Another 737 mishap

[c502cid]

You must not fly much - I do and you can’t plane shop …
In fact - was just moved from an LH Airbus to an UA Boeing bcs the Airbus got grounded …

I have a strong bias for Delta and United. Best training, best operational performance. I’ve worked at Delta’s training center, seen their operation. It’s impressive. United runs a good operation, and their app is simply industry leading and puts everything you need at your fingertips. United has more direct flights worldwide than anyone.

American has operational challenges, reliability and delay issues. Losing money when they should be making it. They’re struggling.

SWA is a good airline, but they don’t offer much (near zero) in the way of international destinations, and I don’t care for the boarding and seat assignment process.

Please let me add that you should avoid Spirit. Lousy operational metrics, awful clientele, and they likely won’t be here in a few years. Jet Blue is struggling. Unhappy employees, cutting routes, losing money.

I say this as a former Diamond Medallion on Delta, 1K on United, and current pilot for United.

Your geography will drive the choice. Where do you live? Where do you need to go?

For example, my daughter lives in Salt Lake City. A major Delta hub. She had a need to travel a lot this year. On my recommendation, she’s a Delta Skymiles member, uses the Delta Skymiles AMEX.

Delta takes great care of her. 15 trips this year (interviews) and on time for every one of them.

Many points of Astro are well taken. With just under 3 million butt in seat miles as a passenger a lot depends on the company you work for and what they are willing to pay. Non stops? Low fares? Hub captive? It all factors in.

I will say this though. All of the airlines are in trouble when it comes to customer service and the flight experience. I used to call Southwest Air Greyhound, but really now they all are. My expectations are so low now, so my top choice is just getting to my destination safely. I think all the airlines, even Spirit, will supply that. It's a shame though, I used to love United, but their management team is telling customers to get bent. I've since bought tickets on 3 other airlines, they are all the same in the end.

 

[Snagglefoot]

Qantas......Qantas has never crashed.

 

[4WD]

Qantas......Qantas has never crashed.

Not trouble free though

Qantas flight QF32 A380 engine explosion: Rolls-Royce to blame says ATSB report

Australia's ATSB air safety regulator has released an interim report that blames engine manufacturer Rolls-Royce for the Airbus A380 engine failure on flight QF32 last November. The explosion in the engine shredded part of the wing and sent engine fragments into the side of the A380...

www.executivetraveller.com

One I took - sat with some well known WWE guys

 

[Astro14]

Qantas......Qantas has never crashed.

The definition of “crash” is a bit squishy. They ran a 747-400 off a runway in a rainstorm. Pilot error. Most people seeing that result would call it a crash.

QANTAS had the airplane rebuilt. Cost much more than the value of the airplane, but that allowed them to say they’ve never had a hull loss.

Still, I think most people would call this a crash. I would.

 

[Skippy722]

The definition of “crash” is a bit squishy. They ran a 747-400 off a runway in a rainstorm. Pilot error. Most people seeing that result would call it a crash.

QANTAS had the airplane rebuilt. Cost much more than the value of the airplane, but that allowed them to say they’ve never had a hull loss.

Still, I think most people would call this a crash. I would.

View attachment 209456

View attachment 209453

I’ve been watching a TON of blancolirio and Mentour Pilot videos on various accidents and they all pretty much boil down to human error in some fashion. But what amazes me is how the airlines, manufacturers, and FAA all sit down and go “how do we ensure this isn’t possible again?” and actually make it happen.

And having never even set foot on a plane of any size let alone actually fly, I’d feel perfectly fine flying on a Boeing or Airbus jet in a heartbeat because of how they all handle issues.

 

[Astro14]

Interesting update in the Wall Street Journal this morning.

Airline CEOs Seek Meeting With Boeing Directors to Address Production Problems​

A group of airline chiefs recently requested a meeting with Boeing’s board to express concern over the Alaska Airlines accident and production problems that have upended the industry’s plans, people familiar with the matter said. The request is an unusual sign of frustration with the manufacturer’s problems and its leader, David Calhoun. The Boeing CEO isn’t expected to attend the planned meetings.

 

[The_Eric]

Interesting update in the Wall Street Journal this morning.

Airline CEOs Seek Meeting With Boeing Directors to Address Production Problems​

A group of airline chiefs recently requested a meeting with Boeing’s board to express concern over the Alaska Airlines accident and production problems that have upended the industry’s plans, people familiar with the matter said. The request is an unusual sign of frustration with the manufacturer’s problems and its leader, David Calhoun. The Boeing CEO isn’t expected to attend the planned meetings.

What are your personal thoughts on such a move?

 

[john_pifer]

Interesting update in the Wall Street Journal this morning.

Airline CEOs Seek Meeting With Boeing Directors to Address Production Problems​

A group of airline chiefs recently requested a meeting with Boeing’s board to express concern over the Alaska Airlines accident and production problems that have upended the industry’s plans, people familiar with the matter said. The request is an unusual sign of frustration with the manufacturer’s problems and its leader, David Calhoun. The Boeing CEO isn’t expected to attend the planned meetings.

