Amsoil vs. Mobil 1

[Mike_dup1]

Found this in a magazine article some time back.

Federal Mogul Corporation, a manufacturer of engine bearings, pistons, connecting rods and other engine parts, studied over 7,000 case histories of bearing distress and engine failure and never found engine oil to be the cause of a failure. Dirt, the number one cause of engine failure, was found to be responsible for 43.4% of failures, and insufficient lubrication, the second most common cause of failure, was responsible for 16.6% of failures. Insufficient lubrication is the general term used when not enough oil gets through to the engine to lubricate it (lack of oil volume).

 

[satterfi]

quote:

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Originally posted by Mike:
Found this in a magazine article some time back.

Federal Mogul Corporation, a manufacturer of engine bearings, pistons, connecting rods and other engine parts, studied over 7,000 case histories of bearing distress and engine failure and never found engine oil to be the cause of a failure. Dirt, the number one cause of engine failure, was found to be responsible for 43.4% of failures, and insufficient lubrication, the second most common cause of failure, was responsible for 16.6% of failures. Insufficient lubrication is the general term used when not enough oil gets through to the engine to lubricate it (lack of oil volume).

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I bet using oil without an API donut on the bottle wasn't on the list.

 

[darrenc]

See my 24 K mile run with Amsoil 10W-30 in my Jeep -- on the used oil analyses board. This stuff performed great. Also, see my 5 K run with the 10W-30 in my wife's turbo volvo. Also impressive. My only bias is that this stuff seems to perform as indicated in my vehicles.

I did, however, just buy a case of Schaeffer's 7000 10W-30 just for comparison. We'll see. I wonder how this will hold up in the Volvo's high pressure turbo???

 

[buster]

Tooslick said it best in this post. And don't forget, Amsoil doesn't have Moly.....for longer drains, I'd say Amsoil is better, bc they are not API certified and Zinc levels are higher but for normal interval changes Amsoil has NOT proven to be better then M1. They use the same PAO.

"If anybody actually knew what goes on in this industry, they'd realize how silly this Amsoil vs Mobil 1 stuff really is. Amsoil has been buying PAO basestocks from Mobil for about 25 years and now that Castrol is using Group III stocks, they are no doubt Mobils largest customer of PAO basestocks. In other words, if Amsoil sells more oil, then Mobil sells more PAO basestock. Keep in mind I'm not just talking about engine oils, but also the synthetic compressor oils,hydraulic fluids and industrial gear lubes that Amsoil sells in 55 gallon drums and 275 gallons totes. So if Amsoil tweaks Mobil once in a while about the relative merits of their products,they really don't mind, as they have been in bed together for over two decades.

Amsoil held their direct jobbers convention last spring up in Superior, WI. Guess what corporation paid for the seven course dinner for all the Amsoil dealers? Yes, it was ExxonMobil ...this may seem strange until you realize that Amsoil buys over a million gallons of PAO per year and that number goes up constantly. In addition to ExxonMobil, Amsoil works with Lubrizol to develop their additive chemistries and they purchase shear stable, VI modifiers from Royal Dutch Shell - their "ShellVis" product is a known quantity in the industry. Amsoil also buys very high quality ester basestocks from several suppliers. In other words, they purchase the best raw materials currently available and put together the best synthetics they know how to make. There is no secret at all to what Amsoil does, it simply comes down to how much money you want to put into the formulation.

Could Mobil make an even better synthetic than they do now? Yes, absolutely - they do sell better and more expensive synlubes in Europe and always have. Keep in mind however, that drain intervals in Europe are now in the 20,000km-30,000km range. Mobil would have to charge more for their Mobil 1 product if they did this in the US and sales would go down significantly. Want proof? Most of the so called "oil experts" on this site will tell you that the ACEA A3/B4 rated, Mobil 1, 0w-40 is their best oil. So why are so few of them actually using it? Well, they have to pay $5.00/qt for the stuff at Autozone instead of waiting for the M1, 5w-30 to go in sale for $17.99/5 qt jug at Walmart. Synthetics in the US have turned into a commodity market and that market has decided that they should sell for about $4.00/qt, or better yet, less than that on sale.

