Yes, and people want to buy GM after bailing them out, only to have GM shove this $#!& down their throats. They should have to pay for the oil out of their own pockets (GM).
AMSOIL AND A 2014 CHEVY SILVERADO
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OVERKILL
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Lots of manufacturers use specifications and approvals to ensure proper lubricant performance in their engines. GM is the only one I know of that charges royalties to do so. I am not a fan of their approach.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Lots of manufacturers use specifications and approvals to ensure proper lubricant performance in their engines. GM is the only one I know of that charges royalties to do so. I am not a fan of their approach.
How much is it?
Lots of manufacturers use specifications and approvals to ensure proper lubricant performance in their engines. GM is the only one I know of that charges royalties to do so. I am not a fan of their approach.
How much is it?
Oil producers that wish to display the dexos™ logo, get to pay GM a fee of $1000.00 per product licence. An additional charge of $0.36 per gallon also applies.
Originally Posted By: zpinch
You know if dexos was a product, and required for a vehicle, they would have to provide it free of charge. I would never buy a GM vehicle because of this (how long will it be before other OEM's issue their own license?). Oil producers that wish to display the dexos™ logo, get to pay GM a fee of $1000.00 per product licence. An additional charge of $0.36 per gallon also applies. This is not a bad pay-day for the automaker. I wonder how long it will take for other manufacturers to catch on and issue their own license? Customers will inevitably pay the extra cost.
Original (2010) General Motors statement
Don’t be fooled by oils with claims on the back label such as "meets," "complies with" or "is approved for use with the dexos™ specification. Look alikes or unlicensed products that don’t display the dexos™ icon and trademark, on the front label simply don’t comply with the high performance and quality standards of dexos™.
Using engine oil other than authentic dexos™ licensed products could result in damage that is not covered under warranty.
Nothing but a GM oil shakedown.
GM also says API SN can be used. They want dexos because it does have a higher standard than API and requires a extra label. Anyone using the dexos label without authorization is committing fraud.
I like dexos, it makes buying oil for the average know little consumer a whole lot easier ad being licensed does provide some assurance of minimum quality.
Some of you guys crack me up. No one complains about the transmission licensed fluid, in fact once dex III was no longer licensed some were worried that some "meets or exceeds" might not be up to snuff now no licensing of the product is needed.
What about API SN does Amsoil even have that license/approval? Come on, that alone would cover a lot of potential problems.
No, they do not. As far as i can tell only 1 oil has any real approvals.
Instead of saying Amsoil should get these licenses and approvals like most others who are producing engine oil you go on an anti GM rant. You have completely lost the plot here.
This meets or exceeds bovine excrement is close to fraud IMHO. The label sure looks like a let spec label but in reality it is close to fraudulent as it gets. Amsoils legal team must have worked overtime wording that so carefully that they don't get sued.
It should say. We only recommend it for all the specs listed but we didn't bother to license them. We are a good company, trust us to do the right thing if something goes afoul with your engine warranty.
Would you buy Travs engine oil with a label that reads.
It meets this spec and that spec, trust me i know it does but i cant be bothered to license any of it. This is why i can sell at such low prices.
You would tell me to go $hit in my hat but when Amsoil does it AND charges a premium you worship it
They sell a premium product at a premium price, no one disputes the quality of the product but there is no reason other than extra profit on their part for not getting licenses/approvals.
Exactly what you accuse GM of doing. I for one don't mind paying an extra .10-.25 a qt for quality assurance. Trust is good, certification is better.
Hey out of warranty no problem whatsoever. Amsoil is a good company with premium products and IMO trustworthy but in todays world where every i is dotted and every t crossed when it comes to warranty you just cant take that sort of a risk and you shouldn't have to.
JMHO and
You know if dexos was a product, and required for a vehicle, they would have to provide it free of charge. I would never buy a GM vehicle because of this (how long will it be before other OEM's issue their own license?). Oil producers that wish to display the dexos™ logo, get to pay GM a fee of $1000.00 per product licence. An additional charge of $0.36 per gallon also applies. This is not a bad pay-day for the automaker. I wonder how long it will take for other manufacturers to catch on and issue their own license? Customers will inevitably pay the extra cost.
