Just had an alignment done when Toyota replaced my DS front wheel bearing. Now the car steers like a loaded minivan. Looking at the B4 and after alignment printout, it appear they toed IN the car a bit more than it was before (total toe). Anyone feel the effect of a tiny bit of toe OUT? I recall we ran our old FIAT 128 toed out a bit.
Alignment: Tow OUT to help Steering on FWD?
- Thread starter ARCOgraphite
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I dont have it in inch fractions, IIRC it was 0.14 deg. The car was on "tippy toes" after the alignment and the steering wouldnt self-center if you turned the wheel more than a 1/4 turn. Whats up with that?
I just noticed I typed Tow instead of Toe 
Thats almost as bad as breaks instead of brakes
Thats almost as bad as breaks instead of brakes sounds like they tore up your tie rod when they removed your knuckle and your steering is binding, could also be a strut plate or ball-joint, but I would first look at the tie rod.
small amounts of toe change like that aren't going to make much of a difference like what you feel with the wheel not returning to center. That is a physical part problem.
.14 seems a little high, I try to go .04-.06, unless that .14 was spec. I do all the alignments at my shop, I generally try to toe in every car I can because it seems to help them drive better on the road. Plus any slack in your steering system will make the tires toe out anyway when you are driving forward. That is another reason why I try to compensate and run a little bit of toe in on cars(positive value)
small amounts of toe change like that aren't going to make much of a difference like what you feel with the wheel not returning to center. That is a physical part problem.
.14 seems a little high, I try to go .04-.06, unless that .14 was spec. I do all the alignments at my shop, I generally try to toe in every car I can because it seems to help them drive better on the road. Plus any slack in your steering system will make the tires toe out anyway when you are driving forward. That is another reason why I try to compensate and run a little bit of toe in on cars(positive value)
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I was gonna ask if .14 was the correct spec for your Toyoya.
38SHO,
What type of alignment equipment does your shop use ?
38SHO,
What type of alignment equipment does your shop use ?
Self centering usually a caster issue.
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
I dont have it in inch fractions, IIRC it was 0.14 deg. The car was on "tippy toes" after the alignment and the steering wouldnt self-center if you turned the wheel more than a 1/4 turn. Whats up with that?
0.14º in, correct?
AFAIK, the "tippy toes" feeling and lack of self-centering are usually associated with toe out, not toe in....
Any chance you could scan and post the before and after printouts?
I dont have it in inch fractions, IIRC it was 0.14 deg. The car was on "tippy toes" after the alignment and the steering wouldnt self-center if you turned the wheel more than a 1/4 turn. Whats up with that?
0.14º in, correct?
AFAIK, the "tippy toes" feeling and lack of self-centering are usually associated with toe out, not toe in....
Any chance you could scan and post the before and after printouts?
I have the papers in the car - Ill try to get to thenm in a bit - morning housework you know
I recall there was a setback issue too up front. I think the rear ride height is sagging a bit due to my generous 230lbs in this tiny 3 door car. I did hit a pothole on the highway, but it didnt bruise a tire or bend a steel rim. The alignment felt a bit out after that. the DS front tire is currently rounding off all the tread edges across the tire, making the tire look like its "melting" Also when I back up with the wheel turned 1/2 way I get a scraping sound that wasnt there before. Brake rotor shield? Gee what a mess!
Hunter WinAlign
full wireless
brand new, had it for maybe 6-8 months
gee sucks that the dealer did this work, but from what i've seen lately, dealers have some pretty half [censored] mechanics! They try to work too fast and beat the clock instead of providing a quality job for the customer. This just proves my train of thought on that one more time......... I don't try to make a killing every week, I make enough to pay my bills and be able to eat out every now and then. Instead I put all my effort into doing a clean, proper job that the customer couldn't get anywhere else. I make sure to do everything right the first time, might take me longer, but in the years I've been working at my current shop, I can count my comebacks on 3 fingers, and I still debate if one was really my fault or a common problem those cars have.
full wireless
brand new, had it for maybe 6-8 months
gee sucks that the dealer did this work, but from what i've seen lately, dealers have some pretty half [censored] mechanics! They try to work too fast and beat the clock instead of providing a quality job for the customer. This just proves my train of thought on that one more time......... I don't try to make a killing every week, I make enough to pay my bills and be able to eat out every now and then. Instead I put all my effort into doing a clean, proper job that the customer couldn't get anywhere else. I make sure to do everything right the first time, might take me longer, but in the years I've been working at my current shop, I can count my comebacks on 3 fingers, and I still debate if one was really my fault or a common problem those cars have.
