The one thing I wish Amsoil would do.

[TooSlick]

I've dealt with Amsoil and service managers at dealerships for many years. The only concern you will EVER have with a service manager regarding Amsoil is that you follow the manufacturers recommended service intervals while the vehicle is under warranty. I recently took my 2002 Audi TT in for the free service and supplied my own Amsoil 10w-30. They were more than happy to put it in and mentioned that many of their TDI diesel customers also bring in Amsoil to be installed. A number of my customers also take their Amsoil to dealerships or quick lubes to be installed. Quite honestly, the only question I'm ever asked is where to buy the stuff ...

If you have an engine failure with Amsoil while following manufacturers recommended drain intervals, it will be for one of three reasons:

1) There is a design defect in that particular engine - in that case it will affect hundreds if not thousands of engines and there will be some sort of recall program.

2) You allow the oil level to get several quarts low and it overheats

3) There is some sort of abnormal contamination from coolant, fuel or dirt - any of which will clearly show up in a $20.00 oil analysis.

BTW, the main reason why manufacturers recommend using an API licensed oil is to at least insure you find a product that meets minimum quality levels. A recent articles in Lubes and Greases magazine mentioned that 15%-20% of the market share for engine oils still goes to API, "SA" and "SB" rated, non-detergent products that may sell for as little as 69 cents a quart. These nondetergent oils are totally unsuited for use in any modern engine.

To put things in perspective, the API licensing program has only been in effect since about 1990 and the API "Certified for gas engine" program was first introduced in the mid 1990's. The primary reason for the starburst is to encourage folks to use 5w-20 and 5w-30 grades to promote high fuel efficiency.

If you intend to run extended drain intervals in vehicles under warranty, I do recommend supporting them with some oil analysis testing. Oil analysis is considered legal proof that the oil is still servicable.

TS

 

[vettenuts]

If you read the owner's manual for my
Corvette, it specifically states that it must meet API. However, the service manual states that if API is not met for an oil, it must meet ACEA A3, which Amsoil does so I am happy.

 

[Mystic]

I didn't know if Redline has the starburst symbol or not-I have never used Redline. In my owner's manual they talk about both the API starburst symbol and viscosity, with 5W-30 being the preferred viscosity but 0W-30 is allowed in very cold weather and 10W-30 is allowed in warmer weather if 5W-30 is not available.

I doubt anybody would ever have problems with Amsoil oil. In fact I have used Amsoil oil (although not in my new car). However, if you did use Amsoil and some sort of problem came up, would the dealer give you a hassle?

 

[Spector]

RedLine is Not API certified.

As to waranty, YES, if the dealer knew that you used a non API oil they would definitely try to deny any claim for damage and probably force you into arbitration or court. They would lose but you would be faced with possible expenses up front (hire Terry to testify, a forensic mechanic etc) and worst of all, no transportation while the battle wages on, could be months to years for a determination. that is why many new car owners go with the dealer and recommended oil for the warranty period. Personally, I never have bothered to worry about the warranty and used Amsoil all along but many people just do not wish to take the risk.

 

[Mystic]

And that is why I think Amsoil should get API certification for all of their oils. Many people who have new cars would not use an Amsoil oil because of the lack of the API symbol. Three years or seven years later (however long the warranty period is for the vehicle), they probably will not switch to Amsoil because the vehicle is older and has a lot of miles.

If Amsoil oils were API certified and had the API symbol on them, dealers could not complain about the motor oil and might even encourage the use of such a high quality oil.

 

[White Fang]

The owner's manual for my Cadillac CTS says -
"Oils recommended for your vehicle can be identified by looking for the starburst symbol.
This symbol indicates that the oil has been certified by the American Petroleum Institute (API). Do not use any oil which does not carry this starburst symbol. If you change your own
oil, be sure you use oil that has the starburst
symbol on the front of the oil container. If you have your oil changed for you, be sure the oil put into your engine is American Petroleum Institute certified for gasoline engines."
On the Amsoil website they have a picture of the bottle with the starburst symbol. They also claim it meets API specs. What am I missing?

