AMSOIL no longer pursuing Euro OEM approvals

[Foxtrot08]

The development of additive packages is absolutely expensive. I once worked with a PhD chemist at XYZ additive supplier on behalf of a customer to do testing for a specialized hydraulic fluid. My customer had to pay $100k up front just for starters in order to have the formulation certified for various end-user requirements. Additional costs arose of course as testing and tweaking proceeded.

We tested the formula on various equipment, peered over various charts of friction tests, examined wear on pump gears, clutches, controls, pistons, seals, particle counts, FFTIR and other analysis. One test showed a weakness in oxidation requirements so we tweaked the formula with a different dual anti-oxidant, retested, and then settled on the final additive mix.

Before it was over, the bill was close to $200,000. That was back in 2005.

I had heard (through the grapevine) that the Dexron VI formula development, with tweaking and testing cost GM over $3 million. I can't vouch for that figure but it sounded about right.

Honestly seems low.


I worked with an additive company on fleet testing PC-11 and doing some lab work / tear downs. Just the one fleet test we did was north of 5 million dollars. Between all the free oil, lab services, paying a fuel stipend, engine tear downs. Covering cheesy warranty issues for the fleet. Doing live on-truck monitoring, including adding sensors. Having trucks only stop at certain places for fuel. They footed the bill for it all.

Supposedly all their PC-11 development came to over 700 million. And that was when I stepped away from that fleet testing aspect.

Add pack development is extremely expensive.

 

[MolaKule]

Honestly seems low.


I worked with an additive company on fleet testing PC-11 and doing some lab work / tear downs. Just the one fleet test we did was north of 5 million dollars. Between all the free oil, lab services, paying a fuel stipend, engine tear downs. Covering cheesy warranty issues for the fleet. Doing live on-truck monitoring, including adding sensors. Having trucks only stop at certain places for fuel. They footed the bill for it all.

Supposedly all their PC-11 development came to over 700 million. And that was when I stepped away from that fleet testing aspect.

Add pack development is extremely expensive.

GM and Afton had worked on many Dexron series upgrades and motor oil formulations so maybe they had a long-term contract. The development of Dexron VI started in about 2002; Dexron VI was introduced in 2005.

It was 2005 when we did the specialized hydraulic fluid testing.

I can believe 7 to 10 million, but a quarter of a billion seems unbelievable.

 

[Foxtrot08]

GM and Afton had worked on many Dexron series upgrades and motor oil formulations so maybe they had a long-term contract. The development of Dexron VI started in about 2002; Dexron VI was introduced in 2005.

It was 2005 when we did the specialized hydraulic fluid testing.

I can believe 7 to 10 million, but a quarter of a billion seems unbelievable.

A full new category plus FA4, all the API approvals, real world testing, engine testing, emissions testing… I mean that all adds up in a big way. from 3L to 100L engines… I know the spending to develop FA4 was extremely expensive, for little return. Most majors lost their butts on marketing FA4 oils currently. Adoption rate was much lower than predicted.


And it was Afton as well I worked with. Their R&D budget is gigantic, however.

 

[The Lube Guy]

A full new category plus FA4, all the API approvals, real world testing, engine testing, emissions testing… I mean that all adds up in a big way. from 3L to 100L engines… I know the spending to develop FA4 was extremely expensive, for little return. Most majors lost their butts on marketing FA4 oils currently. Adoption rate was much lower than predicted.


And it was Afton as well I worked with. Their R&D budget is gigantic, however.

From Shell's website:

The new FA-4 engine oils will be offered in lower viscosity grades and are designed primarily for next-generation engines to help maximize fuel economy without sacrificing engine protection. These FA-4 oils may have limited backwards compatibility2 and would be labeled as such. Oil companies and OEMs are currently testing these products in a range of applications to demonstrate without sacrificing engine protection.

@Foxtrot08 trucks are very expensive for mere mortals like myself. No matter how much the big companies and engine manufacturers sing the praises of these FA4 oils, I like to run something that has a HTHS above 3.5, preferably at least 4.0. It doesn't matter if it's my X15 or our ancient D60. So 15W-40 it is for most of the year, unless spending lots of time up North-West. I'm guessing that a lot of folks like myself who are small business owners think along the same lines.

Thanks on the tips about Rotella. As you said, friends don't let friends use Rotella. And you are my friend.

 

[Foxtrot08]

From Shell's website:

The new FA-4 engine oils will be offered in lower viscosity grades and are designed primarily for next-generation engines to help maximize fuel economy without sacrificing engine protection. These FA-4 oils may have limited backwards compatibility2 and would be labeled as such. Oil companies and OEMs are currently testing these products in a range of applications to demonstrate without sacrificing engine protection.

@Foxtrot08 trucks are very expensive for mere mortals like myself. No matter how much the big companies and engine manufacturers sing the praises of these FA4 oils, I like to run something that has a HTHS above 3.5, preferably at least 4.0. It doesn't matter if it's my X15 or our ancient D60. So 15W-40 it is for most of the year, unless spending lots of time up North-West. I'm guessing that a lot of folks like myself who are small business owners think along the same lines.