Original (2010) General Motors statement
Don’t be fooled by oils with claims on the back label such as "meets," "complies with" or "is approved for use with the dexos™ specification. Look alikes or unlicensed products that don’t display the dexos™ icon and trademark, on the front label simply don’t comply with the high performance and quality standards of dexos™.
Using engine oil other than authentic dexos™ licensed products could result in damage that is not covered under warranty.
Nothing but a GM oil shakedown.
GM also says API SN can be used. They want dexos because it does have a higher standard than API and requires a extra label. Anyone using the dexos label without authorization is committing fraud.
I like dexos, it makes buying oil for the average know little consumer a whole lot easier ad being licensed does provide some assurance of minimum quality.
Some of you guys crack me up. No one complains about the transmission licensed fluid, in fact once dex III was no longer licensed some were worried that some "meets or exceeds" might not be up to snuff now no licensing of the product is needed.
What about API SN does Amsoil even have that license/approval? Come on, that alone would cover a lot of potential problems.
No, they do not. As far as i can tell only 1 oil has any real approvals.
Instead of saying Amsoil should get these licenses and approvals like most others who are producing engine oil you go on an anti GM rant. You have completely lost the plot here.
This meets or exceeds bovine excrement is close to fraud IMHO. The label sure looks like a let spec label but in reality it is close to fraudulent as it gets. Amsoils legal team must have worked overtime wording that so carefully that they don't get sued.
It should say. We only recommend it for all the specs listed but we didn't bother to license them. We are a good company, trust us to do the right thing if something goes afoul with your engine warranty.
Would you buy Travs engine oil with a label that reads.
It meets this spec and that spec, trust me i know it does but i cant be bothered to license any of it. This is why i can sell at such low prices.
You would tell me to go $hit in my hat but when Amsoil does it AND charges a premium you worship it
They sell a premium product at a premium price, no one disputes the quality of the product but there is no reason other than extra profit on their part for not getting licenses/approvals.
Exactly what you accuse GM of doing. I for one don't mind paying an extra .10-.25 a qt for quality assurance. Trust is good, certification is better.
Hey out of warranty no problem whatsoever. Amsoil is a good company with premium products and IMO trustworthy but in todays world where every i is dotted and every t crossed when it comes to warranty you just cant take that sort of a risk and you shouldn't have to.
JMHO and
Originally Posted By: Trav
What about API SN does Amsoil even have that license/approval? Come on, that alone would cover a lot of potential problems.
No, they do not.
Their XL and OE lines of oils are API certified.
What about API SN does Amsoil even have that license/approval? Come on, that alone would cover a lot of potential problems.
No, they do not.
Their XL and OE lines of oils are API certified.
Are they? If so those are the ones to use under warranty.
Again it only claims recommended. The problem i have is it claims dexos but yet is not on the dexos approved list so are they really approved????
Quote:
APPLICATIONS
AMSOIL OE Synthetic Motor Oil is excellent for use in all types of gasoline-fueled vehicles. It is recommended for all domestic and foreign vehicles requiring any of the listed performance specifications:
0W-20 (OEZ)
API SN (Resource Conserving), SM...
ILSAC GF-5, GF-4...
GM dexos1™ (supersedes 6094M)
Chrysler MS-6395
Quote:
AMSOIL XL Synthetic Motor Oil is excellent for use in all types of gasoline-fueled vehicles. It is recommended for all domestic and foreign vehicles requiring any of the following specifications:
XLT 10w30
API SN (Resource Conserving), SM…; ILSAC GF-5, GF-4…; ACEA A1/B1; GM 6094M, 4718M; Chrysler MS-6395
As opposed to one that really does have approvals.
