ADBV Silicone vs Nitrile

[cp3]

Well as I mentioned in my B43-S thread, I put all of the ADBVs from the filters I opened this week outside. Didn't get to the -18C they were calling for but it was a crisp -14C (7F) this morning. I was quite surprised at the results so I tried to come up with a more consistent way to display them that crunching the in my hand.....this what i came up with.

I have to say it did not take long for the nitrile to warm as I only had them inside for a few minutes and they were now reasonably pliable. So in the shot glasses they go, back out on the porch for about 25 minutes. The silicone Wix picture is immediately after I removed it from the glass. The Baldwin, I took several pics before I got one I liked, then changed a setting on the camera and took the one that is closer so it was out of the glass much longer.

I still don't know that this is a problem on the G6, with the filter sitting upright I don't know how much oil is going to drain out. My Son's Saturn however, with the horizontal position of the filter is a different story.

I do wonder though how much more restrictive the nitrile must be during a cold start on any car. This inflexibility must only get worse as the temperature drops and as length of use hardens the nitrile.

Although I didn't do this with the ACDelco ADBV it was outside as well. If anything it was even a little worse than the Baldwin.

Here they are....

 

[Sayjac]

Quote:
I do wonder though how much more restrictive the nitrile must be during a cold start on any car.

Not sure restriction is really an issue as much as the inability to prevent some drain back after sitting for some time. That said, the leaf or coil spring should be keeping pressure on the adbv, keeping it fairly uniform.

But as has been known, silicone is more flexible and longer lasting than nitrile. That said, imo if you're not getting a noticeable start up rattle, shouldn't be a big issue.

 

[cp3]

Originally Posted By: sayjac
Not sure restriction is really an issue as much as the inability to prevent some drain back after sitting for some time. That said, the leaf or coil spring should be keeping pressure on the adbv, keeping it fairly uniform.

But as has been known, silicone is more flexible and longer lasting than nitrile. That said, imo if you're not getting a noticeable start up rattle, shouldn't be a big issue.


I'm talking COLD starts. Like northern Canada, -30C starts. As stiff as the nitrile was at -14C it has to cause some restriction as the oil has to push it off of the inlet holes.....no? Not like it's a major concern just curious.

Guess I'm one of those guys that just need to see it for myself. Even though it has been said lots of times and even by respected members such as yourself, it still surprised me just how dramatic the difference was.

 

[Doog]

Originally Posted By: cp3
Originally Posted By: sayjac
Not sure restriction is really an issue as much as the inability to prevent some drain back after sitting for some time. That said, the leaf or coil spring should be keeping pressure on the adbv, keeping it fairly uniform.

But as has been known, silicone is more flexible and longer lasting than nitrile. That said, imo if you're not getting a noticeable start up rattle, shouldn't be a big issue.


I'm talking COLD starts. Like northern Canada, -30C starts. As stiff as the nitrile was at -14C it has to cause some restriction as the oil has to push it off of the inlet holes.....no? Not like it's a major concern just curious.

Guess I'm one of those guys that just need to see it for myself. Even though it has been said lots of times and even by respected members such as yourself, it still surprised me just how dramatic the difference was.


I would only get a silicone one with those cold temps.

 

[Capa]

I recall once getting a rattle but only in the coldest temperatures. I had a Fram (the pricier one, Extended Guard?). I am not sure, however, that it was the oil filter. So, theoretically, which ADBV is better?

 

[Sayjac]

I'm not disputing that silicone is the superior adbv material for flexibility and longevity. Just don't think that a nitrile/rubber adbv would be more restrictive than the engine itself even in cold weather. In other words, I'm skeptical of any 'significant' added restriction from the adbv.

As for a start up rattle, most likely cause would be a compromised adbv allowing some drain back, causing a dry start condition. Yes, a nitrile adbv would be more susceptible than silicone to being compromised, especially in cold weather and/or over time.

 

[dishdude]

I always found that the heat from the oil would turn rubber ADBVs into hard plastic within a few thousand miles. The silicone ones would stay pliable.

I know if I had a horizontal or upside down mounted filter, I would only use filters with nitrile valves and metal construction.

 

[ltslimjim]

Engine could be in bypass to start in the coldest of mornings anyway, just unfortunate IF the nitrile turns to that shape while freezing temps set in, thus allowing for the dry-start before bypass can get oil up the galleries to the top-end.

 

[Capa]

So which filter have the silicone ABDV?

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: ltslimjim
Engine could be in bypass to start in the coldest of mornings anyway, just unfortunate IF the nitrile turns to that shape while freezing temps set in, thus allowing for the dry-start before bypass can get oil up the galleries to the top-end.


Keep in mind that when the engine is hot and shut off, the nitrile ADBV will be all hot an flexible and therefore will be in it's proper shape, and should cool down in the fully sealed state.