Thanks on the tips about Rotella. As you said, friends don't let friends use Rotella. And you are my friend.

Yeah don’t get me wrong, I’m not a huge FA4 fan myself. I personally own ~50 newer (2019+) PACCAR products - primarily t880s, 567s and 548s. With PX9s, Mx13s and X15s. I just took delivery of 8 new Pete’s in the last 3 weeks.

I don’t run FA4 in them personally. Anything 2015 and newer gets 10w30. (I’ll leave the brand out.) I only have a few 2008-2014s. But they get 15w40. And pre-emissions and glider trucks get 15w40 still.

It also didn’t help that the interns that came up with the marketing campaigns… wow. Come on guys and girls. You can do better.

Remember this gem?

https://phillips66lubricants.com/lowerviscocity/


Now entering lower viscocity!


… I was at the meeting they premiered it in Vegas. And… I was… I was pretty speechless and stunned they spent money on that wonderful piece of marketing excellence…

 

[Bullwinkle007]

count

Yeah don’t get me wrong, I’m not a huge FA4 fan myself. I personally own ~50 newer (2019+) PACCAR products - primarily t880s, 567s and 548s. With PX9s, Mx13s and X15s. I just took delivery of 8 new Pete’s in the last 3 weeks.

I don’t run FA4 in them personally. Anything 2015 and newer gets 10w30. (I’ll leave the brand out.) I only have a few 2008-2014s. But they get 15w40. And pre-emissions and glider trucks get 15w40 still.

It also didn’t help that the interns that came up with the marketing campaigns… wow. Come on guys and girls. You can do better.

Remember this gem?

https://phillips66lubricants.com/lowerviscocity/


Now entering lower viscocity!


… I was at the meeting they premiered it in Vegas. And… I was… I was pretty speechless and stunned they spent money on that wonderful piece of marketing excellence…

What do you haul in the trucking industry?

 

[Foxtrot08]

What do you haul in the trucking industry?

Lubricants.

Lots and lots of lubricants.

A little fuel, a little DEF.

Mostly millions of gallons of oil.

 

[K-Man]

To be a bit skeptical, you do have to wonder why every European manufacturer just has to have its own special little oil specs in addition to ACEA. Engines mostly use the same materials and operate in the same way, and for gasoline engines in cars and light trucks there can't be a huge enough difference to warrant some extra-extra-special additive pack. ACEA already has tight specs.

Frankly, some of these manufacturer specs are probably a racket to force owners to think they must buy factory-approved oil from stealerships. Amsoil has probably realized this and is aiming at a more generic formulation that every European engine can use without problems.

Some members here have sneered at Asian manufacturers' oil and ATF specs using the same logic I just used, but then turn around and say BMW's, VW's, Mercedes-Benz's, etc., are holy and must be followed no matter what, or the engines will grenade themselves, or something. Let's be consistent.

 

[kschachn]

To be a bit skeptical, you do have to wonder why every European manufacturer just has to have its own special little oil specs in addition to ACEA. Engines mostly use the same materials and operate in the same way, and for gasoline engines in cars and light trucks there can't be a huge enough difference to warrant some extra-extra-special additive pack. ACEA already has tight specs.

Frankly, some of these manufacturer specs are probably a racket to force owners to think they must buy factory-approved oil from stealerships. Amsoil has probably realized this and is aiming at a more generic formulation that every European engine can use without problems.

Some members here have sneered at Asian manufacturers' oil and ATF specs using the same logic I just used, but then turn around and say BMW's, VW's, Mercedes-Benz's, etc., are holy and must be followed no matter what, or the engines will grenade themselves, or something. Let's be consistent.

ACEA sequences are a base for subsequent approvals. Most manufacturer approvals add additional requirements to them.

And as far as Asian ATF specs go, no one knows what they are. Do you?

 

[Foxtrot08]

To be a bit skeptical, you do have to wonder why every European manufacturer just has to have its own special little oil specs in addition to ACEA. Engines mostly use the same materials and operate in the same way, and for gasoline engines in cars and light trucks there can't be a huge enough difference to warrant some extra-extra-special additive pack. ACEA already has tight specs.

Frankly, some of these manufacturer specs are probably a racket to force owners to think they must buy factory-approved oil from stealerships. Amsoil has probably realized this and is aiming at a more generic formulation that every European engine can use without problems.

Some members here have sneered at Asian manufacturers' oil and ATF specs using the same logic I just used, but then turn around and say BMW's, VW's, Mercedes-Benz's, etc., are holy and must be followed no matter what, or the engines will grenade themselves, or something. Let's be consistent.

Money.

Ala Dexos.

Just like every subscription based service, streaming service, etc. it’s constant revenue for them.

Whether it’s fee based like Dexos is. Or whether it’s just return to dealership / buying OEM oil business. It’s consistent return revenue for them.

You can toss all fluids in the same category, essentially.

It’s why we see the move away from universal gold antifreeze, to purple, pink, blue, orange, red, etc.

It’s specific power steering fluids. It’s specific gear oils, it’s specific engine oils, etc.

Return to dealership revenue. Make it harder/more expensive for DIY or independent shops.

