Amsoil Lower Engine temps.

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
the topic of oil and engine temperature is a complex one
In support of the argument that the temperature gauge is unlikely to "tell the story" it is worth considering the following.

Case1 - I operate a MY02 Subaru Outback as my "Company Car"

It has covered 90kkms and the coolant temperature gauge has never
varied at operating temperature - ever

It has had four types of oil in it;
a) factory fill ( about 2kkms )
b) M1 0w-40
c) M1 10w-30
d) D1 5w-40 ( 24kkms )
( oils b, c, d were changed at around 12kkm intervals )

It has operated in temperatures from -6C to 45C

Last week I covered 1200 kms in one non stop trip in an ambient ranging from 5C to 36C in our tropical spring. There was a very strong following wind for about 600 kms - the gauge never varied.
Speeds were around 160km/h for some hours ( don't tell Mr Plod!! ).

This car like most new Asian and Euro cars has a "sanitised" temp
gauge - one that constantly sits at normal on a small band of say 3C to 5C
- a factor of the "sweet position" of the sensor on the engine
and the way the gauge is designed to operate.
They are designed as a "package" to indicate when something is wrong - outside a given band and to quickly indicate when an over-temp occurs!

Usually, once the coolant is at the thermostat's "crack" point the gauge will move down a little and then remain there. Unless of course other operational aspects
cause the engine to gain temperature.
It will NOT get cooler unless the engine stops of course - the thermostat sees to that

This means then the gauge is always displaying the best result from the operation of the engine's thermostat, the device that
regulates engine temperature, and displaying a sanitised reading
The can be no influence of a "parasitic" temperature change from another oil shown here

Case 2 - Until recently I owned a MBG with a factory fitted non thermostatically controlled oil cooler fitted in the main oil gallery. The cooler was aluminium, the hoses over a metre long and it was mounted in the full air flow in front of the radiator
On a -5C day the "non sanitised" gauge would reach a little above thermostat crack
point ( 78C ) then go down a little and stay there. The oil cooler lines would be about 40C in and about 30C out. No real effect of the extra cold oil was shown on the gauge

On a 40C day the engine would reach slightly above normal and the oil cooler lines
would be near 90C
Again, no real effect on the gauge reading was noted due to the oil's temperature

Case 3 - My Porsche V8 ( alloy block and heads ) has a large capacity and very complex cooling system. The thermostat which is mounted on the bottom hose entry to the water pump opens at 83C and is fully open at 98C. The radiator is a "heat sink" - common on some German cars. Part of the cooling system is a large capacity oil pan and a thermostatically controlled oil/coolant heat exchanger embedded in the radiator. The oil system thermostat opens at 87C and is fully open at 95C.
The complete system is so complex that in nearly 40 readings taken over some months and involving nine key points I could not have detected a meaningful variance in oil temperature due to "parasitic" friction reduction or heat dissipation via the oil

The non sanitised gauge in this car is constantly moving due to the nature of the sensors and coolant flow path. A good reason why the gauges are now sanitised perhaps?

To get an accurate temperature "picture" on any vehicle's engine a lot of careful monitoring and data acquisition and analysis must take place

Regards

 

[Dr. T]

Guys, I think the bottom line with this thread is that a BETTER lubricant can and will post lower coefficient of friction numbers and hence may provide 'cooler' temps. than an oil with a higher coefficient of friction...(Amsoil or otherwise). (sorry, I just realized that I sound like the Q.S. commercial)

 

[buster]

Recently my friend put Amsoil0w-30 in his Tahoe and his engine temps are lower in this vehicle as well. The Vette definitely droped temps.

Anyone ever see RL do this?

 

[edwardh1]

seems the engine thermostat controls the engine temp, not the oil brand

 

[Patman]

quote:

---

Originally posted by edwardh1:
seems the engine thermostat controls the engine temp, not the oil brand

---

The thermostat only controls the minimum operating temperature though.

