fords sold are 4 and 6 cylinders. My original question was in regards to higher performance V8s.
Ah ..but Ford did not bring this oil to market for the benefit of 4 and 6 cylinder engines. It was brought into mass usages SPECIFICALLY for its higher displacement GAS GUZZZLERS to allow them to be certified with it.
What are you calling thermal break down? If you mean oils getting thinner as they are heated, that happens to all of them regardless of visc. If you're talking about being "damaged" or fatigued, what makes you think that a contemporary 20 grade would be any more susceptible to this event than any other oil?
Quote:
Mainly because the whole idea now about using a 30 or 40 or 50 is because of more heat. The hotter the oil gets then the thinner it gets. Wouldn't oil fluidity become meaningless if it is not thick enough to lubricated engine components?
Okay. That would not normally be called "break down". It's just what oil does when it gets hotter.
..but I think your concept of why, traditionally, heavier weight oils were used in higher performance/large displacement engines is .....let's try it this way..
How does a small block Chevy in a pickup ..fully loaded to max GVWR ..towing to max CGVWR survive on a 10w30 with only shortening the mileage interval? Wouldn't you think that they would tell the owner to go up a grade or two?
I'd say that aside from factoring for the potential encountered oil temps, they don't have to worry about a lousy fuel management system degrading the oil ..nor poor base stocks reducing it to the point of issues.
That is, where it may have made sense to use a 20w-50 at one time, the same task can be performed with a much lower visc fluid.
Quote:
I do realize that 5w30 can shear down to a 20 over time, but doesn't that depend on the oil? Wouldn't synthetic 5w30 be less likely to do this? Aren't some 5w30s thicker than others?
They've improved greatly in the past (near) decade ..but conventional will slide a touch "depending". It's not usually a full sCt from virgin. Synthetics will do better.
Quote:
That something was that engines got smaller. Not too many 400+ c.i. engines on the road nowadays. Was 5w30 around back then? That was before my time.
..and only big displacement engines had broad spectrum oil recommendations from the OEM? I believe the 197x Cherokee with 4.2 I6 has recommendations spanning 5w30 to 20w-50.
5w-20 has been OEM spec'd by Ford for almost a decade ...in just about everything. Any mass migration to the junkyards with premature engine fatigue?
Quote:
Probably not, but most Fords sold are 4 and 6 cylinders. My original question was in regards to higher performance V8s.
Ah ..but Ford did not bring this oil to market for the benefit of 4 and 6 cylinder engines. It was brought into mass usages SPECIFICALLY for its higher displacement GAS GUZZZLERS to allow them to be certified with it.
What are you calling thermal break down? If you mean oils getting thinner as they are heated, that happens to all of them regardless of visc. If you're talking about being "damaged" or fatigued, what makes you think that a contemporary 20 grade would be any more susceptible to this event than any other oil?
Quote:
Mainly because the whole idea now about using a 30 or 40 or 50 is because of more heat. The hotter the oil gets then the thinner it gets. Wouldn't oil fluidity become meaningless if it is not thick enough to lubricated engine components?
Okay. That would not normally be called "break down". It's just what oil does when it gets hotter.
..but I think your concept of why, traditionally, heavier weight oils were used in higher performance/large displacement engines is .....let's try it this way..
How does a small block Chevy in a pickup ..fully loaded to max GVWR ..towing to max CGVWR survive on a 10w30 with only shortening the mileage interval? Wouldn't you think that they would tell the owner to go up a grade or two?
I'd say that aside from factoring for the potential encountered oil temps, they don't have to worry about a lousy fuel management system degrading the oil ..nor poor base stocks reducing it to the point of issues.
That is, where it may have made sense to use a 20w-50 at one time, the same task can be performed with a much lower visc fluid.
Quote:
I do realize that 5w30 can shear down to a 20 over time, but doesn't that depend on the oil? Wouldn't synthetic 5w30 be less likely to do this? Aren't some 5w30s thicker than others?
They've improved greatly in the past (near) decade ..but conventional will slide a touch "depending". It's not usually a full sCt from virgin. Synthetics will do better.
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Ford spec's 5w30 for the 3V in Australia. That's a red flag to me that states they've done some serious testing and that's the BEST grade for that engine. Especially given that the Aussie's have no CAFE.
My two cents anyways.
-Chris
This is why I have been debating using German Castrol on my 2008 GT 4.6L 3V engine just to see how it responds. Every time I read about the 3V spec'd for a 5w30 everywhere else other than the U.S. it makes me question the CAFE. That would be another debate.
Then you hear about the VCT being viscosity sensitive and requiring 5W-20 oil. I honestly don't know what the truth is on the topic.
Ford spec's 5w30 for the 3V in Australia. That's a red flag to me that states they've done some serious testing and that's the BEST grade for that engine. Especially given that the Aussie's have no CAFE.
My two cents anyways.
-Chris
This is why I have been debating using German Castrol on my 2008 GT 4.6L 3V engine just to see how it responds. Every time I read about the 3V spec'd for a 5w30 everywhere else other than the U.S. it makes me question the CAFE. That would be another debate.
Then you hear about the VCT being viscosity sensitive and requiring 5W-20 oil. I honestly don't know what the truth is on the topic.
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I wonder why that raises a red flag? The principle designers in the nation where the principle customer base operates them ..and it's the country where most are manufactured ...uses 5w-20 ..and someone would be thrown into caution mode when some place where it wasn't designed or manufactured (I think they only got the 5.4) opts for something far more available?
I knew it! Germans have always had it all wrong. I knew that they had ulterior motives with that thick glue stuff that they use in Europe. Thank goodness we have the good common sense to get the proper approvals on 30 grades for use here. Thought they could pull that "stuff" over here in North America??! I think not!
I knew it! Germans have always had it all wrong. I knew that they had ulterior motives with that thick glue stuff that they use in Europe. Thank goodness we have the good common sense to get the proper approvals on 30 grades for use here. Thought they could pull that "stuff" over here in North America??! I think not!
I think no one can present any evidence that XW-20 will cause premature engine death. It's just a bunch of outdated viscosity overworry. Sort of cultural meme locked into people's brain patterns.
Aussie Car 5.4L 3V is Mexican Built and does not contain VCT.
US 5.4L 3V is Ford authorized via TSB to run 10W-40 if it has noisy top end complaints.
As far as the 4.6L 2V:
Police cars go 400,000 miles on 5W-20.
Police cars go 400,000 miles on 5w30.
Police cars go 400,000 miles on 10w30.
Police cars go 400,000 miles on 15w40.
Ford prefers they use MC 5W-20 with 5,000 mi OCI but they have to live with the Mobil 1 5w30 at 15,000 mi OCI and 15w40 Fleet at 9,000 mi OCI some departments use. Many localities use the same oil for all their vehicles.
Bottom line is the Modular will outlive you as long as you put some liquid in the crankcase.
US 5.4L 3V is Ford authorized via TSB to run 10W-40 if it has noisy top end complaints.
As far as the 4.6L 2V:
Police cars go 400,000 miles on 5W-20.
Police cars go 400,000 miles on 5w30.
Police cars go 400,000 miles on 10w30.
Police cars go 400,000 miles on 15w40.
Ford prefers they use MC 5W-20 with 5,000 mi OCI but they have to live with the Mobil 1 5w30 at 15,000 mi OCI and 15w40 Fleet at 9,000 mi OCI some departments use. Many localities use the same oil for all their vehicles.
Bottom line is the Modular will outlive you as long as you put some liquid in the crankcase.
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