It certainly looks that way in Japan.
A new ULTRA and it's GREEN !!
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Interesting.... If anyone is interested, here's what the first page says (according to google translator):
The next generation to inherit a beautiful environment.
Mobiritimeka is to expand our business globally, as a top runner in environmental performance, innovative technology developed by the early efforts to reduce CO2 now, hybrid cars, that is, the engine development effort aimed at improving environmental performance, I'm doing. In developing this new Insight Haiburiddoshisutemuenjin and also worked in earnest to improve the engine oil.
Honda engine has been designed to demonstrate the best performance, fuel-efficient low-viscosity oil. In other words, the environment-friendly ideas from the start, the engine has been developed. Is to demonstrate the most fuel-efficient performance of this unique, Honda oil is ultra-genuine. Among newly developed [Ultra Green] does use the new Insight Haiburiddoshisutemuenjin, many times repeated the test under extreme conditions, fuel efficiency, durability, quality 上Gemashita thoroughly polished. The result is the world's first successful commercialization of a new generation of fuel-efficient oil than the standard low-viscosity oil in the international standards.
[Ultra Green] to the naming of the Glory-of nature and yet you feel, clearly more than a generation, as the hall than anything else we can talk about oil and fuel economy, Honda they con to the responsibility of the tireless passion for the environment and the future of the Masu. We are ahead [Ultra Green], and are proud to be a new benchmark for fuel-efficient engine oils. Live as one global company and will strive to further the development of environmental products by further innovation.
The next generation to inherit a beautiful environment.
Mobiritimeka is to expand our business globally, as a top runner in environmental performance, innovative technology developed by the early efforts to reduce CO2 now, hybrid cars, that is, the engine development effort aimed at improving environmental performance, I'm doing. In developing this new Insight Haiburiddoshisutemuenjin and also worked in earnest to improve the engine oil.
Honda engine has been designed to demonstrate the best performance, fuel-efficient low-viscosity oil. In other words, the environment-friendly ideas from the start, the engine has been developed. Is to demonstrate the most fuel-efficient performance of this unique, Honda oil is ultra-genuine. Among newly developed [Ultra Green] does use the new Insight Haiburiddoshisutemuenjin, many times repeated the test under extreme conditions, fuel efficiency, durability, quality 上Gemashita thoroughly polished. The result is the world's first successful commercialization of a new generation of fuel-efficient oil than the standard low-viscosity oil in the international standards.
[Ultra Green] to the naming of the Glory-of nature and yet you feel, clearly more than a generation, as the hall than anything else we can talk about oil and fuel economy, Honda they con to the responsibility of the tireless passion for the environment and the future of the Masu. We are ahead [Ultra Green], and are proud to be a new benchmark for fuel-efficient engine oils. Live as one global company and will strive to further the development of environmental products by further innovation.
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Here in Florida, the reason for that is because bulk 10w30 is cheaper than bulk 5w30, so oil change places load up on that.
I believe the difference between 5w30 and 10w30 Formula Shell 55 gallon drums is more then 200 bucks........
Here in Florida, the reason for that is because bulk 10w30 is cheaper than bulk 5w30, so oil change places load up on that.
I believe the difference between 5w30 and 10w30 Formula Shell 55 gallon drums is more then 200 bucks........
Originally Posted By: sangyup81
Originally Posted By: PurplePride
Two camps in the US:
1) modern folks - thinner are normal.
2) old-skoolers - heavy oils is what they grew up with.
Tough to change #2. I'm one, and I've gone down one weight at a time!
Didn't hit 5w20 until my 46th birthday.
Might hit 0w20 before 49!
Problem is that most mechanics are #2 unwilling to go down below 5w30 and even then will try to get you to use 10w30 instead
I switched Mechanic when I saw the pallet of oil he has in the back are 100% 20w50. He either doesn't care and only buy discount or he is really old school.
Originally Posted By: PurplePride
Two camps in the US:
1) modern folks - thinner are normal.
2) old-skoolers - heavy oils is what they grew up with.
Tough to change #2. I'm one, and I've gone down one weight at a time!
Didn't hit 5w20 until my 46th birthday.
Might hit 0w20 before 49!
Problem is that most mechanics are #2 unwilling to go down below 5w30 and even then will try to get you to use 10w30 instead
I switched Mechanic when I saw the pallet of oil he has in the back are 100% 20w50. He either doesn't care and only buy discount or he is really old school.
