Amsoil thickening and long drains....

[TooSlick]

Doug,

All your oil samples show abnormal levels of nitration and oxidation - this is what is causing the high solids level and making the oil thicken in a very short period. Elevated nitration/oxidation are due to an engine that is not functioning the way it should and are NOT an oil problem. I suspect you will see this same thickening occur regardless of what oil you use, in fact I'm very sure of it.

Accelerated nitration is typically caused by an engine with low combustion efficiency, due to plugs in poor condition bad engine timing, etc. It can also be caused by elevated cylinder head temps - ie the Toyota V-6 problem. The other thing is to make sure the EGR valve is operating normally and isn't staying partially open all the time and dumping "NOx" laden exhaust gases back into the engine. Accelerated oxidation is also caused by elevated engine temps, only it occurs in the presence of oxygen, which reacts with the oil to form insoluble polymers....

I've run this same oil for much longer periods of time and never seen this thickening problem. As just one example, I ran some of the Amsoil 0w-30 for 16,000 miles and 1 year in a 97 Vw Jetta - in a very hot climate - and the viscosity was about 12.5 centistokes; up from 11.3. The kind of thickening you are seeing should not occur for 15k to 20k miles in a mechanically sound engine.

I suggest running some Mobil 1 for 5000-6000 miles and testing it - I suspect it will thicken from 10 Cst up to 12-13 Cst in that short a period of time.

Please let me know if I can be of further assistance ....

TS

 

[Motorbike]

quote:

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Originally posted by Doug C:



I think I'll go back to Mobil One. Enough of the Amsoil experiment for me. BTW, M1 0W30 had a visc of 10.49 when it was tested in my engine; so I doubt engine failure.

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That is exactly what the Mobil 0w-30 starts at so it's some stay in grade stuff it seems .

How many miles were on that paricular sample ?

 

[buster]

quote:

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The fact is, engine oil in Harley-Davidson® motorcycles is subject to very high temperatures. Being air-cooled, Harley-Davidson® engines get especially hot while idling in traffic, commonly reaching temperatures up to 240 degrees Fahrenheit. As heat and oxidation increase, so does viscosity, adversely affecting the lubricating qualities of the oil and increasing wear.

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This is from Amsoil's wear test between their oil and Harley D's oils. They acknowledge here that viscosity increasing can lead to increased wear. I have to say though that even though Amsoil sometimes thickens out of grade, I'm not sure it has such a huge impact on wear. Has anyone noticed this?

 

[buster]

Regarding Amsoil and thickenning, why is it though that when Amsoil thickens, wear metals are usually still decent? Doesn't this go against the theory that thickenning leads to increased wear? In Amsoil's defense, their oils show decent wear regardless of the thickenning.

 

[buster]

I have a solution for Amsoil: Make all your oils a 0w-5 so when you hit 12,000 + miles you'll be at a 10w-30.

 

[Gary Allan]

That would be how I'd do it. You start with the 5w-30 in ...hmmm Oct. You should have a decent low 40 weight by Spring ...a nice slow upramp through Summer ...by Oct you're due for a change anyway.

 

[sgtgeek]

As I have no brand loyality at all and only care about my investment (engine).....I don't qualify as an extended OCI guy for sure.....more of an observation.......I am fairly convinced any oil (Mobil1/Amsoil etc) will thicken after 15,000 miles.
I am focused on the protection/lubrication I get for a few runs at the track/around town driving.
I am convinced Amsoil comes as close as anybody out there giving me the functionality/deliverables I look for in a motor oil. I am checking out the GC now (to early to tell) and have high hopes for the new Pennzoil Syn.....but too throw out the baby with the bathwater over this thickening issue is rather silly IMHO.
I also would like to go on the record as saying I hate the way Amsoil is marketed and some of the reps are just plan "uninformed".....but the oil is great.....

 

[buster]

quote:

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I also would like to go on the record as saying I hate the way Amsoil is marketed and some of the reps are just plan "uninformed".....but the oil is great.....

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I feel the same way. I agree too that they make great oil. I like to pick at them now and then.

 

[Pablo]

If you hang out here, you can ignore the real world Amsoil dealers

Btw - thanks for resurrecting this thread - I've been contemplating another assault on Al's fort.

