Exactly. My understanding of the "Universal Averages" data is that it's the average for that engine or vehicle...not the average for that particular oil.
Additive depletion over OCI
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Exactly. My understanding of the "Universal Averages" data is that it's the average for that engine or vehicle...not the average for that particular oil.
Titan,
In my 13 years of experience with doing spectrographic analysis, the levels of Zn/P/Ca/Mg will only go down noticable if the oil is SEVERELY depleted. However during a normal OCI for that particular oil - which can be as long as 20k-25k for something like Amsoil - tracking the levels of additives is NOT the way to determine the service life left in the oil.
Monitoring of the TBN, the delta in viscosity @ 100C and the levels of oxidation/nitration (or if you prefer: "total solids"),is a much better way to evaluate oil life.
The concept of periodically "doping" the oil with additional additives is technically possible. But they would have to be in the same chemical form as the add pack in the oil to work properly. For example, there are a number of chemical forms of ZnDTC, ZnDTP, etc that are used as additives. There are also various chemical forms of Calcium and Magnesium that function as detergent/dispersants. Finally, oil additives only work properly if their levels are carefully balanced - and too much of any one can actually cause accelerated wear and or increased deposit formation.
The take home message is that oil formulation should be left to specialists in this field. Getting an oil to work properly is only slightly more complicated than doing brain surgery...
TD
In my 13 years of experience with doing spectrographic analysis, the levels of Zn/P/Ca/Mg will only go down noticable if the oil is SEVERELY depleted. However during a normal OCI for that particular oil - which can be as long as 20k-25k for something like Amsoil - tracking the levels of additives is NOT the way to determine the service life left in the oil.
Monitoring of the TBN, the delta in viscosity @ 100C and the levels of oxidation/nitration (or if you prefer: "total solids"),is a much better way to evaluate oil life.
The concept of periodically "doping" the oil with additional additives is technically possible. But they would have to be in the same chemical form as the add pack in the oil to work properly. For example, there are a number of chemical forms of ZnDTC, ZnDTP, etc that are used as additives. There are also various chemical forms of Calcium and Magnesium that function as detergent/dispersants. Finally, oil additives only work properly if their levels are carefully balanced - and too much of any one can actually cause accelerated wear and or increased deposit formation.
The take home message is that oil formulation should be left to specialists in this field. Getting an oil to work properly is only slightly more complicated than doing brain surgery...
TD
""The borate esters combine synergistically with ZDDP to form low friction, AW films, so when the boron is depleted the ability of the oil to minimize wear is degraded""
I dis agree if the boron combines with ZDDP and thus is being depelted then the ZN will depelet also since they are "combined" it does not.
I tend to think that IF moly and boron drop it is due to falling out of solution.
bruce
I dis agree if the boron combines with ZDDP and thus is being depelted then the ZN will depelet also since they are "combined" it does not.
I tend to think that IF moly and boron drop it is due to falling out of solution.
bruce
long hauls have around 35L-40L oil capacity they have 3 oil filters coolant filters huge air filters and they run at highway speeds i regularly see 200k on regualr cheap diesel motor oil nothing happens
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Titan,
In my 13 years of experience with doing spectrographic analysis, the levels of Zn/P/Ca/Mg will only go down noticable if the oil is SEVERELY depleted. However during a normal OCI for that particular oil - which can be as long as 20k-25k for something like Amsoil - tracking the levels of additives is NOT the way to determine the service life left in the oil.
Monitoring of the TBN, the delta in viscosity @ 100C and the levels of oxidation/nitration (or if you prefer: "total solids"),is a much better way to evaluate oil life.
The concept of periodically "doping" the oil with additional additives is technically possible. But they would have to be in the same chemical form as the add pack in the oil to work properly. For example, there are a number of chemical forms of ZnDTC, ZnDTP, etc that are used as additives. There are also various chemical forms of Calcium and Magnesium that function as detergent/dispersants. Finally, oil additives only work properly if their levels are carefully balanced - and too much of any one can actually cause accelerated wear and or increased deposit formation.
The take home message is that oil formulation should be left to specialists in this field. Getting an oil to work properly is only slightly more complicated than doing brain surgery...
TD
So then all the advanced oil additives on sale at Big Lots aren't really needed to get satisfactory service from modern motor oil? Huh, what a surprise.
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Titan,
In my 13 years of experience with doing spectrographic analysis, the levels of Zn/P/Ca/Mg will only go down noticable if the oil is SEVERELY depleted. However during a normal OCI for that particular oil - which can be as long as 20k-25k for something like Amsoil - tracking the levels of additives is NOT the way to determine the service life left in the oil.
Monitoring of the TBN, the delta in viscosity @ 100C and the levels of oxidation/nitration (or if you prefer: "total solids"),is a much better way to evaluate oil life.