I would think it certainly improves the airlines’ hand in future/current order negotiation.

 

[Astro14]

What are your personal thoughts on such a move?

Personally?

Long overdue. I suspect many such meetings have occurred one on one. But the fact that the industry wants to meet with him is a sea change and indicative of frustration across all of the major carriers.

The refusal of Boeing’s CEO to meet with his customers?

A colossal failure. A failure in leadership, a failure to acknowledge his accountability in the mistakes Boeing is made. A failure to recognize customer concerns.

It’s a giant middle finger to all of his best customers and a huge win for Airbus.

Were I on the board of Boeing, I would call for his immediate resignation. As a shareholder, be assured that that is exactly how my shares will be voted at the next meeting.

 

[fdcg27]

First off, I apologize to anyone I've offended with my posts in this thread. I may be qualified to fly simple singles (C172) but my only experience with transport category aircraft involves riding in them. A remarkable experience in itself. A little over 7K miles DOH to ORD in a little less than 14 hours? Awesome, and it was a Boeing.
I really hope that Boeing can get itself together and break out of the malaise that has plagued it for years now. Boeing is headed for the same fate as its merger partner and if it wants to remain a builder of commercial transports it must focus on the completed quality of what it now builds as well as at least two new types going forward in the near term. The former will have to come before the later, as what carrier would otherwise order any new Boeing product? Boeing can't even get type certification for the Max 7 or 10 nor the 777X at the moment and customer airlines are starting to look like they're walking.
Not a good situation for any company.

 

[Astro14]

First off, I apologize to anyone I've offended with my posts in this thread. I may be qualified to fly simple singles (C172) but my only experience with transport category aircraft involves riding in them. A remarkable experience in itself. A little over 7K miles DOH to ORD in a little less than 14 hours? Awesome, and it was a Boeing.
I really hope that Boeing can get itself together and break out of the malaise that has plagued it for years now. Boeing is headed for the same fate as its merger partner and if it wants to remain a builder of commercial transports it must focus on the completed quality of what it now builds as well as at least two new types going forward in the near term. The former will have to come before the later, as what carrier would otherwise order any new Boeing product? Boeing can't even get type certification for the Max 7 or 10 nor the 777X at the moment and customer airlines are starting to look like they're walking.
Not a good situation for any company.

The contrast between management and leadership.

Management is doing things right.

And that is what the beancounters have done* So many ways to do “things right” when you are focused only on little things.

Leadership is doing the right thing.

It takes vision. Building new airplanes. Analyzing the market. The 747 was visionary. It revolutionized air travel and killed the SST.

Boeing last demonstrated vision about 20 years ago - with the decision to go ahead with the 787 project. It was evolutionary - carbon fiber structure, new systems architecture, incorporation of CFD into design. But that evolution cut fuel burn by 25%, and they have over 1,500 orders for the jet. We love the jet.

Since then, it’s been nothing but management. Boeing is a case study for that contrast between management and leadership.

* Such short-sighted decisions - “returned value to shareholders” “streamlined product line” “outsourced manufacturing to control cost” - with decisions to spin off Spirit Aerosystems to manufacture fuselages, do stock buybacks, relocate headquarters away from where the engineers and fabrication, and they have lost their way. They have lined their pockets to the detriment of everyone else at Boeing. The “managers” have become disconnected from the core of the business - designing and building airplanes.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

" government not telling us “truth.” that is the only fact there is.

“Trust the government,” said no Founding Father, ever.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

The contrast between management and leadership.

Management is doing things right.

And that is what the beancounters have done* So many ways to do “things right” when you are focused only on little things.

Leadership is doing the right thing.

It takes vision. Building new airplanes. Analyzing the market. The 747 was visionary. It revolutionized air travel and killed the SST.

Boeing last demonstrated vision about 20 years ago - with the decision to go ahead with the 787 project. It was evolutionary - carbon fiber structure, new systems architecture, incorporation of CFD into design. But that evolution cut fuel burn by 25%, and they have over 1,500 orders for the jet. We love the jet.

Since then, it’s been nothing but management. Boeing is a case study for that contrast between management and leadership.

* Such short-sighted decisions - “returned value to shareholders” “streamlined product line” “outsourced manufacturing to control cost” - with decisions to spin off Spirit Aerosystems to manufacture fuselages, do stock buybacks, relocate headquarters away from where the engineers and fabrication, and they have lost their way. They have lined their pockets to the detriment of everyone else at Boeing. The “managers” have become disconnected from the core of the business - designing and building airplanes.

I don’t have any personal involvement with either company, but that sure sounds like the guy that took over Sears a few years ago, ran the company and all their employees out of a job, yet became even more fabulously wealthy at their expense… being stripped of all their ill-gotten gains and rotting in prison is too civil an end for people like that, IMO.