 

[msparks]

quote:

---

Originally posted by vettenuts:
If you read the owner's manual for my
Corvette, it specifically states that it must meet API. However, the service manual states that if API is not met for an oil, it must meet ACEA A3, which Amsoil does so I am happy.

---

Amsoil does "meet" API. It's just not certified energy conserving.

Look at the back of the bottle, it will list the specs that Amsoil meets, if you have a corvette it should meet the "GM4718-m" which is specific to corvette.

Amsoil(ASL) also "meets or exceeds" ILSAC GF-1, G-2, GF-3, API SL, SJ, SJ and CF. As well as other specifications.

Hope this helps.

 

[buster]

quote:

---

Amsoil does "meet" API. It's just not certified energy conserving.

---

I'm glad it's not energy conserving. If I wanted to conserve energy, I'd buy a freakin Toyota Prius.

 

[therion]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ferrari:
I'll run Motul 8100 0W-40 in the Passat, and may decide to run it in my car as well. It's ester based and has a higher HTHS than the Mobil 1. I'm sure it's better...

---

Wow that looks like an AWESOME oil. Have any oil analysis done??

 

[Johnny]

I think some of the statements being mentioned on this need to be corrected. Now before anyone gets their dandruff up, I'm not bashing Amsoil, Red Line, Motul or any others.

1. The starbust on the front of an Amsoil bottle is not the API starbust (It is on their XL series oils only). The API starburst says in the outer circle, "AMERICAN PETROLUEM INSTITUTE CERTIFIED" and on the inside of the starbust "FOR GASOLINE ENGINES"

2. If an oil such as Amsoil, Red Line, Motul, etc., says on the back of the bottle it meets or exceed API SL or whatever does not mean it is certified by the API. If you look on the back of an oil bottle that is API certified you will see what the call the API donut. In the top of the circle you will see API SERVICE SL and whatever API spec it meets. In the bottom of the circle you will see ENERGY CONSERVING if it is an 0W, 5W, or 10W30. In the middle of the donut you will see SAE and the weight of the oil. If the oil does not have this donut, it is not API certified.

Now I have read alot on here about not respecting the API and their specs are weak. The API does not set the specs. The car manufactures tell the oil companies what they want their oils to do and the API comes up with the test to meet these specs. It is the car manufactures that want the Phos and ZDDP levels lowered, not the API. So if an oil is licensed by and meets the API specs as written, it meets the specs of the car manufactures.

Now, there is a new oil spec coming out that we all know about, GF-4, probably API SM. If Amsoil, Red Line, and others do not do something to lower the Phos and Zinc levels in their oil, your new 2005 American or Japanese auto's warranty just might be voided.

The car manufacures are convinced that these additives can cause damage to you catalitic converter and the federal government has mandated that the car manufacture covers this for 150,000 miles.

Now this may never happen, but if your new cars cat goes out at 3,000 to 60,000 miles while under the standard warranty or up to 150,000 miles after the warranty and your oil sample showes higher than recommended phos or zinc in it, you will be paying for this expensive service, not the manufacture.

Personally I think Amsoil, Red Line, and Motul are GREAT oils, but it does not matter what I think or you think if this issue should arrise.

 

[heyjay]

quote:

---

Originally posted by buster:
I'm glad Amsoil doesn't get full certified API. The API restricts what you can do in terms of additives. I think one aspect that makes Amsoil unique is that they don't cater to anyone and try and build the best oils with the best materials out there. They use higher levels of ZDDP in there oils, hence the lack of API, but I'd rather have more then less considering the whole CAT poisioning issue is pretty weak, especially if you use low volatile ZDDP. If you want a fully API Cert. oil, use Mobil 1 which is as good.

