AMSOIL no longer pursuing Euro OEM approvals

[Four Rings]

Dieselgate doesn’t have anything to do with DPF. It is lack of SCR system in the vehicles. It was all about SCR and NOx gases.

I stand corrected on the systems impacted.

 

[edyvw]

That’s a much longer way of saying what I said.


To a single approval, while the licensing from the oem is not expensive. Getting the add pack developed, the base oils tested, etc. is. As I said…

Add pack is bought from other suppliers. This was just flexibility decision. Let's not forget that Amsoil decided not to pursue an option that still delivers excellent products. Personally, I would never hesitate to use their product in my BMW with N52 engine, but if I had F30 328 with N20/26 engine, I am not so sure.
The reason I mentioned price is that many confused Euro approvals with the way GM does licensing.

 

[svenson]

in europe amsoil people who buy amsoil are no more than a football team.
redline has the most fans in europe from these expensive US engine oils.and from what i heard from them
they are nothing special.they just trying to find the so called ''GOLD'' oil that will make their car fly.and then they are landing on ground.
there are so many oils...

 

[The Lube Guy]

Add pack is bought from other suppliers. This was just flexibility decision. Let's not forget that Amsoil decided not to pursue an option that still delivers excellent products. Personally, I would never hesitate to use their product in my BMW with N52 engine, but if I had F30 328 with N20/26 engine, I am not so sure.
The reason I mentioned price is that many confused Euro approvals are the way GM does licensing.

in europe amsoil people who buy amsoil are no more than a football team.
redline has the most fans in europe from these expensive US engine oils.and from what i heard from them
they are nothing special.they just trying to find the so called ''GOLD'' oil that will make their car fly.and then they are landing on ground.
there are so many oils...

That has a lot to do with how AMSOIL and Red Line Oil distribute their products. They each use different distribution methods.

That being said, Red Line Oil makes fantastic products, no question about it. They have quite the following amongst car enthusiasts on a worldwide scale.

 

[burbguy82]

This was announced in October of 2023, but I didn't see it until now:
View attachment 222556

I am going to assume they studied how much they spent on being licensed vs how much it increased sales (I assume it barely moved the needle) and decided to abandon it in favour of greater flexibility in formulating the products.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but approvals do not mean they do not meets specs, or otherwise would not be approved if tested, correct? Beyond the OE line, Amsoil holds no approvals such as "Dexos" or others. After warranty concerns should not really be a concern if the product will do the job, correct?

Is there more significance in them stopping this line?

 

[Revving2Redline]

This was announced in October of 2023, but I didn't see it until now:
View attachment 222556

I am going to assume they studied how much they spent on being licensed vs how much it increased sales (I assume it barely moved the needle) and decided to abandon it in favour of greater flexibility in formulating the products.

I've said it before, you can really get a much better product to the customer without all the red tape and restrictions. Glad to see Amsoil going this route.

 

[Revving2Redline]

View attachment 222733


That has a lot to do with how AMSOIL and Red Line Oil distribute their products. They each use different distribution methods.

That being said, Red Line Oil makes fantastic products, no question about it. They have quite the following amongst car enthusiasts on a worldwide scale.

I just bought another case of their Redline Cvt fluid with no tax and free shipping over the holiday weekend from autohance. worked out to be cheaper than oem fluid and better than from dealership at Schofield Honda.

 

[TiGeo]

I mean..so? I'd use it no issue. Your average Amsoil customer gives zero cares about this, they are a trusted brand. Same as HPL and Redline. High-end oils for customers that are in-the-know and understand how this all works.

 

[OVERKILL]

I mean..so? I'd use it no issue. Your average Amsoil customer gives zero cares about this, they are a trusted brand. Same as HPL and Redline. High-end oils for customers that are in-the-know and understand how this all works.

Yup, as I noted in the bottom section of the OP, I suspect after looking at the numbers, it wasn't worthwhile to continue.

 

[twX]

You noted "Certain OEM approvals require the use of Group III base oils" and I wondered which ones those were. I have never seen an approval that required something like this. The ones I know have performance requirements not composition. And generally they are minimum requirements, not ones with an upper bound.

Yeah, the only requirements I've seen in oil standards that are specific to oil formulation are phosphorus and sulfur or sulfated ash requirements. The MB standards also have calcium and magnesium limits, but they are set very high. Amsoil doesn't seem to use more than 900 ppm phosphorus in their euro oils, unless they've recently increased it, so I'm not sure what could be holding them back from getting an approval unless there's a performance test they can't meet.

Even if they're not using standard additive packages, they could still get OEM approvals. It would just cost much more for an approval, since the oil would have to go through the entire test program. It's probably all down to cost. Amsoil claiming that they can't get approval because their oils are formulated for better performance is a lot better for marketing though, and it's not entirely untruthful if using non-standard add packs makes approvals cost prohibitive.

 

[OVERKILL]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but approvals do not mean they do not meets specs, or otherwise would not be approved if tested, correct? Beyond the OE line, Amsoil holds no approvals such as "Dexos" or others. After warranty concerns should not really be a concern if the product will do the job, correct?

Is there more significance in them stopping this line?

The idea originally with the Euro approved line was to stem concerns about using a non-approved product under warranty, since many (most?) of the Euro OEM's have it as a requirement in the manual, not a recommendation.

This does of course impose limitations on the approach to formulation however, since AMSOIL doesn't develop their own additive packages, so they have to abide by the blending constraints of the additive packages they purchase (typically from Lubrizol) in order to keep the product compliant and the approvals valid. This means no top-treating to potentially improve performance, limitations on base oil selection...etc.

This is an issue all independent blenders face, since they are not able to develop and approve additive packages in-house, so they count on the efforts of Infineum, Lubrizol, Afton, Oronite...etc to do that work.