Mobil is never going to make a better oil until standard drain intervals increase to the point where it is worthwhile to do so, or they start advertising extended drain intervals once again. Given the legal climate in the US, they simply don't want the product liability associated with pushing extended drains - and they'd sell less oil that way. Heck, they are already making the best OTS synthetic in the $4.00-$4.50/qt range, so why put more money into their formulations just to make "Patman" happy? Ain't gonna happen ....

I do think that Delvac 1, 5w-40 is an even better oil than Mobil 1, but it sells for approx $22.00-$24.00/gallon at truckstops. So they can afford to use higher quality basestocks and a more robust additive chemstry in this formulation."

TooSlick

[ December 21, 2002, 01:14 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[Mike_dup1]

quote:

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Originally posted by Giles:
Mike, the only issue I have with using oil that isn't API certified is the warrantee issue. I am sure in an engine failure that the oil wouldn't be the cause, but I have a suspicion the warrantee company would try to use that as a reason for not covering it. Who knows its probably even written in the fine print.

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Well, all I can say if this worries you so then so have to do what you have to do. I won't let it bother me.

The big oil companies need to sell large volumes of oil and auto manf. need to sell new cars and trucks. They want your engine and powertrain to have somewhat of a defined life. Last long enough so that you are a satisfied and happy customer who will come back and buy another one. But not to long so that you won't need to buy another vehicle for a many years. There are many products out there that could be made better but to do so would hurt the business of selling you more product. The auto companies are not going recomend a ubricant that can go for 15,000, 20,000, 25,000 miles unless they are forced to do so with laws. They know that would hurt thier dealers service business and whats more the american public has bought into the therory that you have to change your oil every 3000 miles. 25,000 mile changes would wipe out the quick lube industry and they are going to fight that tooth and nail.

Notice how they can make the spark plugs last 100,000 miles, the coolant 150,000 and the oil only 3,000? Thats lot of oil being dumped and how many of you are not disposing of it properly? I saw my neighbor boy heping his dad change oil on the truck last year. The old man tells the kid to take the drain oil and go dump in down the storm sewer. He did and I took a photo of it. I then bugged the oil man who was the local volunteer fire chief about it. He did not care one bit and we are only only 1 block from a lake that feeds into one of the great lakes.

[ December 21, 2002, 05:09 PM: Message edited by: Mike ]

 

[bluedevils]

quote:

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Originally posted by Mike:

Thats lot of oil being dumped and how many of you are not disposing of it properly? I saw my neighbor boy heping his dad change oil on the truck last year. The old man tells the kid to take the drain oil and go dump in down the storm sewer. He did and I took a photo of it. I then bugged the oil man who was the local volunteer fire chief about it. He did not care one bit and we are only only 1 block from a lake that feeds into one of the great lakes.

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Mike, you should have talked with your neighbor about this. I'm not sure where you are in Michigan, but in SE Mich there are LOTS of places that take used oil for recycling, free of charge. If your neighbor is dumping oil down the storm drain, he is either incredibly stupid, incredibly short-sighted, indifferent about the world he lives in, or all of the above.

I applaud you for contacting the fire chief, but the easiest solution to that problem is to have the guy dispose of the oil properly.

 

[Mike_dup1]

Been a while since I read that article but it made no mention of any brands of oil if I recall. I thought kept that magazine but have not been to find the article yet.

If a big lie to say that any oil not API certified will damage an engine, but some infer that all the time. Results is what works for me and I have been using not API certified oil since 1977 and no engine I ever owned failed. If the oil was that bad, one would think I would have lost every engine but nothing could be farther from the truth. Never one problem.

I am so confident I run it in my 2001 GMC SLT Ext. Cab Z71 (sticker $35,000) with 28,000 mile, my 2002 Firebird Trana AM WS6 Ram Air ($32.350) at 8,000 miles, my 2001 Honda Rancher 4X4 ATV at 1000 miles, My 2002 Honda self-propelled lawn mower at 1000 feet. My good friend has my old truck, a 1996 Chevy Ext Cab Z71. Just turned 95,000 miles today plowing snow, which he has been doing with it since 1999, some 65,000 miles on non API oil. My 1984 Olds Delta 88 which I drove for almost 100,000 miles on non API oil is still running today with over 200,000 miles. The 3rd owner stopped using synthetic because the car was rusted bad but he tells me thats one good engine (307 Olds)in that car. So, you can beleive me or not, but I am talking from experience over 25 yrs. Others are jsut repeating hearsay and rumors.