The concept of periodically "doping" the oil with additional additives is technically possible. But they would have to be in the same chemical form as the add pack in the oil to work properly. For example, there are a number of chemical forms of ZnDTC, ZnDTP, etc that are used as additives. There are also various chemical forms of Calcium and Magnesium that function as detergent/dispersants. Finally, oil additives only work properly if their levels are carefully balanced - and too much of any one can actually cause accelerated wear and or increased deposit formation.
The take home message is that oil formulation should be left to specialists in this field. Getting an oil to work properly is only slightly more complicated than doing brain surgery...
TD
So then all the advanced oil additives on sale at Big Lots aren't really needed to get satisfactory service from modern motor oil? Huh, what a surprise.
Well, forgetting for a minute the actual additive, what's the base oil composed of in SLOB, CD-2 or any of the others? VSOT may be better, but look how thick it is. Are you diluting a superior base stock with these adds? I had a bottle of SLOB on the shelf in the garage, it turned cold out there, and the SLOB doesn't even shake up in the bottle it's so thick. At room temp it flows, but by itself in the cold? Doesn't make sense to use the stuff. And VSOT? IN the cold?
The testing that went into SM/GF4 was on pushrods anyway, why wreck the cat on a newer car?
These recommendations go along with what I've gleaned from this site over the past couple of years. Good quality engine oil is good enough by itself. I do add some Lube Control, not because I'm trying to add zinc/boron/etc., but, because I'm trying to keep the engine sparkly clean, and anything that might help keep the oil thinner as it ages makes sense to me, as does the buffering of acids, as I understand LC helps accomplish.
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The testing that went into SM/GF4 was on pushrods anyway, why wreck the cat on a newer car?
Are we SURE that this would happen, given properly funtioning valve seals and rings?? Weren't the "guilty" add pack minerals dropped/reduced for the SM rating/approval to satisfy the "lowest common denominator" (i.e.; an assumption that there would be cat poisoning from zinc/phos./etc., due to seal/ring blowby)???
I hear alot about ruining catalytic converters with SL and older oils. Has this ever happened to anyone here? What was the mileage, cost and circumstances?
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The testing that went into SM/GF4 was on pushrods anyway, why wreck the cat on a newer car?
Are we SURE that this would happen, given properly funtioning valve seals and rings?? Weren't the "guilty" add pack minerals dropped/reduced for the SM rating/approval to satisfy the "lowest common denominator" (i.e.; an assumption that there would be cat poisoning from zinc/phos./etc., due to seal/ring blowby)???
Yes, they were, actually. Therefore, why mess with the formulation by adding ZDDP and a ton of moly to oil that's already formulated for the cars specc'd for it? Especially cars that don't need it..
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The testing that went into SM/GF4 was on pushrods anyway, why wreck the cat on a newer car?
Are we SURE that this would happen, given properly funtioning valve seals and rings?? Weren't the "guilty" add pack minerals dropped/reduced for the SM rating/approval to satisfy the "lowest common denominator" (i.e.; an assumption that there would be cat poisoning from zinc/phos./etc., due to seal/ring blowby)???
Yes, they were, actually. Therefore, why mess with the formulation by adding ZDDP and a ton of moly to oil that's already formulated for the cars specc'd for it? Especially cars that don't need it..
What makes you so sure my engine does not need it?? (It's a hi-po pushrod engine with very high valve seat pressures [MUCH HIGHER than a GM 3800 V-6 BTW] due to high # springs.)The fact that it's not a solid roller only lessens the need so much.
Well, I've said (and lots of others) many times, a high-pop engine with a ton of cam needs it. But you're one of the few and proud. Most folks reformulating their oil don't need it, nor do their cats..
I do worry about additives being used up during the course of time that a motor oil is in service in an engine. This is one of the reasons why I favor short oil change periods/mileage and also why I often wonder if synthetic oil is what we really should be using.
Motor oil has improved a lot. But not so long ago I came across information that viscosity index improvers in conventional motor oil could be used up in as little as 500 miles. A synthetic oil would provide some backup security. And motor oils can also shear down. Again, synthetic oils provide some backup protection.
Judging from the prices of Pennzoil Platinum at Wal-Mart I think I will go with it (unless I do a Auto-RX cleaning and rinse in which case I can use Wal-Mart SuperTech). The PP really is not so much more expensive than conventional motor oil.
There are of course some supplements that can supply some new additive to a used oil. For example, the Valvoline oil supplements. A few oz. might make a difference in a oil that has been in use for a while.
Motor oil has improved a lot. But not so long ago I came across information that viscosity index improvers in conventional motor oil could be used up in as little as 500 miles. A synthetic oil would provide some backup security. And motor oils can also shear down. Again, synthetic oils provide some backup protection.
Judging from the prices of Pennzoil Platinum at Wal-Mart I think I will go with it (unless I do a Auto-RX cleaning and rinse in which case I can use Wal-Mart SuperTech). The PP really is not so much more expensive than conventional motor oil.
There are of course some supplements that can supply some new additive to a used oil. For example, the Valvoline oil supplements. A few oz. might make a difference in a oil that has been in use for a while.
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