 

[fdcg27]

The contrast between management and leadership.

Management is doing things right.

And that is what the beancounters have done* So many ways to do “things right” when you are focused only on little things.

Leadership is doing the right thing.

It takes vision. Building new airplanes. Analyzing the market. The 747 was visionary. It revolutionized air travel and killed the SST.

What really concerns me is that Boeing can't even seem to build its current products with the sort of seamless quality that any airline would expect from any company that's been building transports as long as Boeing has.
The problems with delivered 737 Max aircraft have been beaten to death and Boeing's inability to gain type certification of the Max 7 and 10 are seriously impacting their customers, including your own airline in the case of the 10. How'd you like to be Southwest right about now?
Even McD delivered properly assembled aircraft in its long-running milking of the DC-9. How many MD80s had assembly problems on delivery?
You are right. Boeing needs a change in leadership and the first order of business should be to rectify the assembly problems with both the 737 and 787 program. This will cost money, but inaction has cost Boeing as well. Certification of the Max 7 and 10 must proceed in parallel and resources must be devoted as needed even if the cost is high. The cost of inaction is also high. The 777X must also have the resources devoted to it to see the program through to certification quickly, even if the cost is high. Once again, the cost of inaction is also high.
Finally, Boeing needs both a 737 and a 767 replacement. The 737 is obvious, a mid-sized widebody maybe a little less so, but this would be a market opportunity since airlines have indicated a demand for such an aircraft and Airbus has no competitor on hand, other than the aging A330. Boeing needs to leapfrog Airbus in the key single aisle market and to do the same with a medium widebody. And no, an A321XLR is not a competitive offering as compared to any widebody on a long flight and the A330 is now simply too old a design.

 

[edyvw]

Personally?

Long overdue. I suspect many such meetings have occurred one on one. But the fact that the industry wants to meet with him is a sea change and indicative of frustration across all of the major carriers.

The refusal of Boeing’s CEO to meet with his customers?

A colossal failure. A failure in leadership, a failure to acknowledge his accountability in the mistakes Boeing is made. A failure to recognize customer concerns.

It’s a giant middle finger to all of his best customers and a huge win for Airbus.

Were I on the board of Boeing, I would call for his immediate resignation. As a shareholder, be assured that that is exactly how my shares will be voted at the next meeting.

Another indication of rotten culture.
The whole C suit needs to go.

 

[john_pifer]

Boeing CEO Calhoun to step down at end of 2024:

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/boeing-ceo-calhoun-step-down-2024-03-25/

 

[edyvw]

Boeing CEO Calhoun to step down at end of 2024:

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/boeing-ceo-calhoun-step-down-2024-03-25/

The most important thing they could do is move HQ back to Seattle. Calhoun needs to go, and all C suit. They need drastic changes to try to root out this organizational culture.
Also, the new CEO has to come from outside. It cannot be an insider.

 

[andrewg]

The most important thing they could do is move HQ back to Seattle. Calhoun needs to go, and all C suit. They need drastic changes to try to root out this organizational culture.
Also, the new CEO has to come from outside. It cannot be an insider.

That probably will never happen....although it would be a good idea if they did so. They want to be close to the action and D.C. fits the bill. Years ago when they first moved to Chicago it was a mistake. Boeing was always known as a Seattle company....but times change I suppose.
As for the work being done at the Renton factory (737)? Well I don't think just the higher ups are solely to blame. The apathy coupled with entitlement many of the younger union workers have is a big problem. Professionalism is lacking within the union ranks. Sure, there are some great union workers that exhibit skills and knowledge.....but sadly those sorts of workers seem to have diminished. And the company doesn't seem to want to acknowledge nor reward exceptional employees. As for the company, they used to have Employee of the Month/quarter/year decades ago. They got rid of all that.

 

[edyvw]

That probably will never happen....although it would be a good idea if they did so. They want to be close to the action and D.C. fits the bill. Years ago when they first moved to Chicago it was a mistake. Boeing was always known as a Seattle company....but times change I suppose.
As for the work being done at the Renton factory (737)? Well I don't think just the higher ups are solely to blame. The apathy coupled with entitlement many of the younger union workers have is a big problem. Professionalism is lacking within the union ranks. Sure, there are some great union workers that exhibit skills and knowledge.....but sadly those sorts of workers seem to have diminished. And the company doesn't seem to want to acknowledge nor reward exceptional employees. As for the company, they used to have Employee of the Month/quarter/year decades ago. They got rid of all that.

It might not happen, but at Boeing’s detriment.
Leadership sets the tone. They have to lead by example then ask from workers to be at the top of the game.

I bet you COMACand possibly Embraer are thinking what piece of Boeing’s pie they can get.

 

[fdcg27]

https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/25/business/boeing-ceo-calhoun-leaving/index.html

The needed changes may be happening even as we wish for them.