 

[TooSlick]

The Series 2000, 0w-30 generated the lowest oil temps I've ever seen in my Audi 100. That includes all the other Amsoil formulations. I've run everything from the Amsoil 0w-30 to their 20w-50 racing oil in this 2.3L motor over the past 12 years....

Very effective friction modifiers and it transfers heat very well.

Ted

 

[buster]

quote:

---

Letter regarding heat and AMSOIL
This is a copy of a letter from, "Balcones European Motors", attesting to the engine operating
temperature reduction that AMSOIL can provide.

(Re-printed with permission from the Head Manager, Mr. Patrick Jacks).
Balcones European Motors Mercedes*BMW*Porsche*Ferrari*Jaguar*Volvo*Saab Sales,
Service, Restoration, and Performance Mods. 12108-D Roxie Drive, Austin, Texas 78729 (512)335-6911 May 1, 1992


Dear David:

As you know our business is dedicated to servicing, repairing and performance modifications of most European automobiles. But most of all, we pay special attention to Porsche 911's.

Texas is very hard on the 911, (oil/air cooled), engine because of the extreme summer temperatures reached here. Many of these cars must have system modifications to bring temperatures down from damaging temperatures with normal petroleum oils.

I began using AMSOIL 3 years ago in my own 911 while working with racing Ferrari's. I was having problems keeping the oil temperatures down when competing in S.C.C.A. events even with two extra remote oil coolers, and was told to try AMSOIL 20W-50 Synthetic Racing Oil. Immediate improvements were discovered. Overall oil temperature dropped around twenty degrees with AMSOIL 20W-50 Synthetic Racing Oil, *even over Mobil 1 synthetic*.

Recently one of our 911 customers encountered the most dramatic temperature reductions we have seen to date. He was experiencing temperatures over 280 degrees during spirited runs on the street. While race prepping his '73 last month for a Porsche Club event held at Texas World Speedway, we converted his engine oil to AMSOIL to help keep the oil temp down. We were expecting a 20 degree drop in temperature, but were amazed when the oil temp never rose above 245 degrees after 75 laps on the 1.9 mile road course! Needless to say 35 degrees made a believer out of our customer.

We know what cooler operating temperatures do for the life of expensive high revving, high
performance engines and AMSOIL works better than anything we have seen to date. We recommend AMSOIL products to all of our performance customers.

We really like what AMSOIL does for us and our customers. After all, keeping our customers satisfied is what it's all about.

Sincerely,
Balcones European Motors
David B. Moore

---

Found this on the net.

[ January 18, 2004, 07:13 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,

AIR COOLED PORSCHE 911 ENGINES

Early model ( 1960s) Porsche 911 series engines did not have an external oil cooler and this led to many cooling problems! These engines of course have a dry sump!
Later 911 series engines ( early 1970s ) had an external oil cooler option and this became a serious part of cooling the engine
In the early 1970's an external oil cooler was a standard fitment - firstly on the 911"S" - and these were thermostatically controlled

The engine's oil plays a very serious role in these dry sump air cooled engines which are of course most dependent on the ambient air temp and air flow as the prime part of the overall cooling package

THIS IS NOT EXACTLY LIKE ON A COOLANT COOLED ENGINE WHICH DEPENDS PRIMARILY ON THE COOLANT THERMOSTAT TO REGULATE THE OPERATING TEMPERATURE!

Some 911's engines had electric fans installed for the oil cooler when air flow was poor and ambient temperatures very high. Placement of the cooler has an overall effect on heat dispersion

Oil temperature gauges were fitted to these cars and were a source of much confusion for all and sundry. And still are!

It is normal for a 911's oil temperature to be in the 180F-240F range with 275F being near the top end!
Many will run around 240F as a normal position without a worry

It is logical then that a reduction/increase in oil temperature can be detected in these engines according to an oil's "contruction" when used in similar situations
The same comments may apply to oil viscosity, air flow, number, type and placement of the oil cooler(s) and other variables as well of course!