---

Cat poisening? Like if I try to feed my kitty some chocolate?? I had to rush him to the vet after he started licking a cooling pan of Jello Chocolat Pudding, he was fine.

Howcome the Europeans don't seem as worried about this issue? Seems VW and Porsche in particular scoff at the mention of "Starburst." Many of their engine-specific oils would raise Horror at the API.

The Europeans test their oils to "real world" standards using a host of "real" engines. We use a Buick V6 and a specialized one-cylinder test motor, a glorified lawnboy engine.

The fuel you use will have a major impact on cat efficiency and life. I don't mean the obvious issue of using leaded gas.

High sulfur is really bad, and I notice the Europeans lowered their sulfur levels in gasoline and especially diesel LONG before we did: European cars have catalytic converters. I think we're still 1-2 years away from low sulfur diesel fuels. How about phosphorous levels??

Fuel additives are also important. Here in Canada you can use very high levels of MMT (Methylcyclopentadienyl Manganese Tricarbonyl) as an anti-knock additive. MMT is made by Ethyl Corp, the same fine folks who put lead in gasoline for +7 decades.

Just like lead in gasoline, Ethyl Corp also claims that MMT, especially the manganease, is harmless, does NO harm to catalytic converters, is GOOD for you, etc. The CBC program Marketplace had a VERY interesting expose on MMT, search at www.cbc.ca.

The relavent API/SAE specs have little input from automotive makers. The "Starburst" is truly a "lowest common denominator" specification. Especially when you compare how the ACEA and API/SAE test their oils. In Europe the makers specify how an oil should behave, here the oil companies do.

Otherwise who are they kidding a 49 cent a quart Brand X is "just as good" as a +$5 / quart synthetic? Well, they must be, they both have the "Starburst" approval.

That's why some American makers have to develop their own standards, such as GM 4718M, Chrysler MS 9615, and the Ford Mustang Cobra needing Mobil 1 15W-50. Gee, why can't I use a "low bidder" oil in those applications? I thought "Starburst" was some sort of Seal Of Approval??

In the end, poor maintenance will lead to early catalytic failure. Say you use a cheapie volitile "Starburst" 5W-30 and the car burns a quart every 2,000 miles. I'm sure you can work the math to figure out how many quarts have gone through that cat by 100,000 miles (50 quarts).

A low volitility synthetic oil allowing 1 quart every +5,000 miles (20 quarts) has a dramatic effect on catalytic efficiency and life. Not to mention our environment.

Jerry

 

[Johnny]

I totally agree with you 100% except for the part about the manufactures having no say about the API/SAE spec. It is the car manufacture in this country that says what they want an oil to do as in the GM specs you quoted, and the API figures out what has to be done to formulate an oil to meet these specs. We ain't buying cars in Europe or Canada, it is the good old USA that mandates the warranty requirements for those cats. I'm not saying it's right, but that's the way it is.

 

[Eastexan]

Johnny, thanks for your input. I learned a couple things.

 

[JohnBrowning]

As an ex-Tech. I can assure you that other then a sludge situation the dealer will not do fluid analysis. The OEM might have the Tech. save a sample of all fluids for in house testing if their is a waranty concern going on with a particular product! They do not go deep enough to ook at the actual make up of the oil other then standard UOA testing.

I tell paranoid people to just stick with what they can buy at Walmart or the parts store!

Delaers only question oil in slude cases 99% of the time! THe people that get in trouble are the ones that volanteer to much information! Remember dealerships are under a lot of pressure to reduce warranty costs to the OEM. They are required to call and get permission now before any engine or transmission can be replaced. They are basicly set up to make sure that the Tech has properly trouble shot the engine or trans before decideing to replace the power train! THey do not ask for UOA!

 

[dropitby]

Too Slick wrote:Oil analysis is considered legal proof that the oil is still servicable.

John Browning wrote:THe people that get in trouble are the ones that volanteer to much information! Remember dealerships are under a lot of pressure to reduce warranty costs to the OEM. They are required to call and get permission now before any engine or transmission can be replaced.