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If the tread edges are "melting" there's a toe issue. Get a different shop to look at it.
Caster is 4.5 deg both sides(on a spec of 3.7 to 5.5), Camber on one side is -0.5 deg should be: -0.6 > -0.9 deg, wheelbase is 0.6 inch shorter on one side. Car seems to sag in the rear, but they dont have a ride height measurement (spec is level). Can I assume ride height is OK if caster is well in spec? Is ride height measured from a frame check point to the to the road? -
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Total toe is in 0.10 deg, was in 0.04 B4. -
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Can I correct the toe on my driveway by steering OUT the opposite side tierod the direction the car steers with steering wheel straight? Now I hear there is a E-steering module reset procedure required on E-steering cars?! Oh joy
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Total toe is in 0.10 deg, was in 0.04 B4. -
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Can I correct the toe on my driveway by steering OUT the opposite side tierod the direction the car steers with steering wheel straight? Now I hear there is a E-steering module reset procedure required on E-steering cars?! Oh joy
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I wouldn't really suggest trying to adjust the toe yourself
the [censored] things are so touchy and your really not that far off
now if one side were off half a degree.... then you could do a lot better yourself
I don't do the ride heigth normally, they attach to the top of the wheel wells on my machine and work from the cameras that pick up the heads on the wheels. So it calculates all those angles to figure out how high the body is above the wheel. On some of the full frame vehicles you can also input values on the frame angle to the ground front to back in degrees. But that is something you figure out yourself and give to the machine.
I'd say your caster numbers are great, but what were both the camber numbers in front? you only mentioned one
what were the camber numbers on the rear? I'm not familiar with the Yaris, is that a solid axle rear or an adjustable independant reat?
the [censored] things are so touchy and your really not that far off
now if one side were off half a degree.... then you could do a lot better yourself
I don't do the ride heigth normally, they attach to the top of the wheel wells on my machine and work from the cameras that pick up the heads on the wheels. So it calculates all those angles to figure out how high the body is above the wheel. On some of the full frame vehicles you can also input values on the frame angle to the ground front to back in degrees. But that is something you figure out yourself and give to the machine.
I'd say your caster numbers are great, but what were both the camber numbers in front? you only mentioned one
what were the camber numbers on the rear? I'm not familiar with the Yaris, is that a solid axle rear or an adjustable independant reat?
I think Rear spring sag can cause a track difference? The car has Twist beam rear, non-alignable. The car had the front hub wheel bearing replaced AFTER the alignment.
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Arco - FWD cars should have a bit of toe out [static].
Why?
Because it is a STATIC measurement, and when driving, FWD will pull the tire's fronts together [suspension slop in various places]. We want zero toe DYNAMIC when driving to minimize wear and get the best gas mileage.
Toe out on the front is also good for turning, and is used a lot with track cars, and guys who drive fast in corners on the street.
The rears of a FWD car should almost always be toe'd IN. They are pulled straight when driving.
Also, toe is used to compensate for camber. If your tires are in at the top [neg camber] this is generally a good thing. 1/2 to 1 degree for the street in nice on the fronts. But toe out will compensate for each tire waning to turn like a motorcycle tire because of the camber. It works out well.
But each car is different. Factory specs include a wide range spec [close enough], and a preferred exact setting.
I'd like to see the recommended specs, and what you actually have.
BTW guys, nomenclature can get confusing.
Negative toe is toe out! Positive toe is toe in!
-0.2mm, or with the tires closer in front, is positive toe.
So a FWD car should get negative toe in front, with the tires pointing out in front.
If it is written in text neg toe, then they are toe'd out. If it says '-' toe, it is toe'd in.
This tripped me up for years!
Why?
Because it is a STATIC measurement, and when driving, FWD will pull the tire's fronts together [suspension slop in various places]. We want zero toe DYNAMIC when driving to minimize wear and get the best gas mileage.