Regards

[ January 18, 2004, 08:57 PM: Message edited by: Doug Hillary ]

 

[bearclaw]

I had a similar experience with my daughter's recent purchase, a '94 Accord. I had driven it around a couple days and had a pretty good idea where the temp needle was resting - a little low, which I later found out was due to a stuck thermostat, which basically meant the engine temp was finding it's own level. I changed it to ASL and drove it around, and the needle was definitely riding lower, no matter how long I drove. I have no idea what oil was in it when we bought it, only that it looked fairly clean. Far from a scientific test, but I attributed this to the oil.

[ January 18, 2004, 09:18 PM: Message edited by: bearclaw ]

 

[simpleguy_68]

My Chevy S10 4.3L V6 has nearly 103K miles on it and this is my story. Using dino oils, the temp gauge would climb to an indicated 210F, then the thermostat would open and the temp would fall back to what appears to be 185F, where it would stabilize, unless I got into stop-n-go traffic or left the truck idling for long periods of time, where it my climb to just below 210F.

At 92K miles, I flushed the engine and ran Supertech 10w-30 Synthetic through it for 5k miles. At 97K, I changed the oil again and ran Havoline 10w-30 Synthetic through it for another 5k miles. At 102K, it was switched to Amsoil 10w-30. I did this to make sure that I got all the old dino oil sludge out before switching to Amsoil.

Immediately after switching to the synthetics, my temp gauge still rises to 210F, then the thermostat opens and the temp gauge falls a full TWO TICKMARKS below the "old" setting. My guess is that this new setting is equivalent to 170-175F. This is not a Amsoil vs. all other oils issue, but rather synthetic vs. dino, as all the synthetics saw a lower temperature than the old dino oil.

That said, it seems as if the truck is running a half-tick lower with Amsoil, but that could be just my imagination and wishful thinking. I'm waiting for summer to see just how well it performs in this Texas heat.

 

[heyjay]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug Hillary:
Hi,
the topic of oil and engine temperature is a complex one
In support of the argument that the temperature gauge is unlikely to "tell the story" it is worth considering the following.

Case1 - I operate a MY02 Subaru Outback as my "Company Car"

It has covered 90kkms and the coolant temperature gauge has never
varied at operating temperature - ever

It has had four types of oil in it;
a) factory fill ( about 2kkms )
b) M1 0w-40
c) M1 10w-30
d) D1 5w-40 ( 24kkms )
( oils b, c, d were changed at around 12kkm intervals )

It has operated in temperatures from -6C to 45C

Last week I covered 1200 kms in one non stop trip in an ambient ranging from 5C to 36C in our tropical spring. There was a very strong following wind for about 600 kms - the gauge never varied.
Speeds were around 160km/h for some hours ( don't tell Mr Plod!! ).

This car like most new Asian and Euro cars has a "sanitised" temp
gauge - one that constantly sits at normal on a small band of say 3C to 5C
- a factor of the "sweet position" of the sensor on the engine
and the way the gauge is designed to operate.
They are designed as a "package" to indicate when something is wrong - outside a given band and to quickly indicate when an over-temp occurs!

Usually, once the coolant is at the thermostat's "crack" point the gauge will move down a little and then remain there. Unless of course other operational aspects
cause the engine to gain temperature.
It will NOT get cooler unless the engine stops of course - the thermostat sees to that

This means then the gauge is always displaying the best result from the operation of the engine's thermostat, the device that
regulates engine temperature, and displaying a sanitised reading
The can be no influence of a "parasitic" temperature change from another oil shown here

Case 2 - Until recently I owned a MBG with a factory fitted non thermostatically controlled oil cooler fitted in the main oil gallery. The cooler was aluminium, the hoses over a metre long and it was mounted in the full air flow in front of the radiator
On a -5C day the "non sanitised" gauge would reach a little above thermostat crack
point ( 78C ) then go down a little and stay there. The oil cooler lines would be about 40C in and about 30C out. No real effect of the extra cold oil was shown on the gauge

On a 40C day the engine would reach slightly above normal and the oil cooler lines
would be near 90C
Again, no real effect on the gauge reading was noted due to the oil's temperature