Quote:
Manufacturer Approvals:
BMW Longlife-04
MB-Approval 229.51
Porsche A40
Recommended For:
ACEA C3
API SN/SM/CF...
Chrysler MS-10850 (supersedes MS-10896)
Ford WSS-M2C917-A
GM dexos2™ (supersedes LL-A-025 and LL-B-025)
Renault RN0700/RN0710
Volkswagen 502.00/505.01
Don't get me wrong i am not trying to beat a dead horse but lets get the facts on the table.
If they really have approved oils then all well and good lets have the approvals so people can make an informed decision based on factual info not just trust.
No question their 5w40 is a good oil that meets the specs for MB, BMW and Porsche requiring those approvals.
My point is, if it really doesn't matter then why did they go to the trouble of doing it for this oil? Why are they so quick to point out that it does have approvals?
Didn't their letter have the desired effect on the dealer and manufacturer?
Notice the dealer talking point of dealer wont challenge, i have a suspicion that possibly MB, BMW or Porsche told them to take their letter and shove it where the sun doesn't shine and pony up for this engine or else. Just my own thought.
Again it only claims recommended. The problem i have is it claims dexos but yet is not on the dexos approved list so are they really approved????
Quote:
APPLICATIONS
AMSOIL OE Synthetic Motor Oil is excellent for use in all types of gasoline-fueled vehicles. It is recommended for all domestic and foreign vehicles requiring any of the listed performance specifications:
0W-20 (OEZ)
API SN (Resource Conserving), SM...
ILSAC GF-5, GF-4...
GM dexos1™ (supersedes 6094M)
Chrysler MS-6395
Quote:
AMSOIL XL Synthetic Motor Oil is excellent for use in all types of gasoline-fueled vehicles. It is recommended for all domestic and foreign vehicles requiring any of the following specifications:
XLT 10w30
API SN (Resource Conserving), SM…; ILSAC GF-5, GF-4…; ACEA A1/B1; GM 6094M, 4718M; Chrysler MS-6395
As opposed to one that really does have approvals.
Quote:
Manufacturer Approvals:
BMW Longlife-04
MB-Approval 229.51
Porsche A40
Recommended For:
ACEA C3
API SN/SM/CF...
Chrysler MS-10850 (supersedes MS-10896)
Ford WSS-M2C917-A
GM dexos2™ (supersedes LL-A-025 and LL-B-025)
Renault RN0700/RN0710
Volkswagen 502.00/505.01
Don't get me wrong i am not trying to beat a dead horse but lets get the facts on the table.
If they really have approved oils then all well and good lets have the approvals so people can make an informed decision based on factual info not just trust.
No question their 5w40 is a good oil that meets the specs for MB, BMW and Porsche requiring those approvals.
My point is, if it really doesn't matter then why did they go to the trouble of doing it for this oil? Why are they so quick to point out that it does have approvals?
Didn't their letter have the desired effect on the dealer and manufacturer?
Notice the dealer talking point of dealer wont challenge, i have a suspicion that possibly MB, BMW or Porsche told them to take their letter and shove it where the sun doesn't shine and pony up for this engine or else. Just my own thought.
Originally Posted By: Trav
Are they? If so those are the ones to use under warranty.
Again it only claims recommended.
If you look at the bottles of their XL and OE oils, they carry the official API starburst logo.
I agree with you on all other points. I just wanted to straighten out this API aspect. As we know, API specs are fairly weak compared to mfg specs. But if your vehicle's manufacturer only calls for an API spec, then you're good to go with these Amsoil products.
Are they? If so those are the ones to use under warranty.
Again it only claims recommended.
If you look at the bottles of their XL and OE oils, they carry the official API starburst logo.
I agree with you on all other points. I just wanted to straighten out this API aspect. As we know, API specs are fairly weak compared to mfg specs. But if your vehicle's manufacturer only calls for an API spec, then you're good to go with these Amsoil products.
Thats good to know. If you can use API under warranty there is no reason not to use one of these. Like you say not much of a spec is it, but it could help with legalities.
