Amsoil thickening and long drains....

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47,786
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Everson WA - Pacific NW USA
Original question to Amsoil Tech service: Date: Monday, July 26, 2004 at 14:46:34 Name Paul Seminara Comments Why does the 5W-30 ASL (in particular) thicken out of grade to almost a mid SAE 40 in use? I have seen this to some extent with the 0W-30 as well, but mostly the ASL. It's quite troublesome to folks when it happens in PERFECTLY running engines at 7000 or 8000 miles. Sometimes it starts at 5K miles and doesn't get really thickened in until 10K miles, but still the oil doesn't make it to 15K miles. ______________________________________________ First answer from Tech: From: D.... Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 7:40 AM To: Paul Seminara Subject: FW: Technical Service Contact Form This can be quite common in engines that have very small oil sumps, or engines that are operated under severe service intervals all the time. ________________________________________________ My response: From: Paul Seminara Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 9:57 AM To: Subject: RE: Technical Service Contact Form D......, Please work with me here. Thank you for admitting it does happen. I am aware that it is worse in small sumps and in severe conditions. Quite common, but yet we just say 35,000 miles or one year for almost all cars out there - and no further distinctions. (Yes I know for turbos and commercial apps, and by oil the OCI is limited) You didn't answer, "why?" Nor, do you say what Amsoil is doing about this premature thickening. As a dealer this leaves me severely exposed. I definitely "moderate" to the best of my ability how and what vehicles customers use the products in, because I know the oil will not make 35,000 or 25,000 miles. I have solutions, but I know the use of Lube Control is not kosher from Amsoil's point of view (but chemically it does work well by increasing the lost solvency of the oil) Anyhow, we dealers need more, especially as the competition not only has passed us, the gap is widening. Thank you, Paul Seminara ___________________________________________ Response #2 from tech: Paul, The drain intervals are classified by a service category and unit vocation. Our literature does indicate a recommended drain interval "up to" 35,000 miles, or one year, whichever comes first. However, the G-1490 AMSOIL Product Change Interval Guide, which breaks down drain interval recommendations based on what type of vehicle and severity of use indicates the following about the use of Series 2000 0W-30 Synthetic Motor Oil: * Personal passenger vehicles w/ gas engines- Up to 35,000 miles or one year, whichever comes first (severe service conditions may warrant shorter service intervals) * Turbocharged gas engines- Up to three times longer or six months * High performance or racing- Based on oil analysis * Light duty non turbocharged diesel engines- Up to two times longer or six months * Marine use or occasionally used gas engines- Up to two times longer or one year * Gas fleet vehicles or industrial use- Up to two times longer with oil analysis, or six months Based on this information, we hope this clarifies that AMSOIL is indicating that the Series 2000 0W-30 will not reach 35,000 miles, or one year, in every application. In an ideal condition the statement is true that the oil can reach 35,000 miles, or one year. However, ideal operating conditions generally are rare to most automotive applications. We hope this answers your concerns over this matter. D..... Technical Service Department ______________________________________________ The saga continues....but at least they are saying the 35K conditions are "rare"....
 

MolaKule

Staff member
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Iowegia - USA
But they never really answered your original question about oil thickening. [Confused] Oxidation is the major culprit for thickening with particle "loading" coming in probably second place. Makes we wonder if their antioxidants or base oils are up to par.
 
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34,194
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South Jersey
Pablo, I give you credit for pressing them on this issue. Most Amsoil dealers don't have the courage to do that. They will make excuses etc. [Cheers!] Keep hounding them about it.
 

Pablo

Thread starter
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Everson WA - Pacific NW USA
I know, so I followed up with: -----Original Message----- From: Paul Seminara Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 12:20 PM To: Subject: RE: Technical Service Contact Form D...., Great answer that should help. But why is that the oil thickens, at a rate faster than say Mobil 1, in the same engine? Thanks, Paul
 
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2,602
Location
The Tropics of Antartica
I am not a chemist so a SWAG from me is it's the chemisty since even the supposed superior base oils in the 0w-30 thicken too . My daughters car " 3.0 Ford " was ran in ambient temps of 50F - 80F with Amsoil HP 10w-40 for 3888 miles and it thickened to 15.3 . IMO the sky would have been the limit if ran longer and or higher temps so I picked up some new product Berryman # 0519 advertised to have a powerfull anti-oxident to experiment with but since have sold the two cases of 10w-40 I had . The plan now is to use 10w-30 Amsoil with the # 0519 and see what happens . Yep , this product has other additives too like a metal deactivator and a friction modifier but it was the only way I could buy an OTC anti - oxident . Time / miles and analysis will tell if it helps oxidative thickening in this engine .
 
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34,194
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South Jersey
I bet Amsoil gets locked into contracts with certain suppliers for a certain amount of time and can't "tweak" things as often as Mobil can. Their oils do thicken although I thought the recent pattern was that they have improved. [I dont know]
 
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324
Location
California
quote:
Originally posted by MolaKule: But they never really answered your original question about oil thickening. [Confused] Oxidation is the major culprit for thickening with particle "loading" coming in probably second place. Makes we wonder if their antioxidants or base oils are up to par.
MoleKule, What's a particle "loading"?
 