Originally Posted By: Y_K
Prove me that lower viscosity provides better wear protection and I will switch..
Aside from being al gore green what other benefits does it provide?
On an engine not designed for it, it won't decrease wear. If your engine was originally spec'd for a 30wt a 10wt will not be able to fill the clearances once at operating temperatures leaving you with lower oil pressure and a weaker hydrodynamic barrier. Reason being your oil pump is a constant displacement type pump, with every revolution it will displace a predetermined amount of oil regardless of viscosity.
If your engine was built with 10wt oil in mind than using the 10wt will not cause any harm.
Prove me that lower viscosity provides better wear protection and I will switch..
Aside from being al gore green what other benefits does it provide?
On an engine not designed for it, it won't decrease wear. If your engine was originally spec'd for a 30wt a 10wt will not be able to fill the clearances once at operating temperatures leaving you with lower oil pressure and a weaker hydrodynamic barrier. Reason being your oil pump is a constant displacement type pump, with every revolution it will displace a predetermined amount of oil regardless of viscosity.
If your engine was built with 10wt oil in mind than using the 10wt will not cause any harm.
Originally Posted By: Y_K
Prove me that lower viscosity provides better wear protection and I will switch..
Aside from being al gore green what other benefits does it provide?
what kind of other proof do you need other then major manufactuers using it for a decade and millions of cars on the road motoring around just fine on 20wt........
I bet you were one of those people who flipped out when 5w30 came in as a 10w30 replacement (chuckle)
I don't see how a thinner oil could possibly be more "green"...... and I'm not one of these green movement people
also go check what kind of RACING OIL that MOBIL 1 produces.....
0w-20 and 0w-30
is there a more extreme case of oil useage and protection then 12 and 24 hour endurance racing and 500 mile nascar races at WOT from 7-9k rpm's? I've been to a Sebring ALMS race, those cars run extremely hard all day long, without skipping a beat.... if thats not proof that the oils in those cars don't offer protection, I don't know what is, those guys seem to trust it with their multi-million dollar budgets. I'd like to think they know more about engines and oil then you and I.
lets take a quote from their website..... not that I'm one to take everything from a manufactuer's mouth as the end all truth, there is no doubt Mobil 1 oils are used in a variety of racing series.......
"Mobil 1 Racing oil technology has been developed using our extensive experience in premier automotive racing series around the world, such as Formula 1, NASCAR, Le Mans, IRL, NHRA, Formula 3, SCCA GT, and ALMS. "
Prove me that lower viscosity provides better wear protection and I will switch..
Aside from being al gore green what other benefits does it provide?
what kind of other proof do you need other then major manufactuers using it for a decade and millions of cars on the road motoring around just fine on 20wt........
I bet you were one of those people who flipped out when 5w30 came in as a 10w30 replacement (chuckle)
I don't see how a thinner oil could possibly be more "green"...... and I'm not one of these green movement people
also go check what kind of RACING OIL that MOBIL 1 produces.....
0w-20 and 0w-30
is there a more extreme case of oil useage and protection then 12 and 24 hour endurance racing and 500 mile nascar races at WOT from 7-9k rpm's? I've been to a Sebring ALMS race, those cars run extremely hard all day long, without skipping a beat.... if thats not proof that the oils in those cars don't offer protection, I don't know what is, those guys seem to trust it with their multi-million dollar budgets. I'd like to think they know more about engines and oil then you and I.
lets take a quote from their website..... not that I'm one to take everything from a manufactuer's mouth as the end all truth, there is no doubt Mobil 1 oils are used in a variety of racing series.......
"Mobil 1 Racing oil technology has been developed using our extensive experience in premier automotive racing series around the world, such as Formula 1, NASCAR, Le Mans, IRL, NHRA, Formula 3, SCCA GT, and ALMS. "
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In order to have an intelligent conversation we could agree on some baselines and reference points. I am not bashing lower viscosity on the viscosity basis alone. I am asking to illustrate me benefits on statistically valid and scientifically correct evidence. As far as who I am and what is my background you have no clue yet talk a talk of many words.
I know my business case quite well. My workhorse is the modular v8 that was back specked to 5W20 by Ford due to CAFE pressure. That gimmick cuased many a taxi fleet to swap engines at around 360k miles instead of 650k miles that they used to enjoy. Increased overhead.