Their labeling seems deliberately ambiguous.
Their labeling seems deliberately ambiguous.
This is a change in the language from 2011-2013 manuals that referenced API categories. There is no reference to ANY API certification in the manuals anymore. Sole reliance is on a dexos licensed oil.
Per the 2014 Silverado Owners Manual:
"Specification:
Use and ask for licensed engine oils with the dexos1® approved certification mark. Engine oils meeting the requirements for the vehicle should have the dexos1 approved certification mark. This certification mark indicates that the oil has been approved to the dexos1 specification.
Caution:
Failure to use the recommended engine oil can result in engine damage not covered by the vehicle warranty. Check with your dealer or service provider on whether the oil is approved to the dexos1 specification.
Viscosity Grade:
SAE 0W-20 is the best viscosity grade for the 5.3L and 6.2L V8 engines. SAE 5w30 is the best viscosity grade for the 4.3L V6, and 6.0L V8 engines. Do not use other viscosity grade oils such as SAE 10w30, 10W-40, or 20W-50."
Another tidbit from the Dexos website:
"The dexos® specification is uniquely designed to complement the exacting requirements of GM's advanced engine technology. The specification has gone through an extensive developmental and testing process. It requires a number of proprietary tests that are not included in current industry standards and sets performance criteria at a level that exceeds many current standards. The result is a high performance fluid providing significant wear protection, improved piston cleanliness, a reduction in volatility and oil consumption, enhanced aeration control for improved fuel efficiency, and better oxidation properties.
GM has found that using substandard oil can affect engine performance and, in the worst-case scenario, may damage or harm the engine. Only licensed dexos® products have been certified by GM to meet the dexos® specification. Only officially licensed products have gone through GM's rigorous testing process, are monitored for quality, and are recommended for use in GM vehicles. Unlicensed product quality and suitability for GM vehicles cannot be guaranteed and, therefore, use of unlicensed products may result in lower levels of performance and engine damage not covered under warranty."
It's hard to justify using an Amsoil product in my new Silverado given they are not LISCENSED products. GM attached a pretty substantial powertrain warranty to their vehicles and regardless if Amsoil were to fight GM on my behalf if something were to go wrong, it would surely be while my vehicle is sitting out of service and I'm incuring ancillary costs waiting on repairs. Not worth the risk.
Per the 2014 Silverado Owners Manual:
"Specification:
Use and ask for licensed engine oils with the dexos1® approved certification mark. Engine oils meeting the requirements for the vehicle should have the dexos1 approved certification mark. This certification mark indicates that the oil has been approved to the dexos1 specification.
Caution:
Failure to use the recommended engine oil can result in engine damage not covered by the vehicle warranty. Check with your dealer or service provider on whether the oil is approved to the dexos1 specification.
Viscosity Grade:
SAE 0W-20 is the best viscosity grade for the 5.3L and 6.2L V8 engines. SAE 5w30 is the best viscosity grade for the 4.3L V6, and 6.0L V8 engines. Do not use other viscosity grade oils such as SAE 10w30, 10W-40, or 20W-50."
Another tidbit from the Dexos website:
"The dexos® specification is uniquely designed to complement the exacting requirements of GM's advanced engine technology. The specification has gone through an extensive developmental and testing process. It requires a number of proprietary tests that are not included in current industry standards and sets performance criteria at a level that exceeds many current standards. The result is a high performance fluid providing significant wear protection, improved piston cleanliness, a reduction in volatility and oil consumption, enhanced aeration control for improved fuel efficiency, and better oxidation properties.
GM has found that using substandard oil can affect engine performance and, in the worst-case scenario, may damage or harm the engine. Only licensed dexos® products have been certified by GM to meet the dexos® specification. Only officially licensed products have gone through GM's rigorous testing process, are monitored for quality, and are recommended for use in GM vehicles. Unlicensed product quality and suitability for GM vehicles cannot be guaranteed and, therefore, use of unlicensed products may result in lower levels of performance and engine damage not covered under warranty."