 

[bulwnkl]

Are you guys still seeing the thickening? I tested a batch of Amsoil's 10W030 a few months back and it had thickened noticeably in the relatively short interval (under 7,000 IIRC). The lab didn't to a TBN (again!) despite my request, so I couldn't see that.
I have had RedLine thicken up on me once recently, too. Their explanation was that they considered a slight thickening an advantage. Not an answer to my question of "why." Also, the Paradise Garage study shows Amsoil thickening.
I have never had Mobil 1 thicken in a 10,000 OCI on any of my vehicles (V-10 Dodge farm pickup, 9-3 SAAB, 3.4 V-6 Toyota farm pickup, Plymouth Neon); it always stays right in grade.
I'd REALLY like to try some 0W-30 Castrol, but I can't find that grade here so far.

 

[sgtgeek]

I hear ya on the GC. I couldn't find it forever...voila...then Ihit the mother load.....now I can't swing a dead cat without finding it....now truth is I have to go through 40 bottles of it to find ten of the GC......

Back on topic....what % of thickening did you experiance?

 

[bulwnkl]

quote:

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Originally posted by sgtgeek:
...Back on topic....what % of thickening did you experiance?

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Well, I can't edit my post any more or I'd modify/delete some. I no longer have hardly any of my old analysis results. I thought I had kept them but I did not. So, I retract any specific claims I made above-- sorry

The lab that tested the Amsoil recently only gives grades, not viscosities, so I never had a percentage. The OCI was about 7700 miles and wear metals were very low, so performance was very good no matter what else happened.

I have been thinking and tracking things in my mind about the RedLine sample. It was in my SAAB 9-3 and the fill was immediately upon installation of the 250hp computer. I was setting the wastegate during that drain interval and doing lots of testing (very hard driving) in Yuma, AZ, in the winter of '99-'00. I remember only that the 10W-30 was within about 0.1 cSt of a 40wt after less than 5000 miles and that there was enough fuel in the oil to cause the lab to note that it was a little elevated. The TBN was 3.x and the lab considered that low. Wear metals were not terrible, but were also not that great. IIRC Pb was a little high.

EDIT: P.S. I found 6 qts of GC 0W-30 tonight!

 

[TooSlick]

If you go to the oil analysis section, you can see another case of Amsoil thickening in the 5.3L engine after only 12,500 miles. There is clearly something related to the operating characteristics of this motor that is causing this to happen. I believe this engine is calibrated with a very agressive EGR valve duty cycle to decrease emissions and this is causing excessive oxidation/nitration and the formation of insoluble polymers.

In this type of situation, I'd recommend using one of Amsoils CI-4/SL rated oils, such as the Series 3000, 5w-30 or perhaps their 10w-40. I have found these formulations can handle more contamination without excessive thickening.

TS

 

[TooSlick]

Doug,

It's the motor, not the oil....I've used the Series 2000 extensively for the past 10 years and never had thickening issues with it, at least in high performance four/six cylinder engines.

16,000 miles in a 2.0L VW, Vis was 12.8 Cst
12,000 miles in a 2.4L Toyota, Vis was 11.2 Cst
10,500 miles in a 2.3L Honda, Vis was 9.7 Cst
9700 miles in a 3.5L Chrysler, vis was 12.5 Cst

I could go on, but you get the point ....

A number of these GM vortec engines show the same type of oil degradation/thickening, including the 5.3L V-8 and the 4.3L, V-6. I honestly believe it is the way the emissions system is set up that causes this, even in almost new engines ....Again, this is done to decrease exhaust emissions, but as a result more junk ends up in the oil. I believe Terry Dyson will tell you the same thing - I'm sure he's seen it too.

Try running Mobil 1 for 12,500 miles in your engine and let me know what happens.

TS

 

[haley10]

Not to hi-jack, but the timing is bad now that GM is extending the OLM algorithm to go more extended. Just wouldn't want to with their recommended dino.

My BIL has one, so I advise him against this with dino.

 

[TooSlick]

Haley,

I think folks trying to run 5000-7500 mile oil change intervals in the 5.3L engine with conventional oils are going to see significant engine deposits after 50k to 75k miles.

I've mentally flagged this as a potential "problem" engine like the Toyota V-6 and will be watching it closely.

TS

 

[Doug C]

Which does not mean that the GM 5.3L is operating incorrectly. It just means that the 5.3L does not perfom well with the S2K 0W30 oil.

That is why I switched back to Mobil 1 5W30 and continue to follow a 5000 mile OCI.