Change in lubricant properties without changing the dynamics of working environment accordingly may be positive, detrimental or negligible. Just give me the examples where it was good engineering with positive outcome. Not on specialized equipment like racing cars of course.
I know my business case quite well. My workhorse is the modular v8 that was back specked to 5W20 by Ford due to CAFE pressure. That gimmick cuased many a taxi fleet to swap engines at around 360k miles instead of 650k miles that they used to enjoy. Increased overhead.
Change in lubricant properties without changing the dynamics of working environment accordingly may be positive, detrimental or negligible. Just give me the examples where it was good engineering with positive outcome. Not on specialized equipment like racing cars of course.
Originally Posted By: Y_K
In order to have an intelligent conversation we could agree on some baselines and reference points. I am not bashing lower viscosity on the viscosity basis alone. I am asking to illustrate me benefits on statistically valid and scientifically correct evidence. As far as who I am and what is my background you have no clue yet talk a talk of many words.
I know my business case quite well. My workhorse is the modular v8 that was back specked to 5W20 by Ford due to CAFE pressure. That gimmick cuased many a taxi fleet to swap engines at around 360k miles instead of 650k miles that they used to enjoy. Increased overhead.
Change in lubricant properties without changing the dynamics of working environment accordingly may be positive, detrimental or negligible. Just give me the examples where it was good engineering with positive outcome. Not on specialized equipment like racing cars of course.
that could be argued all day, flip the tables around and give me one example that meets your requirements that states you NEED a thicker oil for your engine to survive........
lots of people can't take the fact that many cars run YEARS without problems due to modern day oils.... they all want some kind of magical scientific proof to make them feel better about themselves inside, but to the people who play that card, where is the proof thicker oils make it last longer? bottom line is nobody on here can answer either question in a definetive way that would make the world put this issue to rest.......
does a ow-20 protect your engine? ask the millions of the people on the road with it in their cars if the engine still runs everyday..... I think the answer is yes personally
why don't I use a 20 weight oil? I've thought of doing so honestly, especially considering my car only runs about 4 miles at a time in city streets, but I have an oil consumption problem, and the Mobil 1 0w-40 seems to burn off less then any other oil I have used in this car.... and that is a long list.... even better then a few 20w-50 oils.....
In order to have an intelligent conversation we could agree on some baselines and reference points. I am not bashing lower viscosity on the viscosity basis alone. I am asking to illustrate me benefits on statistically valid and scientifically correct evidence. As far as who I am and what is my background you have no clue yet talk a talk of many words.
I know my business case quite well. My workhorse is the modular v8 that was back specked to 5W20 by Ford due to CAFE pressure. That gimmick cuased many a taxi fleet to swap engines at around 360k miles instead of 650k miles that they used to enjoy. Increased overhead.
Change in lubricant properties without changing the dynamics of working environment accordingly may be positive, detrimental or negligible. Just give me the examples where it was good engineering with positive outcome. Not on specialized equipment like racing cars of course.
that could be argued all day, flip the tables around and give me one example that meets your requirements that states you NEED a thicker oil for your engine to survive........
lots of people can't take the fact that many cars run YEARS without problems due to modern day oils.... they all want some kind of magical scientific proof to make them feel better about themselves inside, but to the people who play that card, where is the proof thicker oils make it last longer? bottom line is nobody on here can answer either question in a definetive way that would make the world put this issue to rest.......
does a ow-20 protect your engine? ask the millions of the people on the road with it in their cars if the engine still runs everyday..... I think the answer is yes personally
why don't I use a 20 weight oil? I've thought of doing so honestly, especially considering my car only runs about 4 miles at a time in city streets, but I have an oil consumption problem, and the Mobil 1 0w-40 seems to burn off less then any other oil I have used in this car.... and that is a long list.... even better then a few 20w-50 oils.....
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Originally Posted By: prax
What's the 40C and 100C cSt? HTHS?
Don't know, but an educated guess based on the viscosity graph in the link would be a 100C vis' around 6 cSt, 40C vis' of 26 cSt, HTHS vis' of 2.4 -2.5 cP and NOACK of 14%.
Now if you really want to know for sure I'd suggest befriending someone at your local Honda dealer and pulling an oil sample from a new Honda Insight and getting it analysed.
What's the 40C and 100C cSt? HTHS?
