Amsoil - Performance Tests

[OVERKILL]

Even those are still super generic and a little misleading .

The first slide, comparing a 0w40 to a 'market general full synthetic' and 'market general semi synthetic' - like... Okay? So you're comparing a 0w40 to... What? Another 0w40? Who makes a synthetic blend 0w40?

Well, they ARE marketing, lol (though this isn't geared toward Joe Consumer obviously).

Does it really matter the grades though? My takeaway is that they are showing how well this particular product performs in this test, despite the wide spread (being a 0W-40).

Side by side of their own oil in slide 2, sure, decent. Shows improvement over the previous formulation series.

Shows how much better this particular Mobil 1 product performs relative to their less expensive product lines. Which I think reinforces the idea that the premium tiers from brands (no matter who it is) do perform better than their cheaper offerings.

The last slide, a 5w50 vs again, market general fully synthetic... Uh, okay? What sort of oil? 0w20? 5w20? 5w30? 10w30?

It's just very biased marketing still and even a little misleading in ways.

I'm not sure the grade matters here either, I think it's just another example of how a higher tier product; a product slotted at a higher price point should be expected to provide better performance.

 

[Foxtrot08]

Well, they ARE marketing, lol (though this isn't geared toward Joe Consumer obviously).

Does it really matter the grades though? My takeaway is that they are showing how well this particular product performs in this test, despite the wide spread (being a 0W-40).

Shows how much better this particular Mobil 1 product performs relative to their less expensive product lines. Which I think reinforces the idea that the premium tiers from brands (no matter who it is) do perform better than their cheaper offerings.

I'm not sure the grade matters here either, I think it's just another example of how a higher tier product; a product slotted at a higher price point should be expected to provide better performance.

It is marketing and again, I'm just bitching about marketing is all.


The grades matter significantly, especially back in the early 2000's when this report was made. Back then those more 'exotic' grades were certainly PAO/Ester blends, where as your typically full synthetic 5w30, or 'market grade' full synthetic, was a Group III. Those higher end Mobil products, 0w40, 5w50, 10w60, etc. Were essentially 'boutique' oils 20 years ago. Mobil had very little competition.


Marketing wise, in the early 2000's if they wanted to show the difference, they would do their 5w30 vs a 'market general' full synthetic 5w30. Or do a break down like P66 did, but name names.

However, just no one will name-names (often) because of the legal issues. As we saw in the Rotella vs Delvac purse swinging event a few years ago.

 

[OVERKILL]

The spinning disc doesn't replicate the piston movement on an engine. It's as good as a Project Farm test.

Weird, because thin film oxidation tests (TFOUT for example) are regarded as valid tests industry-wide, with good correlation to certain engine tests:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/283411762_A_thin-film_oxygen_uptake_test_for_the_evaluation_of_automotive_crankcase_lubricants

Standard Test Method for Oxidation Stability of Lubricants by Thin-Film Oxygen Uptake (TFOUT) Catalyst B

Significance and Use 5.1 This test method was originally developed to evaluate oxidation stability of lubricating base oils combined with additives chemistries similar to those found in gasoline engine oils and service.2 5.2 This test method is useful fo

www.astm.org

Standard Test Method for Oxidation Stability of Gasoline Automotive Engine Oils by Thin-Film Oxygen Uptake (TFOUT)

Significance and Use 5.1 This test method is used to evaluate oxidation stability of lubricating base oils with additives in the presence of chemistries similar to those found in gasoline engine service. Test results on some ASTM reference oils have been

www.astm.org

https://www.labequip.com/stock/pictures/n885.pdf

Quantum Oxidation Tester - RPVOT Oxidation Test

The Quantum® Oxidation Tester is the only field-proven non-liquid RPVOT (formerly known as RBOT) instrument in the industry used for evaluating oxidation resistance over a broad range of oils and lubricants.

www.tannasking.com

 

[OVERKILL]

It is marketing and again, I'm just bitching about marketing is all.


The grades matter significantly, especially back in the early 2000's when this report was made. Back then those more 'exotic' grades were certainly PAO/Ester blends, where as your typically full synthetic 5w30, or 'market grade' full synthetic, was a Group III. Those higher end Mobil products, 0w40, 5w50, 10w60, etc. Were essentially 'boutique' oils 20 years ago. Mobil had very little competition.


Marketing wise, in the early 2000's if they wanted to show the difference, they would do their 5w30 vs a 'market general' full synthetic 5w30. Or do a break down like P66 did, but name names.

However, just no one will name-names (often) because of the legal issues. As we saw in the Rotella vs Delvac purse swinging event a few years ago.

I should probably note that this presentation was specifically about the 0W-40 and its transition from PAO to VISOM (their Group III+). There's also this slide:

Which shows very little (but some) cleanliness difference between the PAO (current) and VISOM (future) versions of the product.

 

[DirectRejection]

The Sequence IVA test is not very precise. If I recall correctly, I believe the reproducibility is ± 22 µm, which means that all results below 45 µm are statistically equal. So a result at the top of the specification of 90 µm could actually test at 45 µm in a second test, and a result of 20 µm could retest at 65µm Not a suitable test for making "% Better" claims as many companies have done.