Toe out on the front is also good for turning, and is used a lot with track cars, and guys who drive fast in corners on the street.
The rears of a FWD car should almost always be toe'd IN. They are pulled straight when driving.
Also, toe is used to compensate for camber. If your tires are in at the top [neg camber] this is generally a good thing. 1/2 to 1 degree for the street in nice on the fronts. But toe out will compensate for each tire waning to turn like a motorcycle tire because of the camber. It works out well.
But each car is different. Factory specs include a wide range spec [close enough], and a preferred exact setting.
I'd like to see the recommended specs, and what you actually have.
BTW guys, nomenclature can get confusing.
Negative toe is toe out! Positive toe is toe in!
-0.2mm, or with the tires closer in front, is positive toe.
So a FWD car should get negative toe in front, with the tires pointing out in front.
If it is written in text neg toe, then they are toe'd out. If it says '-' toe, it is toe'd in.
This tripped me up for years!
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Originally Posted By: 38sho
Hunter WinAlign
full wireless
brand new, had it for maybe 6-8 months
gee sucks that the dealer did this work, but from what i've seen lately, dealers have some pretty half [censored] mechanics! They try to work too fast and beat the clock instead of providing a quality job for the customer. This just proves my train of thought on that one more time......... I don't try to make a killing every week, I make enough to pay my bills and be able to eat out every now and then. Instead I put all my effort into doing a clean, proper job that the customer couldn't get anywhere else. I make sure to do everything right the first time, might take me longer, but in the years I've been working at my current shop, I can count my comebacks on 3 fingers, and I still debate if one was really my fault or a common problem those cars have.
When I am ready to get an alignment I will have to hunt you down. I am in your area and got so many bad alignments in the early 90's that I have never had a car aligned since.
I am just over 100k on my current car and it still drives straight and the tires wear evenly. I am scared that it can only be made worse. One of these days though I will have to give in as parts wear.
I have a good guy in Tequesta that does the work I don't want to, or can't do but he doesn't do alignments.
Hunter WinAlign
full wireless
brand new, had it for maybe 6-8 months
gee sucks that the dealer did this work, but from what i've seen lately, dealers have some pretty half [censored] mechanics! They try to work too fast and beat the clock instead of providing a quality job for the customer. This just proves my train of thought on that one more time......... I don't try to make a killing every week, I make enough to pay my bills and be able to eat out every now and then. Instead I put all my effort into doing a clean, proper job that the customer couldn't get anywhere else. I make sure to do everything right the first time, might take me longer, but in the years I've been working at my current shop, I can count my comebacks on 3 fingers, and I still debate if one was really my fault or a common problem those cars have.
When I am ready to get an alignment I will have to hunt you down. I am in your area and got so many bad alignments in the early 90's that I have never had a car aligned since.
I am just over 100k on my current car and it still drives straight and the tires wear evenly. I am scared that it can only be made worse. One of these days though I will have to give in as parts wear.
I have a good guy in Tequesta that does the work I don't want to, or can't do but he doesn't do alignments.
Quote:
I am in your area and got so many bad alignments in the early 90's that I have never had a car aligned since.
I once had to take my car to 3 different Tire Kingdoms so they correctly align the car and center the steering wheel, I only paid for the first alignment. Its good to know thats there is a quality mechanic in the Palm Beach area that I can go to.
I am in your area and got so many bad alignments in the early 90's that I have never had a car aligned since.
I once had to take my car to 3 different Tire Kingdoms so they correctly align the car and center the steering wheel, I only paid for the first alignment. Its good to know thats there is a quality mechanic in the Palm Beach area that I can go to.
I find the stealership is the best place for that...It will generally cost around 60 bucks and they get it right the first time...At least that's how it's been with all of our cars and previous cars for a long time now.
Toyota is in Toyota Service today for brake bleed, clutch bleed, rotate F>R and re-alignment. I asked for less toe-in and to have them check why camber is out of spec. Also car makes a scraping noise while reversing with the wheel turned right a little. Car Didnt do this untill they replace the DS front wheel bearing I got a 10 Camry SE sport loaner with 35K on it; I dont like it.
I got a 10 Camry SE sport loaner with 35K on it; I dont like it.- Status
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