It's hard to justify using an Amsoil product in my new Silverado given they are not LISCENSED products. GM attached a pretty substantial powertrain warranty to their vehicles and regardless if Amsoil were to fight GM on my behalf if something were to go wrong, it would surely be while my vehicle is sitting out of service and I'm incuring ancillary costs waiting on repairs. Not worth the risk.
Originally Posted By: Pablo
AMSOIL Dexos compliant fluids will not void the manufacturer’s warranty. It simply won't. And yes Magnuson Moss act does play a role. If Amsoil claims Dexos, then they have run and exceeded ALL the tests. Amsoil cannot legally claim Dexos without passing the proper testing. Again, some folks here claim they know warranty law and they simply do not.
Being Dexos “certified” means paying General Motors to be on a special list. Amsoil currently chooses not to participate in that scheme.
GM knows this and will not challenge. If the dealer somehow challenges, then quickly contact Amsoil, Amsoil will prove to the dealer the oil meets all the Dexos requirements.
A quick question for Pablo or anybody for that matter who knows regarding the XL and Signature oils. They specifically state on the bottles and in the PDS in italics that they are "fortified with detergents that exceed dexos1 sulfated ash specifications"
I understand that they are higher detergent oils that inherently have more SAPS, but dexos caps SA at 1% for dexos1. That's one of the requirements to be licensed. How does Amsoil claim to be recommended the Signature and XL lines for dexos1 if the add pack used exceeds one of the very requirements for certification?
AMSOIL Dexos compliant fluids will not void the manufacturer’s warranty. It simply won't. And yes Magnuson Moss act does play a role. If Amsoil claims Dexos, then they have run and exceeded ALL the tests. Amsoil cannot legally claim Dexos without passing the proper testing. Again, some folks here claim they know warranty law and they simply do not.
Being Dexos “certified” means paying General Motors to be on a special list. Amsoil currently chooses not to participate in that scheme.
GM knows this and will not challenge. If the dealer somehow challenges, then quickly contact Amsoil, Amsoil will prove to the dealer the oil meets all the Dexos requirements.
A quick question for Pablo or anybody for that matter who knows regarding the XL and Signature oils. They specifically state on the bottles and in the PDS in italics that they are "fortified with detergents that exceed dexos1 sulfated ash specifications"
I understand that they are higher detergent oils that inherently have more SAPS, but dexos caps SA at 1% for dexos1. That's one of the requirements to be licensed. How does Amsoil claim to be recommended the Signature and XL lines for dexos1 if the add pack used exceeds one of the very requirements for certification?
+1 Smart move. I would never use anything the manufacturer might deem sketchy under warranty.
Its my understanding some manufacturers still allow generic API spec oils, i have no idea which ones but for those cases it would be okay. Best to check the owners manual and the warranty before using non approved/licensed fluids.
Its my understanding some manufacturers still allow generic API spec oils, i have no idea which ones but for those cases it would be okay. Best to check the owners manual and the warranty before using non approved/licensed fluids.
Originally Posted By: zuluplus30
I understand that they are higher detergent oils that inherently have more SAPS, but dexos caps SA at 1% for dexos1. That's one of the requirements to be licensed. How does Amsoil claim to be recommended the Signature and XL lines for dexos1 if the add pack used exceeds one of the very requirements for certification?
Nice catch.
I, too, would like Amsoil to explain this one.
I understand that they are higher detergent oils that inherently have more SAPS, but dexos caps SA at 1% for dexos1. That's one of the requirements to be licensed. How does Amsoil claim to be recommended the Signature and XL lines for dexos1 if the add pack used exceeds one of the very requirements for certification?
Nice catch.
I, too, would like Amsoil to explain this one.
Magnusson moss act says you can use whatever oil you so long as meating simple specs like multi weight grade.
You have been dooped.
You have been dooped.
It seems if you have a GM under warranty it would be foolhardy to use any oil that is not dexos approved.