Huge point Sir. I know your chops.

Now a question from a motor oil scrub. How do you do that backwards upside down h on your keyboard, and is that increment greater than or lesser than ppm ?

 

[RDY4WAR]

Those that use only boutique oils will tell you that API oils are bare minimum watered-down garbage. We know that's not true. The off the shelf synthetics, especially the top tier within the line, greatly exceed the IVA, IIIH, V, TEOST, and GM Turbo tests.

I don't think common shelf oils are watered down garbage. I just think they have different priorities. Mobil 1, Pennzoil, Valvoline, etc... their number 1 priority is profit. Be competitive on the Walmart shelf. Mobil 1 likely has a higher standard than other majors, but I guarantee a lot of that testing is finding ways to perform at that standard at a lower production cost. They have to keep production cost low in order to keep retail cost reasonable against the other major competitors on the shelf.

Let's face it, the majority of the general public shops by cost. They don't know what API even is, much less care about it. Same for Sequence IIIG, IIIH, IVA, MTM, SRV, PDSC, TGA, Teost, etc... they couldn't care less. They MIGHT give some consideration to the marketing on the label. Most of them though find the sales and bundles. They have no pride in what brand they use. In fact, a month later, they probably couldn't even tell you what brand they bought. If you were to poll the entire population, I bet you 90-95% couldn't tell you brand of oil is in their engine. Most of them rolled through Jiffy Lube, paid no attention to what oil they use, paid Amsoil price for Pennzoil, and drove off.

The boutique blenders tend to not prioritize cost. Amsoil probably does somewhat because they have to pay 3 middle men of the pamphlet regurgitation association before it gets to you. Otherwise, their main priority is performance. They don't have to be competitive on the Walmart shelf, nor do they have a desire to.

Think of it like steaks. You can get a decent choice ribeye from Walmart. Then there's Myer's steaks, who's major customer is the 5-star restaurants selling that steak at $100 plate. They have no interest in competing on the Walmart shelf against the low buck options. Same deal.

 

[Mainia]

I'm waiting for a Project Farm comparison test.

That is already out there. How could you of missed that?

 

[buster]

I have no doubt that HPL/Amsoil build top shelf oils using on top notch components. While under warranty, I'd rather not take on the liability of using an oil that is not approved simply to avoid a potential headache dealing with a dealership and warranty issues. Out of warranty, no problem.

If the top tier offerings from Mobil, Vavloline, Castrol or Pennzoil greatly exceed all of the industry standard tests, have been tested for 20k mile drain intervals using Las Vegas taxi fleets, MA State Police, and engines today are outlasting the rest of the car, I'm comfortable with that.

Honestly, the only boutique brands that appear impressive are Amsoil, HPL and RL. The rest of them not so much.

Economies of scale favor the larger companies and there are diminishing returns with oil formulations. This is why Mobil can produce the 0w40 at the price point it is at.

Businesses don't operate to not make money, so of course profit and marketing are involved. That's a given. When you develop a product, you have to market it.

 

[buster]

Think of it like steaks. You can get a decent choice ribeye from Walmart. Then there's Myer's steaks, who's major customer is the 5-star restaurants selling that steak at $100 plate. They have no interest in competing on the Walmart shelf against the low buck options. Same deal.

I'll use Italian food - Olive Garden vs mom/pop restaurant.

Olive Garden:
Mobil Synthetic
Castrol GTX
Pennzoil yellow bottle

Sapori:
Mobil 1
Valvoline EP
PUP
Castrol EDGE EP

I may be stretching it

 

[Tom NJ]

Huge point Sir. I know your chops.

Now a question from a motor oil scrub. How do you do that backwards upside down h on your keyboard, and is that increment greater than or lesser than ppm ?

The µ symbol is accessed with ALT 0181 on your numeric keyboard. It stands for "micro" which means one millionth, and in the case of µm it means micrometer (one millionth of a meter). This is a measure of length, as opposed to ppm which is a measure of quantity.

ALT Codes

 

[demarpaint]

Businesses don't operate to not make money, so of course profit and marketing are involved. That's a given. When you develop a product, you have to market it.

Bingo on your entire post but this really jumps out. To think that any company isn't in business to make a profit would be stupid for lack of a better term. Every business owner, CEO, shareholder, etc. wakes up every morning to make a profit, the boutique blenders included. Nothing wrong with making a profit, but to think a boutique blender spares no expense would be another mistake. At some point a product can become too expensive to produce and sell for a profit. Final thoughts, higher prices don't always equal a better product. FTR I am not targeting any companies, just generalizing, this applies to my business and the industry I'm in as well. In fact I can't think of an industry it doesn't apply to.

 

[Bill_W]

Before Mobil 1 synthetic oil there was Amsoil synthetic. Both had issues with oil seal shrinkage which was controlled in reformulation. Just some info… Back then this was state of the art oil. Mobil 1 reformulation today from a few years ago. Always moving forward.

