Another Sedan Bites the Dust
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Remember the Toyota Cressida which became the Avalon
Half the BTCC field would like a word.
FWD is fine until it gets up to around 250 HP then torque steer can make the car almost unmanageable especially in turbo applications.
One of my own cars is high HP FWD with no nanny stuff, it is so unruly under high boost it will make you pay attention if you are not expecting it, if it were RWD or AWD it wouldn't be an issue. JM2C
One of my own cars is high HP FWD with no nanny stuff, it is so unruly under high boost it will make you pay attention if you are not expecting it, if it were RWD or AWD it wouldn't be an issue. JM2C
Both platforms have their merits. It's like anything else in life, pros and cons give and take. There is no Goldilocks drivetrain. (not even all wheel drive)
My biggest frustration with FWD is the inability to put power down coming out of corners on track, or even just pulling in to traffic on the street. And that is just with the 1.4 T Jetta rental I just had. I can't imagine trying to merge in a 2.5T Kia K5. (That car desperately needs a mechanical LSD)
That said, not everyone drives like me, and FWD most certainly has its place. Even on the track. (There are most certainly FWD track cars)
Mazda has been shifting their product line up market. A prime example is the new Mazda3 turbo. This car was not aimed as a competitor to the hot hatch segment, but rather as a premium hatchback offering, similar to the Audi A3. I suspect Mazda will do the same with the Mazda6, competing with the like of the Lexus IS, 3 series, G70, etc.
My biggest frustration with FWD is the inability to put power down coming out of corners on track, or even just pulling in to traffic on the street. And that is just with the 1.4 T Jetta rental I just had. I can't imagine trying to merge in a 2.5T Kia K5. (That car desperately needs a mechanical LSD)
That said, not everyone drives like me, and FWD most certainly has its place. Even on the track. (There are most certainly FWD track cars)
Mazda has been shifting their product line up market. A prime example is the new Mazda3 turbo. This car was not aimed as a competitor to the hot hatch segment, but rather as a premium hatchback offering, similar to the Audi A3. I suspect Mazda will do the same with the Mazda6, competing with the like of the Lexus IS, 3 series, G70, etc.
Yo, Uncle Dave, you lost me at, "..In an open diff FWD you simply run out of tire almost instantly,".
What do you mean by this? No criticism; I just can't see what you're saying.
What do you mean by this? No criticism; I just can't see what you're saying.
VW gets it right in the GTI and GLI. My previous car was a 2013 GTI manual and the electronic limited slip worked really well.
My Elantra Sport is rated 201 HP and desperately needs a limited slip.
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I think FWD vehicles do have their advantages...easier placement of the axles to the front, no tunnel underneath that inhibits rear legroom, better traction in snow/rain than RWD, shorter hoods. Probably more that I can’t think of.
I prefer the feel of a rear wheel drive vehicle, but a lot of people don’t care or wouldn’t notice the difference if you had them compare the two. For me, where I live, you really need an AWD drive or rear wheel drive vehicle, unfortunately.
When I say mechanical limited slip, I am talking about one that is accomplished by limiting wheelspin through the differential, and not through differential braking. (Looking at you, Focus ST)
VW's eLSD is still a mechanical limited slip, in the way that I a referring. And yes, that eLSD is magical in what it can accomplish.
There is one overriding reason why FWD vehicles became so ubiquitous... MPG. How the manufacturers got their improved MPG was... weight reduction. Their weight reduction came from packaging efficiency. The manufacturers could design a smaller/lighter FWD vehicle with the same (or more) interior volume as a larger/heavier RWD vehicle. I remember when the Accord first came out, customers were flabbergasted by how roomy they were inside, comparable to a Nova/Granada/Aspen but much smaller and lighter, and achieving much better MPG.
Even at 200 it can be a challenge...
My 1990 eclipse turbo FWD with 190 HP would yank the wheel out of your hand if you didnt keep a serious grip on it.
After I modded with boost controllers and a host of bolt ons it was truly unruly.
Oh people race them.... people also race lawn mowers.
a light tweak to your statement might be -
How many FWD race cars are seen on road courses beating RWD cars - zero, or a number so close to zero it might as well be.
A quick peek of the fastest times at any track show the FWD offerings way down the list.
Yes, a better way of saying it, and basically what I was getting at. If I was going to build a race car, FWD would be the last drive system I'd consider.
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I had a Nissan Altima 3.5L V6 for awhile for a commuter car. It had around 250 HP and was a pretty light car for it's size - it would haul arse if the "go pedal" was smashed hard. I surprised many sports cars off the line with that car.
But as you said, the front end would squirm all over the place from torque steer and tires trying to break loose (no traction control). Had to really be aware of all that. Trying to come out of corners at high power could get ptetty scary at times too.
What I mean by that is that most FWD (and non sporty RWD) cars use an open differential that sends power to the wheel with the least traction vs a limited slip differential that will send power to both wheels.
Combine this with a hard turn and the front inside wheel of a FWD car with an open diff will be unable to lay down much power coming out of the corner.
MacManus post 46 mentions this as well.
If you've seen a car do a burnout with one wheel spinning thats an open differential, often called a "peg leg" by hot rodders..
In poor driving conditions (snow and ice) I prefer FWD. These vehicles have good traction, probably due to a lot of weight over the driving wheels. I've never driven a Beetle or Corvair in poor driving conditions but expect that traction would be similar. It used to be said that with a (FWD) Mini you just had to keep the front wheels pointed to where you wanted to go and then let the rear wheels do whatever they want, but I never mastered that technique.
In good driving conditions I prefer RWD. Acceleration redistributes weight to the rear (drive) wheels and that's good. And the driving and steering wheels are different so the tires don't overload as easily. It's nice to be able to be able to lay down power and not have the steering wheel (and steering wheels) get all squirrely. And it's nice coming out of corner and laying down power and feeling the steering actually tighten up.
In good driving conditions I prefer RWD. Acceleration redistributes weight to the rear (drive) wheels and that's good. And the driving and steering wheels are different so the tires don't overload as easily. It's nice to be able to be able to lay down power and not have the steering wheel (and steering wheels) get all squirrely. And it's nice coming out of corner and laying down power and feeling the steering actually tighten up.
Eh, not really.
The Cressida was a straight-6, RWD sedan, and the Avalon is V6, FWD.
Now, some of the OEMs are realizing, finally, that there’s some $ to be made by selling a sport-lux sedan (or semi-sport or semi-lux, as the case may be) that emphasizes a premium engine and handling experience, for us automotive and driving enthusiasts out here.
Nick1994
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Yup 250hp is about the cutoff. My aunt's 2016 Avalon has 268hp and there's way too much torque steer. If you're driving about 30-35 mph and stomp on it, it'll still squeal the tires, previous set was Michelin's and it's currently got Pirelli's on it.
The Avalon that sees 100% throttle is a rare machine indeed.
Torque steer can be mitigated, if not done away with completely, but it has to be an initial design consideration.
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