 

[Patman]

In the distant future when I'm able to afford a new car again I will go with the warranty approved API certified oil, in the specified viscosity, but only for about the first 6 months or so. Once I have determined that there are no major defects with the powertrain (by then you should know for sure) then I'll just switch over to whatever oil and whatever interval I please.

I basically did that with my current car, I bought it used and it came with an aftermarket warranty which specified I must do 3k/3mo oil changes, and they couldn't be do it yourself ones either. They were very strict. I kept that up only for about the first 6 months, then when I was satisfied that my engine was in good shape, I forgot all about the warranty and now do my own thing. Warranties are so hard to make claims on anyways, they give you such a major hassle and always try to blame the consumer. An engine is never going to fail because of oil anyways, unless you run it out of oil, or never change the oil from the day you bought it (a friend of mine who is a Chevy dealer service advisor says he occasionally gets people come in with seized up engines because they bought the car new and never ever changed the oil-usually their engines die at about 40-50k he says)

 

[Giles]

Mike, the only issue I have with using oil that isn't API certified is the warrantee issue. I am sure in an engine failure that the oil wouldn't be the cause, but I have a suspicion the warrantee company would try to use that as a reason for not covering it. Who knows its probably even written in the fine print.

 

[westex39]

If you had pictures of your neighbor doing this you should have notified the EPA.

 

[yankees1]

In my warranty book it states that an API oil must be used to not void the warranty. IF an engine problem did occur while under warranty how could GM tell if I used Mobile 1 or non-API Amsoil? I will change my own oil so will not have receipts from a dealership.

 

[Mike_dup1]

quote:

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Originally posted by westex39:
If you had pictures of your neighbor doing this you should have notified the EPA.

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I did report this to the TWP sewer authority and they said there were aware of this A.Hole because they had to clean out the catch basin before. The guy doing the dumping was the Fire Chief (his son) at the time, he has since moved away. I still have the photo's in the desk, looking at them I realize that times flies, been more than a few years.

 

[shoz123]

quote:

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Originally posted by yankees1:
I will change my own oil so will not have receipts from a dealership.

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You better have receipts for the oil and filters or they will deny a warranty claim.

 

[msparks]

quote:

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Originally posted by tenderloin:
And AMSOIL is in the business of SELLING OIl and related products. What if any is their motive?? LOL

That game can be played many ways...........

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Yes, in the business of selling LESS oil not more oil. Also Amsoils position would be to get the most out of any piece of equipment. Face it, they could recommend a 12,000 mile oil change and I would sell twice as much oil, but they don't.

I tell customers about the 25,000 mile, but I also let them know to do what is comfortable to them. I don't want to sell them more oil, but more over piece of mind.

I wish all my customers were into oil analysis, by-pass filtration, and extended drains, but that is not the case. Some do good with the XL7500 in a new car, some are good with the regular at 10,000 miles. and so forth.

The API is a lobby group for the petroluem industry period, they have only the interest of the people they lobby for that is it. They have fought the EPA tooth and nail for the last 20 years, first leaded gas/catalytic converters now better diesel.

 

[MolaKule]

XHVI,

"Seriously, I think Mobil 1 is the best PAO synthetic you can buy. And since it is API certified, the GM warranty issue is a non-issue. "

Amsoil, Redline, RP, NEO, Synergen, and Mobil1 are full synthetics because they contain a PAO/ester mix, two synthetics from Group IV and V.

MSPARKS,

Amsoil and Mobil have been friendly competitors for some time, seeing they need this symbiotic relationship.

 

[dagmando]

quote:

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Originally posted by Patman:
The XL7500 line used to be PAO, but is now recently a group 3. They did this to lower costs.