For blenders looking to make an approved product, like Valvoline, they then work within the constraints placed on those additive packages by the supplier.

For blenders like HPL, AMSOIL, Redline, Royal Purple, Driven, Torco...etc they use those additive packages to blend the foundational product that they work with, typically using what they regard as the best base oil profile for a given price point, and then top-treating with specific additives to improve performance, measured using various bench tests and lab testing (which may include engine and fleet testing) at places like SWRI (this is the lab AMSOIL uses).

For the latter, the consumer is then counting on the reputation of the blender that their deviations from the "spec" have resulted in a superior product, at a higher price, than one from another brand that is formally approved.

 

[TiGeo]

Yup, as I noted in the bottom section of the OP, I suspect after looking at the numbers, it wasn't worthwhile to continue.

Yep. Folks concerned with this here are happy with their Walmart oil which is of course...fine!

 

[Revving2Redline]

The idea originally with the Euro approved line was to stem concerns about using a non-approved product under warranty, since many (most?) of the Euro OEM's have it as a requirement in the manual, not a recommendation.

This does of course impose limitations on the approach to formulation however, since AMSOIL doesn't develop their own additive packages, so they have to abide by the blending constraints of the additive packages they purchase (typically from Lubrizol) in order to keep the product compliant and the approvals valid. This means no top-treating to potentially improve performance, limitations on base oil selection...etc.

This is an issue all independent blenders face, since they are not able to develop and approve additive packages in-house, so they count on the efforts of Infineum, Lubrizol, Afton, Oronite...etc to do that work.

For blenders looking to make an approved product, like Valvoline, they then work within the constraints placed on those additive packages by the supplier.

For blenders like HPL, AMSOIL, Redline, Royal Purple, Driven, Torco...etc they use those additive packages to blend the foundational product that they work with, typically using what they regard as the best base oil profile for a given price point, and then top-treating with specific additives to improve performance, measured using various bench tests and lab testing (which may include engine and fleet testing) at places like SWRI (this is the lab AMSOIL uses).

For the latter, the consumer is then counting on the reputation of the blender that their deviations from the "spec" have resulted in a superior product, at a higher price, than one from another brand that is formally approved.

Wonderful write up.

 

[Four Rings]

Wonderful write up.

Agree. I learn more here by accident than most elsewhere by design.

 

[svenson]

For the latter, the consumer is then counting on the reputation of the blender that their deviations from the "spec" have resulted in a superior product, at a higher price, than one from another brand that is formally approved.

the most selling non approval engine oil in europe ,especially in UK is the cheapest one....Mannol!! so tell me guys,do you think there are many who care about oil just like we do? nope..most people are seeking for a cheap oil and this oil is definitely a non approved oil. an engine oil is for them a usual part that dont want to spend too much money on it. a few want to by that superior high priced oil.

 

[mr_boring]

This is the thread I needed. Thank you @OVERKILL for posting it. Not because I care about the gist of the information delivered, but because it brought out the "look at me look at me!" junkies in full force.

 

[MolaKule]

...To a single approval, while the licensing from the oem is not expensive. Getting the add pack developed, the base oils tested, etc. is. As I said…

The development of additive packages is absolutely expensive. I once worked with a PhD chemist at XYZ additive supplier on behalf of a customer to do testing for a specialized hydraulic fluid. My customer had to pay $100k up front just for starters in order to have the formulation certified for various end-user requirements. Additional costs arose of course as testing and tweaking proceeded.

We tested the formula on various equipment, peered over various charts of friction tests, examined wear on pump gears, clutches, controls, pistons, seals, particle counts, FFTIR and other analysis. One test showed a weakness in oxidation requirements so we tweaked the formula with a different dual anti-oxidant, retested, and then settled on the final additive mix.

Before it was over, the bill was close to $200,000. That was back in 2005.

I had heard (through the grapevine) that the Dexron VI formula development, with tweaking and testing cost GM over $3 million. I can't vouch for that figure but it sounded about right.

 

[burbguy82]

For the latter, the consumer is then counting on the reputation of the blender that their deviations from the "spec" have resulted in a superior product, at a higher price, than one from another brand that is formally approved.

So the answer is yes to my former question........?

 

[OVERKILL]

So the answer is yes to my former question........?

Yeah, no concern about after warranty.

 

[kschachn]

The idea originally with the Euro approved line was to stem concerns about using a non-approved product under warranty, since many (most?) of the Euro OEM's have it as a requirement in the manual, not a recommendation.

This does of course impose limitations on the approach to formulation however, since AMSOIL doesn't develop their own additive packages, so they have to abide by the blending constraints of the additive packages they purchase (typically from Lubrizol) in order to keep the product compliant and the approvals valid. This means no top-treating to potentially improve performance, limitations on base oil selection...etc.

This is an issue all independent blenders face, since they are not able to develop and approve additive packages in-house, so they count on the efforts of Infineum, Lubrizol, Afton, Oronite...etc to do that work.

For blenders looking to make an approved product, like Valvoline, they then work within the constraints placed on those additive packages by the supplier.

For blenders like HPL, AMSOIL, Redline, Royal Purple, Driven, Torco...etc they use those additive packages to blend the foundational product that they work with, typically using what they regard as the best base oil profile for a given price point, and then top-treating with specific additives to improve performance, measured using various bench tests and lab testing (which may include engine and fleet testing) at places like SWRI (this is the lab AMSOIL uses).

For the latter, the consumer is then counting on the reputation of the blender that their deviations from the "spec" have resulted in a superior product, at a higher price, than one from another brand that is formally approved.

Even if you do have a great concern about warranty, the Amsoil oil itself has a warranty.