AMSOIL no longer pursuing Euro OEM approvals

[edyvw]

Meets / exceeds requirements strikes again.

At the end of the day, it’s too expensive to get every base oil and every additive pack approved for every possible formulation.

So I don’t blame amsoil. Approvals are expensive. When you know it’s going to meet XYZ specs, why spend a few hundred thousand dollars doing the engine testing and everything else required?

Approvals are not expensive. What is expensive is R&D, logistics. Getting approval from manufacturer after that is smallest item on cost list. When I worked on these stuff, VW charged 3,200 euros for VW504.00/507.00. That was 2005. So, maybe now 5,000 euros.

 

[buster]

Definitely a lot of R&D behind the scenes.

https://www.stle.org/files/TLTArchives/2020/05_May/Best_Practices.aspx

 

[KevinMalone]

Makes sense from Amsoil's perspective. Those that drink the Amsoil Kool Aid probably don't care about OEM approvals.

 

[kschachn]

Disqualify other manufacturers for not having approvals but AMSOIL gets a pass. Right.

In no way a statement about AMSOIL's quality, we know it's top notch, more so about some posts here.

I guess it's all about trusting your favorite lube company. I go through this mental gymnastics with RP.

The problem with some other manufacturers is that they do not make it clear when they have or do not have approvals. I have no problem with making a value judgement but the manufacturer must make the situation clear. Do not try and obfuscate on your PDS.

Even worse is when they list compatibility with incompatible approvals. One blender is notorious for this and this shows a lack of concern which one can only extrapolate to their products.

 

[kschachn]

I don't understand the question, so I'd rather ask, before I give you the wrong answer.

You noted "Certain OEM approvals require the use of Group III base oils" and I wondered which ones those were. I have never seen an approval that required something like this. The ones I know have performance requirements not composition. And generally they are minimum requirements, not ones with an upper bound.

 

[chris719]

You noted "Certain OEM approvals require the use of Group III base oils" and I wondered which ones those were. I have never seen an approval that required something like this. The ones I know have performance requirements not composition. And generally they are minimum requirements, not ones with an upper bound.

I won’t speak for him, but I’ve heard on the German forums that certain Infineum additive packages only retain their approvals when blended with base oils on a pre-approved list.

 

[edyvw]

You noted "Certain OEM approvals require the use of Group III base oils" and I wondered which ones those were. I have never seen an approval that required something like this. The ones I know have performance requirements not composition. And generally they are minimum requirements, not ones with an upper bound.

BMW played fast and loose with Group III requirements in 2018. However, I think that went away on 2022 update as many PAO based oils got approvals again (Castrol Edge 0W30).

 

[MolaKule]

I won’t speak for him, but I’ve heard on the German forums that certain Infineum additive packages only retain their approvals when blended with base oils on a pre-approved list.

When a blender is given a formulation recipe, many additive manufacturers will stipulate the base oil and the base oil supplier in order to meet the certifications and approvals their formulae were tested against. Others may simply state the base oil group or groups that qualify with no base oil manf. identified.

 

[Four Rings]

Yes, and same FIAT and VW are lobbying for deadline to be scrapped and for market to decide.

The market deciding should have been their position all along. Yet, they (and others) lobbied governments to legislate ICE out of existance so they’d not have to deal with the market deciding and the risks and costs that go with serving both markets.

 

[edyvw]

The market deciding should have been their position all along. Yet, they (and others) lobbied governments to legislate ICE out of existance so they’d not have to deal with the market deciding and the risks and costs that go with serving both markets.

It is bit more complicated in EU than that. In EU there was genuine movement to ban ICE after VW dieselgate. No company, no lobbyist did more for EV's than VW.

 

[bbhero]

View attachment 222632

This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Genuinely made me laugh…..

A lot ….

Post of the Year to this point…

 

[Foxtrot08]

Approvals are not expensive. What is expensive is R&D, logistics. Getting approval from manufacturer after that is smallest item on cost list. When I worked on these stuff, VW charged 3,200 euros for VW504.00/507.00. That was 2005. So, maybe now 5,000 euros.

That’s a much longer way of saying what I said.


To a single approval, while the licensing from the oem is not expensive. Getting the add pack developed, the base oils tested, etc. is. As I said…

 

[Jetronic]

Glad to read your post.

However as of today, FIAT is still committed to 2030, Audi to 2033 and VW 2035.

And Belgium is talking about 2029 and to include semi's in the ICE ban, to meet the CO2 reduction goals set... I also don't think 2035 is feasible, let alone 2029 but the push is becoming a shove...

 

[The Lube Guy]

Meets / exceeds requirements strikes again.

At the end of the day, it’s too expensive to get every base oil and every additive pack approved for every possible formulation.

So I don’t blame amsoil. Approvals are expensive. When you know it’s going to meet XYZ specs, why spend a few hundred thousand dollars doing the engine testing and everything else required?

Getting the add pack developed, the base oils tested, etc. is. As I said…

Please see @MolaKule's post #48 above.

AMSOIL is a blender. They don't need to do anything else besides buying the materials and blending them. They can choose to slightly tweak the recipes to enhance certain aspects of their blends. Before David Granquist retired from Red Line Oil, I spoke to him on several occasions, and he told me that's how Red Line does it. Red Line Oil never submits any of their motor oils for approvals. They use additive packages that are designed to blend lubricants that then become candidates for approvals. The way he worded it in one of our email exchanges: A few of the HP Motor Oils are being reformulated specifically to address LSPI concerns, products recommended in late model direct injection, forced induction engines. These HP oils are not submitted and approved, they use packages that are.