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USA
I agree Amsoil does produce excellent products. I would rather not have my oil thinning out in extended OCI especially in heavy engine application.
 

Pablo

Thread starter
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Everson WA - Pacific NW USA
I must say also - I have only seen this with the ASL (PAO 5W-30) and the 0W-30 in selected cars. Certainly not with the HDD 5W-30 or the 15W-40 or S2K 20W-50. Buster - I can't say if this is an old formula vs. new formula thing, because it seems to depend more on the engine and service conditions than anything. ALSO - for the newbies reading this - we are talking about a slight thickening into a 40 wt oil, not some gone gonzo sludgefest.
 
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56
Location
NY
As quoted by Pablo
quote:

D...., Great answer that should help. You can't defend Amsoil claim of 25K or 35K extended OCI as no synthetic oil without proper filteration to keep the TBN in check it just not going to happen for any synthetic oil on the market....A bypass filteration is the only way any oil regardless can go 25K or 35K OCI. As for any oil dino or synthetic with a bypass the oil can be far extended...as filteration is a must to clean all combution to PROTECT the oil for extended OCI. I feel Amsoil claim which it states can be accomplished but misinterpreted one who interprets what is on the label. As far as synthetic oil can you say the Mobil ATF is or by opinion a better performer than Amsoil ATF. I don't think so(opinion) as Amsoil has many products as is Redline's ATF it performs better than we can purchase what we pay for. I look at synthetic oil as it PERFORMS...there are plus and minus in any product it's hard to defer what we want from any application but best wishes IF you feel confident in what you believe is right for you vehicle YOU ARE NOT WRONG....You payed for your car!!!!
 
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Location
Clearwater, FL
For the record, I am an Amsoil fan. I have experienced this phenomenon first hand and offer my results for your consderation/discussion. I have also asked Amsoil (actually I have communicated with the OAI division about it, not the tech staff) about this same topic. The conclusion I have come to is that 1) every application is different and that 2) we should all counsel our customers and friends that every extended drain application should be verified with oil analysis before the car is blindly driven 25,000 miles on one batch of oil. My application was 1999 4.6L Ford Crown Vic, driven mostly highway miles, in Florida heat. I ran ASL 5w30 for 15000 mile drain intervals with SDF full flow filter changes and oil analysis every 7500 miles. I performed this practice over 30000 miles from 50,000-80,000. My observation was that the oil does thicken to 40 wt at 7500 and nearly 50 wt after 15000. Strangely, oxidation, nitration, TBN, and wear metals were all fine, actualy quite good, at these intervals. No one has been able to explain the thickening to me either. My application is not what I would consider extreme. Actually with all those highway miles, I would consider the application at the easy end of normal. The folks at OAI however, were not surprised with my results. They stated that modern American V-8s run hot by design, with 8 cylinders there is more blow by than 4 or 6, and the high ambient temp in FL and A/C running year round all contribute to an "extreme" definition. The point is, every application is different and must be verified with UOA. I am experimenting in a newer Crown Vic right now and XL-7500 5w20. No results as of yet. Don Corrected a word. [ July 30, 2004, 12:21 AM: Message edited by: 59 Vetteman ]
 

Jay

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Idaho Falls, ID
The Amsoil 5w-30 ASL has a very good NOACK volatility percentage--only 6.9%. Does the thickening indicate a weakness of this oil or a strength? Perhaps it's extremely shear stable.
 
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Location
London, AR
Don, Did you use a bypass filter during that run? This is where I think a bypass filter would help because you are changing filters and adding a quart/make-up oil. This should keep it from thickening. Just an idea, and cannot prove that it would work, but it seems logical. [I dont know]
 
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Location
Florida
I side with Jay on this one. Maybe the thickening is for a positive reason, but its interpreted as a negative. It could be that these oils are thickening by design. It doesn't explain the rapid drop in TBN though. [I dont know] Daily Drives: -2003 Toyota Tacoma PreRunner XtraCab, 2.7 Liter , Mobil1 Synthetic SS 5W-30. ODO 9600 Miles. -1995 Toyota 4-Runner 3.0 V6, Mobil1 Synthetic SS 10W-30. ODO 91800 Miles. http://community.webshots.com/user/amkeer
 
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120
Location
Clearwater, FL
quote:
Originally posted by 59 Vetteman: Don, Did you use a bypass filter during that run? This is where I think a bypass filter would help because you are changing filters and adding a quart/make-up oil. This should keep it from thickening. Just an idea, and cannot prove that it would work, but it seems logical. [I dont know]
No Bypass.....I am considering that idea but have not tired it yet. I did add one qt of make up oil over each 7500 miles (it used to use one qt per 1500 of the MC 5W20) and one qt at the filter change time. This helped keep the TBN in check but not the viscosity. This is one of the reasons I am experimenting with the 5W20. My theory is that if I use 20 wt as make up it may help keep the overall viscosity in check. Don
 
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