 

[DirectRejection]

The µ symbol is accessed with ALT 0181 on your numeric keyboard. It stands for "micro" which means one millionth, and in the case of µm it means micrometer (one millionth of a meter). This is a measure of length, as opposed to ppm which is a measure of quantity.

ALT Codes

Thank you.
Again, that is such a big point you made.
Tom NJ contributions to BITOG are very informative.
(Long time lurker.)

 

[OVERKILL]

Before Mobil 1 synthetic oil there was Amsoil synthetic. Both had issues with oil seal shrinkage which was controlled in reformulation. Just some info… Back then this was state of the art oil. Mobil 1 reformulation today from a few years ago. Always moving forward.

From what I recall:
1. @Tom NJ noted that AMSOIL was originally POE based, so it would not have had seal shrink issues
2. The original Mobil 1 (API approved) came out one year after AMSOIL. Of course Mobil had been making synthetic oils for turbines and other apps for years
3. The very first iteration of Mobil 1 (PAO) MAY have had some seal shrink issues, but this was remedied with the inclusion of POE.

 

[Foxtrot08]

I should probably note that this presentation was specifically about the 0W-40 and its transition from PAO to VISOM (their Group III+). There's also this slide:
View attachment 132109
Which shows very little (but some) cleanliness difference between the PAO (current) and VISOM (future) versions of the product.

Sure. Again, I’m just bitching about marketing because this is the internet.

I ***** about their marketing in person too. At the marketer events and trips.

It’s misleading in my opinion. That opinion - as previously stated - is just another idiots opinion on the internet. (I rarely take myself seriously, so I advise others not to as well.)

I just like pointing it out and being a dork. (I’m also a horribly sarcastic person with a dark sense of humor if you ever meet me.)

 

[Tom NJ]

From what I recall:
1. @Tom NJ noted that AMSOIL was originally POE based, so it would not have had seal shrink issues
2. The original Mobil 1 (API approved) came out one year after AMSOIL. Of course Mobil had been making synthetic oils for turbines and other apps for years
3. The very first iteration of Mobil 1 (PAO) MAY have had some seal shrink issues, but this was remedied with the inclusion of POE.

The original Amsoil (then Amzoil) was based entirely on a diester (Ditridecyl Adipate). The original Mobil 1 was based in a blend of PAO and POE. Neither had issues with seal shrinkage, but Mobil 1 had issues with leakage due to the low viscosity (5W-20) in engines designed for 10W-40 oils.

 

[RDY4WAR]

I have no doubt that HPL/Amsoil build top shelf oils using on top notch components. While under warranty, I'd rather not take on the liability of using an oil that is not approved simply to avoid a potential headache dealing with a dealership and warranty issues. Out of warranty, no problem.

If the top tier offerings from Mobil, Vavloline, Castrol or Pennzoil greatly exceed all of the industry standard tests, have been tested for 20k mile drain intervals using Las Vegas taxi fleets, MA State Police, and engines today are outlasting the rest of the car, I'm comfortable with that.

Honestly, the only boutique brands that appear impressive are Amsoil, HPL and RL. The rest of them not so much.

Economies of scale favor the larger companies and there are diminishing returns with oil formulations. This is why Mobil can produce the 0w40 at the price point it is at.

Businesses don't operate to not make money, so of course profit and marketing are involved. That's a given. When you develop a product, you have to market it.

Allow me to rephrase. I'm not saying boutique blenders aren't worried about profit. They definitely are. They just have a different market with a different standard. At least some of them do. AMS, HPL, and RL are frequently testing formulas to find where they can raise the bar. Schaeffer's, Lucas, and Penngrade, probably not so much.

I'm having a horrible time finding the right words today. I seem to be all over the place.

 

[OVERKILL]

The original Amsoil (then Amzoil) was based entirely on a diester (Ditridecyl Adipate). The original Mobil 1 was based in a blend of PAO and POE. Neither had issues with seal shrinkage, but Mobil 1 had issues with leakage due to the low viscosity (5W-20) in engines designed for 10W-40 oils.

I expect much of the issue with leakage was due to the POE cleaning up deposits, "revealing" leaks that were there, but plugged with crud.

I knew Amzoil was ester based, thanks for the correction on type of ester!

 

[ka9mnx]

The original Amsoil (then Amzoil) was based entirely on a diester (Ditridecyl Adipate). The original Mobil 1 was based in a blend of PAO and POE. Neither had issues with seal shrinkage, but Mobil 1 had issues with leakage due to the low viscosity (5W-20) in engines designed for 10W-40 oils.

...And very quickly came out with 5w-30. 5w-20 M1 quickly disappeared and became unavailable.

 

[Bill_W]

Mobil 1 Visom (GTL) has been around for a long time. Waiting to take over the PAO role Mobil claimed Visom a long time ago comparable (equal) but delayed the formula change to Mobil 1. Now that change happened. How does Shell GTL compare to Mobil GTL?