 

[OVERKILL]

To be a bit skeptical, you do have to wonder why every European manufacturer just has to have its own special little oil specs in addition to ACEA. Engines mostly use the same materials and operate in the same way, and for gasoline engines in cars and light trucks there can't be a huge enough difference to warrant some extra-extra-special additive pack. ACEA already has tight specs.

The ACEA sequences, like the API sequences, are foundational. OEM's use those as a basis for their own specs, often tightening limits on certain parameters or imposing their own tests on top of the ACEA tests.

By your logic, Dexos is a complete racket and the API approval already has "tight specs".

Each approval doesn't require its own bloody additive package. Infineum, Lubrizol, Afton...etc develop approved additive packages that meet a wide range of the OEM approvals right out of the gate. A Full-SAPS additive package for example will start off with A3/B4 and then also have A40, 229.5, 502...etc.

When OEM-approved oils are available off the shelf at reasonable prices at every store including Walmart, I'm not sure as to how this could be construed as some grand conspiracy to force buying oil from the dealership.

Also, AMSOIL cannot make a generic formulation, because there are myriad ACEA categories, with different limits and unless they want to start pulling a Triax and putting "recommended for" approvals that are in a completely different ACEA category that can't possibly be met by the oil carrying the recommendation, I fully expect them to keep their existing multi-product lineup.

 

[Foxtrot08]

The ACEA sequences, like the API sequences, are foundational. OEM's use those as a basis for their own specs, often tightening limits on certain parameters or imposing their own tests on top of the ACEA tests.

By your logic, Dexos is a complete racket and the API approval already has "tight specs".

Each approval doesn't require its own bloody additive package. Infineum, Lubrizol, Afton...etc develop approved additive packages that meet a wide range of the OEM approvals right out of the gate. A Full-SAPS additive package for example will start off with A3/B4 and then also have A40, 229.5, 502...etc.

When OEM-approved oils are available off the shelf at reasonable prices at every store including Walmart, I'm not sure as to how this could be construed as some grand conspiracy to force buying oil from the dealership.

Also, AMSOIL cannot make a generic formulation, because there are myriad ACEA categories, with different limits and unless they want to start pulling a Triax and putting "recommended for" approvals that are in a completely different ACEA category that can't possibly be met by the oil carrying the recommendation, I fully expect them to keep their existing multi-product lineup.

Dexos is a complete racket, to be fair.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

To be a bit skeptical, you do have to wonder why every European manufacturer just has to have its own special little oil specs in addition to ACEA. Engines mostly use the same materials and operate in the same way, and for gasoline engines in cars and light trucks there can't be a huge enough difference to warrant some extra-extra-special additive pack. ACEA already has tight specs.

Frankly, some of these manufacturer specs are probably a racket to force owners to think they must buy factory-approved oil from stealerships. Amsoil has probably realized this and is aiming at a more generic formulation that every European engine can use without problems.

Some members here have sneered at Asian manufacturers' oil and ATF specs using the same logic I just used, but then turn around and say BMW's, VW's, Mercedes-Benz's, etc., are holy and must be followed no matter what, or the engines will grenade themselves, or something. Let's be consistent.

Long drain intervals are why and euro automakers have their own engine specific performance requirements which they feel is important. These oils are not expensive nor terribly difficult to acquire.

Asian automakers for the most part don't have oil specifications.

Amsoil probably hasn't realized the expected financial payoff from offering a line with various euro approvals so they're shutting it down. Reducing costs and inventory space.

GM, Ford, Chrysler also have their own approvals.

 

[OVERKILL]

Dexos is a complete racket, to be fair.

Money-wise? Sure, but in terms of tests and parameters, it does have stricter limits than the API.

 

[OVERKILL]

GM, Ford, Chrysler also have their own approvals.

Yes, and aside from Dexos, the Ford and Chrysler approvals are just more stringent versions of the API sequences, quite similar to many of the Euro approvals with ACEA.

 

[4WD]

Wah, wah, wah, over Dexos … Crickets over Dexron …

 

[Foxtrot08]

Wah, wah, wah, over Dexos … Crickets over Dexron …

Because TES 668 spec exists. And is the ultimate royalty scheme.

 

[4WD]

Because TES 668 spec exists. And is the ultimate royalty scheme.

Then have no part of it - your comments had no value

 

[Foxtrot08]

Then have no part of it - your comments had no value

No value?

I think informing people of the royalties they pay for a spec, that an oem sets, has value.

After all, this is exactly what we are talking about in this thread.

And you brought up Dexron. Which, Dexron III and TES 668 are in essence, the same fluid. Just one is a group 3.


And have no part of what? Posting online? Alright bro, have fun in your echo chamber.

 

[4WD]

No value?

I think informing people of the royalties they pay for a spec, that an oem sets, has value.

After all, this is exactly what we are talking to in this thread.

And you brought up Dexron. Which, Dexron III and TES 668 are in essence, the same fluid. Just one is a group 3.


And have no part of what? Posting online? Alright bro, have fun in your echo chamber.

We know all your gripes by now - but as an GM owner I am supposed to trust Scott Fox ahead of GM, bro ?