AMSOIL is going a similar route now. They no longer wish to be bound by strict OEM requirements, especially when those requirements stand in the way of blending a higher quality motor oil.

 

[Foxtrot08]

Please see @MolaKule's post #48 above.

AMSOIL is a blender. They don't need to do anything else besides buying the materials and blending them. They can choose to slightly tweak the recipes to enhance certain aspects of their blends. Before David Granquist retired from Red Line Oil, I spoke to him on several occasions, and he told me that's how Red Line does it. Red Line Oil never submits any of their motor oils for approvals. They use additive packages that are designed to blend lubricants that then become candidates for approvals. The way he worded it in one of our email exchanges: A few of the HP Motor Oils are being reformulated specifically to address LSPI concerns, products recommended in late model direct injection, forced induction engines. These HP oils are not submitted and approved, they use packages that are.

AMSOIL is going a similar route now. They no longer wish to be bound by strict OEM requirements, especially when those requirements stand in the way of blending a higher quality motor oil.

Out of curiosity… why are you telling me this?

I know exactly how this works because this is what I do for a living…

 

[Zee09]

Out of curiosity… why are you telling me this?

I know exactly how this works because this is... what I do for a living.

That's how the internet works.
Why is this a shock?

 

[Foxtrot08]

That's how the internet works.
Why is this a shock?

I know, right?

Not even worth the time replying to threads much anymore. People already have answers planned out before they even understand a post.

Weird, my name is on a ton of API, Dexos and other approvals… yet, I have no clue how these systems work… or who amsoil is… or redline…

Maybe I’ll text the director of redline for P66 today.

 

[Four Rings]

It is bit more complicated in EU than that. In EU there was genuine movement to ban ICE after VW dieselgate. No company, no lobbyist did more for EV's than VW.

We agree that VW gave the opening, to be sure. Yet the political goal has always been to ban ICE and reduce privately owned transportation.

To that end “Diesel-gate” was a vehicle, overblown beyond reasonable proportion, and used as propaganda by EU Environmental and Political extremists to further their agenda.

IMHO Diesel-gate was simply a smartly deployed ECU program that avoided particulate filter regeneration cycles when the car was being emissions tested on a chassis dyno. Dr. Piech got his engineers to find solutions outside of conventional thinking; yet it was portrayed as some kind of dodge rather than a necessary engineering solution to maintaining the car’s emissions system and emissions “compliance” when tested. It also avoided needing DEF to regenerate/clean parts the emissions controls systems, simplifying car ownership and maintenance over competing solutions.

IMHO Diesel-gate should have highlighted for the public the technological limits of, and the associated costs needed to comply with, environmental mandates. Instead it became about political power and a vehicle to advance a retrograde agenda.

 

[edyvw]

We agree that VW gave the opening, to be sure. Yet the political goal has always been to ban ICE and reduce privately owned transportation.

To that end “Diesel-gate” was a vehicle, overblown beyond reasonable proportion, and used as propaganda by EU Environmental and Political extremists to further their agenda.

IMHO Diesel-gate was simply a smartly deployed ECU program that avoided particulate filter regeneration cycles when the car was being emissions tested on a chassis dyno. Dr. Piech got his engineers to find solutions outside of conventional thinking; yet it was portrayed as some kind of dodge rather than a necessary engineering solution to maintaining the car’s emissions system and emissions “compliance” when tested. It also avoided needing DEF to regenerate/clean parts the emissions controls systems, simplifying car ownership and maintenance over competing solutions.

IMHO Diesel-gate should have highlighted for the public the technological limits of, and the associated costs needed to comply with, environmental mandates. Instead it became about political power and a vehicle to advance a retrograde agenda.

Dieselgate doesn’t have anything to do with DPF. It is lack of SCR system in the vehicles. It was all about SCR and NOx gases.

 

[The Lube Guy]

Out of curiosity… why are you telling me this?

I know exactly how this works because this is... what I do for a living.

I understand that you are well-versed in this field and that my explanation might seem unnecessary. However, I wanted to provide some clarity regarding AMSOIL's approach, especially for those who may not be as familiar with the intricacies involved.

Regarding your statement:

So I don’t blame AMSOIL. Approvals are expensive. When you know it’s going to meet XYZ specs, why spend a few hundred thousand dollars doing the engine testing and everything else required?

It’s important to note that AMSOIL chose to forego European OEM approvals to have greater flexibility in how they formulate their motor oils for European engines. AMSOIL has publicly stated that this decision allows them more freedom in their blending processes. If their goal was solely to obtain European OEM approvals, they could have adhered strictly to the specified blending recipes and submitted their lubricants for approval. Their decision appears to be driven by a desire for increased competitiveness and flexibility, though the specifics are known only to them.

Furthermore:

Weird, my name is on a ton of API, Dexos, and other approvals… yet, I have no clue how these systems work… or who AMSOIL is… or Redline…

Maybe I’ll text the director of Redline for P66 today.

There is no need to emphasize your credentials or connections. I am aware of your expertise and the company you lead, and I have great respect for your knowledge. My intention was not to challenge or undermine your experience but to clarify AMSOIL’s rationale for those who might not be aware. Some individuals here may have misconceptions about AMSOIL’s decisions, and I hoped to address those misunderstandings. My comments were not directed personally at you, and I apologize if they seemed that way.