If the car then sat in sub zero weather over night, I could see that the nitrile ADBV would be very stiff. IMO, it would definitely add some restriction to oil flow that the oil pump would have to over come. If the stiff nitrile ADBV added enough restriction to cause the pump to go all the way upto pressure relief is unknown. Once the oil pump goes into pressure relief mode, that is when oil flow to the engine could become less due to large restrictions down stream of the pump.

Bottom line for me is - always use filters with silicone ADBVs. They are superior for sure.

cp3 - cool experiment ... literally!

 

[Sayjac]

What it shows to me more than any possible significant restriction, is why a nitrile combo valve might not function properly in colder temps or over time. Then, it's not just an issue of drain back but possibly one of bypass too. And, perhaps explains why webfors ecore media was breached.

But, I just finished/posted using a AAP Total Grip with a nitrile adbv still holding oil. So, I have no problem using a filter with nitrile adbv for 5k/6m as long as there's no start up rattle, and the price is right.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: sayjac
What it shows to me more than any possible significant restriction, is why a nitrile combo valve might not function properly in colder temps or over time. Then, it's not just an issue of drain back but possibly one of bypass too.


The ADBV should have no bearing on if the filter goes into bypass or not.

I think it's possible a very cold nitrile ADBV could get damaged/cracked during cold start-ups due to being so brittle; and if it does get damaged then it probably wouldn't seal very well after that.

 

[Sayjac]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: sayjac
What it shows to me more than any possible significant restriction, is why a nitrile combo valve might not function properly in colder temps or over time. Then, it's not just an issue of drain back but possibly one of bypass too.


The ADBV should have no bearing on if the filter goes into bypass or not.....


A nitrile combo valve combining the adbv and bypass function in one could well affect the bypass function as well. And while it should have no bearing in a separate adbv and bypass design, a deformed or compromised combo valve could affect both, such that filter doesn't go into bypass as designed.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: sayjac
Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Originally Posted By: sayjac
What it shows to me more than any possible significant restriction, is why a nitrile combo valve might not function properly in colder temps or over time. Then, it's not just an issue of drain back but possibly one of bypass too.


The ADBV should have no bearing on if the filter goes into bypass or not.....


A nitrile combo valve combining the adbv and bypass function in one could well affect the bypass function as well. And while it should have no bearing in a separate adbv and bypass design, a deformed or compromised combo valve could affect both, such that filter doesn't go into bypass as designed.


Agreed ... with the qualifier of "combo valve" - guess I missed that in your first post.

The normal ADBV design (as I assumed we were talking about) would have zero effect on if the filter goes into bypass mode or not.

That's why I don't like the combo ADBV/bypass valve design.

 

[cp3]

Well, I made sure I went out and listened when my Son started the Saturn this morning and I didn't hear anything to indicate that the filter had emptied out. I has a Baldwin with the nitrile ADBV on it now and there was no valve train noise.

So not really a big deal. As far as being a restriction at colder temperatures, as Itslimjim said, likely in bypass anyway on the G6 which has the bypass in the engine or more restriction from the ADBV would put into bypass. IF however, emphasized because I don't know if it would, the very cold stiffened ADBV restricted flow into the filter on the Saturn which has the bypass in the filter I could see that as a problem.

I agree, definitely don't like the idea of a combo valve after seeing this. In fact, the more I look at this the more I like the internal engine bypass.

 

[zyxelenator]

You can always repeat experiment in your fridge

 

[ltslimjim]

cp3, I think the story is that an oil filter utilizing a nitrile ADBV 'may' eventually stiffen over repeated heat cycles/extended exposure to the cold over the course of an oil change.

Probably not a problem in the summer at all, for most engines, but to me it's another app/real world specific experience.

 

[cp3]

Originally Posted By: ltslimjim
cp3, I think the story is that an oil filter utilizing a nitrile ADBV 'may' eventually stiffen over repeated heat cycles/extended exposure to the cold over the course of an oil change.

Probably not a problem in the summer at all, for most engines, but to me it's another app/real world specific experience.


Yep, I have to agree. There is clearly a pretty big difference between the two materials but does it really matter? As I said the Baldwin was ran for almost as long a OCI as the G6 gets and it wasn't stiff at all at room temp. Wasn't the hottest part of the year however like the K&N was. The Baldwin didn't seem to cause any extra issue on the Saturn in the cold either, granted I don't hear it start all the time.

Seems it's like most things we debate here and comes down to what makes you feel warm & fuzzy....lol, or your personal cost to feature ratio, value scale if you will. At this point, to me anyway, there really isn't a lot between the Baldwin & Wix and I'm interested to see the Tough Guard that is on there now.

 

[RF Overlord]

cp3, in addition to the factors you mentioned, I think some of it has to do with the engine's design. For instance, why does Ford continue to specify only silicone ADBVs for the FL820S and FL400S? If it really didn't matter to the motors those filters are installed on (or at least some of them), I have to believe Ford would authorise a nitrile ADBV in their Motorcraft filters...

 

[cp3]

Hmmmm...Good point! Are those the only Ford filters where a silicone ADBV is spec'd? Do those two filters cover a majority of their line?