I don't know but I'm sure Ford, Chrysler and the other manufacturers have similar language in their warranty books.
I don't know but I'm sure Ford, Chrysler and the other manufacturers have similar language in their warranty books.
Originally Posted By: Nate1979
Originally Posted By: zpinch
Magnusson moss act says you can use whatever oil you so long as meating simple specs like multi weight grade.
You have been dooped.
LOL I hope you were joking.
I'm saying you are 'supposed' to be able use whatever oil you wish in your vehicle, but these new engine oil certs are slipping through loopholes. Yes, I was joking, in a sense...
Seriously, DOES the Magnusson Moss Act protect consumers at all with regard to warranty requirements like Dexos? Pablo, can you chime in on this?
Originally Posted By: zpinch
Magnusson moss act says you can use whatever oil you so long as meating simple specs like multi weight grade.
You have been dooped.
LOL I hope you were joking.
I'm saying you are 'supposed' to be able use whatever oil you wish in your vehicle, but these new engine oil certs are slipping through loopholes. Yes, I was joking, in a sense...
Seriously, DOES the Magnusson Moss Act protect consumers at all with regard to warranty requirements like Dexos? Pablo, can you chime in on this?
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: zpinch
Seriously, DOES the Magnusson Moss Act protect consumers at all with regard to warranty requirements like Dexos?
Amsoil's official stance on this is on their website:
Quote:
How does using AMSOIL synthetic motor oil affect new vehicle warranties?
Answer: Using AMSOIL synthetic motor oil has no affect on vehicle warranties. A federal law called the Magnuson-Moss Act (1975) prevents original equipment manufacturers from putting conditions on vehicle warranties attached to any product or service identified by brand, trade or corporate name, unless the manufacturer provides that product or service free of charge. This means consumers have the freedom to use aftermarket products of their choice without fear of losing the original limited or implied vehicle warranty. For additional information, contact the AMSOIL Technical Department at (715) 399-TECH (8324) or [email protected].
But to me, the above doesn't really answer the question. Notice the part I underlined. Is a manufacturer oil specification (such as dexos1) considered a product or service? To me, it's not. It's a specification detailing what the product must be like, just like you have specifications for tires, airbags, seat belts, headlights, etc.
I also don't agree with their interpretation that "consumers have the freedom to use aftermarket products of their choice without fear of losing the original limited or implied vehicle warranty," but I am not a lawyer, so this is just my opinion. My understanding of MM was that yes, you can use aftermarket products, but those products must still adhere to the OEM requirements/specifications. So back to that 1% SA limit that the other poster noted above....
Seriously, DOES the Magnusson Moss Act protect consumers at all with regard to warranty requirements like Dexos?
Amsoil's official stance on this is on their website:
Quote:
How does using AMSOIL synthetic motor oil affect new vehicle warranties?
Answer: Using AMSOIL synthetic motor oil has no affect on vehicle warranties. A federal law called the Magnuson-Moss Act (1975) prevents original equipment manufacturers from putting conditions on vehicle warranties attached to any product or service identified by brand, trade or corporate name, unless the manufacturer provides that product or service free of charge. This means consumers have the freedom to use aftermarket products of their choice without fear of losing the original limited or implied vehicle warranty. For additional information, contact the AMSOIL Technical Department at (715) 399-TECH (8324) or [email protected].
But to me, the above doesn't really answer the question. Notice the part I underlined. Is a manufacturer oil specification (such as dexos1) considered a product or service? To me, it's not. It's a specification detailing what the product must be like, just like you have specifications for tires, airbags, seat belts, headlights, etc.
I also don't agree with their interpretation that "consumers have the freedom to use aftermarket products of their choice without fear of losing the original limited or implied vehicle warranty," but I am not a lawyer, so this is just my opinion. My understanding of MM was that yes, you can use aftermarket products, but those products must still adhere to the OEM requirements/specifications. So back to that 1% SA limit that the other poster noted above....
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