Case 3 - My Porsche V8 ( alloy block and heads ) has a large capacity and very complex cooling system. The thermostat which is mounted on the bottom hose entry to the water pump opens at 83C and is fully open at 98C. The radiator is a "heat sink" - common on some German cars. Part of the cooling system is a large capacity oil pan and a thermostatically controlled oil/coolant heat exchanger embedded in the radiator. The oil system thermostat opens at 87C and is fully open at 95C.
The complete system is so complex that in nearly 40 readings taken over some months and involving nine key points I could not have detected a meaningful variance in oil temperature due to "parasitic" friction reduction or heat dissipation via the oil

The non sanitised gauge in this car is constantly moving due to the nature of the sensors and coolant flow path. A good reason why the gauges are now sanitised perhaps?

To get an accurate temperature "picture" on any vehicle's engine a lot of careful monitoring and data acquisition and analysis must take place

Regards

---

Doug:

Excellent point regarding "true" temp. It appears the vast majority of the driving public has been cultured to believe that oil pressure, oil temp, and coolant temp should ALWAYS be rock-steady at a certain band. Many temp displays are no better than Idiot Lamps as by the time they indicate overheating, you're glowing red hot.

I purchased new a 1984 Ford F-150 with 302 V8 and C6 auto. Within a year the factory tach quit, the temp gauge quit, etc. Rather than replace the expensive instrument cluster off warranty, I simply hooked up Stewart gauges for tach, oil pressure, and water temp.

The oil pressure and water temp are mechanical gauges. As expected, there is a lot of variation in oil pressure, and the needle is bouncy +- 10 PSI at any RPM. I see the same effect on my commercial equipment and consider this normal.

I don't like 195 F thermostats as they only satisfy emissions, and my Canadian truck is non-emission. I put in a 160 F thermostat in the Ford, and have used them ever since. With the Stewart mechanical gauge, the sensor bulb in the top of the thermo housing always reads what the thermo is rated for once at operating temp.

It also shows "hot soak." In very hot +35 C summer, I'll shut the motor off, then come back 15 minutes later. The temp gauge will have climbed to 190 F. Stands to reason, as when you shut off the motor the water pump also shuts off, so the hot engine parts have to give up their heat by convection only.

In 1985 I ripped out the disgusting Ford iron intake manifold and two barrel Motorcraft, substituting an Edelbrock 289 manifold with Holley 390 CFM four barrel. WAY more power, same fuel economy.

The Edelbrock intake has many threaded ports, dry and wet. I put a mechanical Stewart gauge on the wet port at the rear of the block. In the hotest driving, it barely creeps above 150 F.

I knew this is why I should use a winter front to block off the grille in temps colder than 0 F: even with a 195 thermo, the rear of the block never went above the bottom peg. With a winter front, the rear of the block will reach 120 F in winter.

With my commercial Cummins equipment, I noticed a fairly consistent oil temp drop (At the sump where the sensor bulb is) from 260 F to 210 F when I switched the motors from factory fill 15W-40 to Delvac 1 5W-40.

You will have to install a mechanical temp bulb in your oil pan before making an objective analysis on what effect an oil has on oil sump temp.

As Doug also mentioned, you will need proper instrumentation to record "true" temp, not Idiot Gauge temp. Maybe you can find k-junction thermocouples cheaply and rig up sensing points.

Jerry

 

[SSDude]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dr. T:
Guys, I think the bottom line with this thread is that a BETTER lubricant can and will post lower coefficient of friction numbers and hence may provide 'cooler' temps. than an oil with a higher coefficient of friction...(Amsoil or otherwise). (sorry, I just realized that I sound like the Q.S. commercial)

---

Didn't GM eliminate oil coolers in Corvettes when they started putting Mobile 1 in them. Therefore, wouldn't it be logical that a better flowing oil especially a synthetic 0w oil would result in cooler engine temperatures. Similar results are probably obtainable from GC or any other 0w oil.

[ January 20, 2004, 01:41 PM: Message edited by: SSDude ]

 

[MolaKule]

OK guys, some stuff I want to throw out about engines and Thermodynamics:

Fact: We will never have a lubricating fluid in the short-term that totally reduces friction to zero, nor will the fluid have zero internal friction.