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This is exactly why Amsoil has lost the little confidence I had in them. While Mobil 1 is making better oils, Amsoil is lowering the quality of their comsumer oil and riding on their name based on their Series 2000 oil. A typical marketing sceme, just like their distribution. Amagine if Mobil 1 made another, lower quality synthetic oil for quick-lube places and hoping the customer "thinks" he's getting the Mobil 1 quality. Amsoil is Series 2000 is a good oil, but it's all in the misleading character of the company between always coming up with some bogus test to say it superior to Mobil 1 to its distribution chain topped off with the XL-2000 oil actually going down in quality. On top of this, show me an trend of oil analysis that show a still good oil at even half their advertised change interval let alone the full, more advertising gimicks. I just do not trust the character of the company and who knows what they really are doing with the oils.

 

[msparks]

quote:

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Originally posted by dagmando:
This is exactly why Amsoil has lost the little confidence I had in them. While Mobil 1 is making better oils, Amsoil is lowering the quality of their comsumer oil and riding on their name based on their Series 2000 oil. A typical marketing sceme, just like their distribution.[/QB]

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Do you think that Amsoil would have even though of marketing a Group III oil if this wasn't started by Castrol, then followed on by virtually all other lube makers except Mobil 1??

I'm mean how you can you compete against a product that is much cheaper to make but still calls itself synthetic?? You tell me?

I can't see how you can even compare Amsoil XL7500 to Mobil 1. For a fair comparison go with the ASL product, as far as constantly improving their products, I have seen some good stuff lately, the 0w30 is still doing it's thing, the new Motorcycle lubes great stuff, and less expensive than the comparable Mobil 1 product. 0w40 4stroke oil for ATV's. I'm sure with the new Mobil 1 0w40 Amsoil will have something out to go against that as well. I would imagine a reformuluted 0w40 with a heavier additive package.

Lastly, I have several Quick Lube Oil change places that are selling 55 gallon barrels of the 7500 stuff, no complaints yet about the formulation change. As said earlier, this oil is supposed to marketed towards, either new car owners who want to follow their warrenty guidlines, or the quick lube market, that wants to see their customers more often. Either way it is a very outstanding lubricant base on the price to performance. No other synlube recommends an extended drain for their product. Believe me, I stay up on that, and call around eveyone I talk to say you should stay with the 3,000, but 5,000 is okay with the synthetic. What a Joke!!

 

[Spector]

As quoted above somewhere
"They also LOWERED the price to reflect the change in formulation. They are not trying to fool anyone into paying for a PAO when they are only getting a Group III."

Hmm, not quite true. Hey lowered the price, TWENTY CENTS GIVE ME BREAK!!!

They still market the XLseries as a SYNTHETIC using the Castrol ploy. Not really kosher in my opinion but AJ needs that boat payment.

Another quote from above.
"I'm mean how you can you compete against a product that is much cheaper to make but still calls itself synthetic?? You tell me?"

Yes, by continuing the quality. If they had lowered the price a buck or two yes, but twenty cents, that's insulting!

[ December 23, 2002, 02:54 PM: Message edited by: Spector ]

 

[mdv]

quote:

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Originally posted by Giles:

quote:

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Third, have you seen this thread http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000248 ? The oil was in use for 11 months and 24,033 miles. Looked pretty good to me...

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Where does it say that it was XL7500 that was being tested? Also where does it say it was the new "Cheaper" formula?[/QB]

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Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that was the XL7500 oil, it was the SAE 10W-30 formulate for 1 year or 25k. My point was that it seemed to hold up to that claim just fine.

 

[TooSlick]

Spector,

The specs on the XL-7500 series stuff compare very favorably to Mobil 1, whether you are comparing Noack volatility, TBN, VI,pour points, or four ball wear test scores. I believe they are using the Petro Canada Group III basestocks, which are very good. They have compensated for the use of Group III basestocks by using a significantly more robust additive chemistry, so their overall formulation cost may not be that much different. Keep in mind they are also buying the Group III basestocks.

I have no doubt that for 5000-7500 mile oil changes the XL-7500 will hold up at least as well as Mobil 1 and provide comparable wear #'s. In fact, I would be surprised if Mobil 1 wasn't the "benchmark" used in these formulations....

TS