So we consumers would like to use a better product than joining the Recommended oil crowd.1) What part of the oil report tells them the oil is in servicable condition. 2) does it need to be confirmed by the analyzer and printed for it to be acceptable.3)All this to fight a dealer over a problem that most of the time is not oil related. Perhaps good companys like AMSOIL will cave in to pressure like Mobil 1 and Schaeffer oil did.The fact that raising the bar on oil to perhaps be a superior product is not because of non conformity it is a blending choice to provide us with options and as long as they give us good analysis as proof we will continue to use RED LINE AMSOIL and alike.

 

[Mike_dup1]

quote:

---

They are required to call and get permission now before any engine or transmission can be replaced.

---

They can't trust many of the dealers to do the job right. It seems that when something is wrong and they can't fix it, "lets just replace the engine". It has little to do with how the customer takes care of it but more to do with keeping the dealer honest. Now they back-bill the dealer if the parts they must send it turn out to be good and the dealer replaced a bad part out of laziness, ineptitude or to make the customer thing they were fixing the problem. Its surprising how many people that given a warranty feel cheated unless they get something out of it. I have it many times, someone will say, heck my warranty is up in a month and I got to find something wrong or else the manf. is going to get away with screwing me.


A person I know was telling us his brother was (sold out after this deal) a big Dodge dealer in the Chicago area. Well it seemed their service dept had one of the highest engine/trans replacement rates in the zone. So Dodge wanted to plant a spy in the shop and did with the owner being the only one who knew. They found out the service manager and parts manager along with a few techs were running a racket. When a vehicle was in for anything involving engine or trans, they would drain the oil, run the engine till it made noise, put the oil back in and tell the customer his engine was bad and they would replace it under warranty if possible and they stick the customer with the bill if they could not the manf. Naturally, they had all the parts in stock. There pay was incentive based and the more work the shop had the more they were paid. They were screwing the customer, the dealer and Dodge. Had been going on for some time but they got greedy and thats when the bean counters noticed the high failure rate as this dealer was above the norm.

 

[XS650]

quote:

---

Originally posted by vettenuts:
If you read the owner's manual for my
Corvette, it specifically states that it must meet API. However, the service manual states that if API is not met for an oil, it must meet ACEA A3, which Amsoil does so I am happy.

---

Makes sense, the probably need that for their small but profitable Euro market. What year Corvette?

 

[unDummy]

Keep foot in mouth concerning the warranty. Hows the dealer gonna prove what oil is being used? Owners manuals usually RECOMMENDS what should be used. OEM can keep their recommendations to themselves. I'll pick the oil and OCI of my choice.
Plus, manuals tend to be written by tech writers(some not technical). Try working with the communication channels in some companies. Engineers want this. Accountants want that. Tech writers want info and end up writing a "fiction" owners manual generic to just about any vehicle. And, marketing gives consumers whatever BS they can believe(also known as friends hearsay and dealer hard time).

API is full of enviro-eco weenies.
Give me an oil that makes my engine last forever. I'll save the world by not burning oil or junking my cars every few years.

At a dealer that I worked at, if an engine failure was sludge related. Then proof of maintenance was asked for. Oil type was definitely less important than OCI.

Oil analysis is a form of intelligence(like keeping maintenance records). This forces the dealership(or arbitrator) to reconsider any warranty refusals since you are a somewhat intelligent PROactive consumer and won't fall for all their bogus refusals.
Its also amazing how quickly you can shut up a dealer service manager just by mentioning the magnuson moss act.

My recommendation is to use the oil of your choice(preferably synthetic). Practice common sense OCIs. If pushing it, have UOA proof that the oil was still good.

And above all, get to know your vehicle. Address issues prior to failure. Keep an eye on TSBs/recalls and issues that other people are complaining about(NHTSA and internet research).