Now, the thermostat controls coolant temperature which is about 20 C cooler than the oil; I.E; the oil will always be 20 C higher (or more) in temp after the engine attains working temperature.

In the Macro world, the coolant cools the engine. In the microworld, the oil cools the surfaces of sliding and rotating parts and transfers this heat to the coolant and then is transferred to the radiator or heat exchanger.

Statement: It is not the coolant temperature that will show a synthetic's advantages, but the Rate of temperature rise to operating temperature, since for all practical purposes, after warmup, the temp is somewhat constant, with low dependance on external or ambient temperatures. I.E., when comparing dino's and full synthetics, it is how fast the temperature rises (a thermal RATE problem) that should show any advantages.

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
Molakule - that is exactly what I have been saying in a practical sense

The only exception is in certain air cooled engines where the engine's "secondary coolant" is the engine's oil and where that oil is operating beyond the thermostat's "crack" point

a) Then, a drop in the oil's temp due to oil type, viscosity and etc MAY be able to be measured accurately

But as stated earlier other variables need to be considered here too

In early air cooled VWs a ducted air flow mounted oil cooler was used. In these engines and because of this only mono grade oils ( 20w-20 winter and 30 summer )were permitted
The use of multigrade oils in these engines resulted in disputed warranty claims in various countries - and sludging was but one problem

When using a correctly mounted oil temperature gauge on a coolant cooled engine you MAY be able to detect variances as in a) above

I have tracked the coolant, engine, oil and ATF temperatures in my Porsche 320hp V8 for almost 12 months

During this time;
b) a change from Shell Helix Ultra 15w-50 synthetic oil to Mobil Delvac 1 5w-40 produced NO measurable temperature variance to either the engines's core temperature or to the oil temperature ( thermostat controlled oil cooler )
Note the change did produce a very noticable FEEL in the engine's "spinnability" and power output
c) Temperature extremes were from -4C to 40C+
d) Use includes long high speed runs ( 110 mp/h plus )and normal urban/rural use
e) Avge core engine temp = 88C
f) Max core engine temp = 94C
g) Min core engine temp = 85C
h) Avge engine oil cooler in temp = 90C
i) Avge ATF cooler in temp = 60C
j) Max ATF cooler in temp = 78C
k) Min ATF cooler in temp = 43C
l) Avge var. at ATF cooler in/out = 11C

Molakule - your generalisation of a 20C variance between oil and coolant temperatures fits within the range of my observations on a number of different vehicles - including my heavy trucks - and over many years

Regards

[ January 20, 2004, 05:59 PM: Message edited by: Doug Hillary ]

 

[Tim C]

"My friend recently put Amsoil 0w-30 S2k into his 2003 Vette. He has noticed that his engine temps are now 20 degrees cooler and his oil pressure is more stable. He previously had factory fill Mobil 1 5w-30"

I understand that if the thermostat in your vehicle is a 195 and your car is running at 195 and not going over that then no oil will lower your operating temps. Now on the other hand if your car is running over the thermostat setting, and if the new oil reduces friction and/or does a better job transfering heat then it certainly could lower your collant temperature. As for the 2003 Corvette. The new Corvette does have an inherent cooling problem. GM is aware that the Corvette can run hotter than the thermostat by around 10-20 degrees because of restricted airflow to the radiator as a result of the body configuration on the front end. My friend was bothered by the higher than expected operating temps of his 2003 vette here in Phoenix in the summer time especially. He was told by the Chevy dealer that is normal for the new Corvette and the above 200 degree temp is not a problem. Based on this I would certainly advaocate any oil that would assist the hot running Corvette keep it's cool.

Tim C

 

[Patman]

A lot of Corvette owners have reported seeing their oil temps get as high as 300 degrees when they are road racing in hot weather, so more than anything they need an oil cooler, a change in brands of oil isn't quite enough. Imagine how thin an oil will be at 300 degrees! (especially one which is only 10cst at 100c)