Don't know, but an educated guess based on the viscosity graph in the link would be a 100C vis' around 6 cSt, 40C vis' of 26 cSt, HTHS vis' of 2.4 -2.5 cP and NOACK of 14%.
Now if you really want to know for sure I'd suggest befriending someone at your local Honda dealer and pulling an oil sample from a new Honda Insight and getting it analysed.
I was waiting for someone to pick up on that, but my hunch is that this oils 100C vis' won't be below 6.0 cSt. Besides if the HTHS vis isn't at least 2.6 cP you can't call the oil a 20wt so by default it becomes a 10wt.
Case in point. RP's XPR 0W-10 has a 100C vis of 6.5 cSt.
Case in point. RP's XPR 0W-10 has a 100C vis of 6.5 cSt.
Originally Posted By: Y_K
Prove me that lower viscosity provides better wear protection and I will switch..
Aside from being al gore green what other benefits does it provide?
no offense and not trying to be smart, but where have you been the last ten years? this has been discussed so much it's realy getting old. lighter oils in the correct applications are well proven by this time.
Prove me that lower viscosity provides better wear protection and I will switch..
Aside from being al gore green what other benefits does it provide?
no offense and not trying to be smart, but where have you been the last ten years? this has been discussed so much it's realy getting old. lighter oils in the correct applications are well proven by this time.
A lot of yaking and no data. There are still the laws of physics and the lower weight lubricant is going to provide less load protection (controlled mass deceleration) in the rod big ends and piston-to-wall zonce where there are high forces at high rpm and/or loads. Are we going to see Roller Cranks soon? A hot SAE 10 is virtually near water vicosity. I hate clattery engines.
Assuming a conservatively low 10wt 100C vis of 5.0 cSt and water's viscosity of 1 cSt it looks like you're off by a factor of 500%.
Gary Allen is running the "Bruce blend" 0W-10 in his Jeep (there's an excellent UOA posted) and his engine is perfectly quite by all accounts.
Gary Allen is running the "Bruce blend" 0W-10 in his Jeep (there's an excellent UOA posted) and his engine is perfectly quite by all accounts.
Originally Posted By: bradepb
Originally Posted By: Y_K
Prove me that lower viscosity provides better wear protection and I will switch..
Aside from being al gore green what other benefits does it provide?
no offense and not trying to be smart, but where have you been the last ten years? this has been discussed so much it's realy getting old. lighter oils in the correct applications are well proven by this time.
+1 Every so often this dead horse comes back from the grave and starts galloping again. Lighter oils used in engines spec'd for them are working just fine.
Originally Posted By: Y_K
Prove me that lower viscosity provides better wear protection and I will switch..
Aside from being al gore green what other benefits does it provide?
no offense and not trying to be smart, but where have you been the last ten years? this has been discussed so much it's realy getting old. lighter oils in the correct applications are well proven by this time.
+1 Every so often this dead horse comes back from the grave and starts galloping again. Lighter oils used in engines spec'd for them are working just fine.
When you start running over 100k miles in less than a year for a few years in a row you will be well qualified to be the arbiter.
'just fine' for those applications does not cut it. I would not mind to have a nice air cooled engine that is as durable and reliable so I would not have to waste my time on this argument. I was not applying my argument universally btw
'just fine' for those applications does not cut it. I would not mind to have a nice air cooled engine that is as durable and reliable so I would not have to waste my time on this argument. I was not applying my argument universally btw
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Assuming a conservatively low 10wt 100C vis of 5.0 cSt and water's viscosity of 1 cSt it looks like you're off by a factor of 500%.
Gary Allen is running the "Bruce blend" 0W-10 in his Jeep (there's an excellent UOA posted) and his engine is perfectly quite by all accounts.
Yes 5 is 5 x 1! Weee! A 5 cst is still near non-viscous in a plain bearing and wil rely on boundary lube and pressure lube - without a viscosity margin to keep the bearng alive. If engineers can design an engine to last 150K miles under all anticipated stresses and run reasonably quiet - then let them have at it. Bearing are typ clearanced to 0.0005 - 0.0010 currently, I cannot see the capability to tighten this production tolerance currently; a improved oil pump and oiling scheme with its attendant higher inherent losses would have to be employed.
- AFA back spec'ing to thin oils, My Yaris sounds like a bucket of bolts with a thin SAE 30 with <3.0 HTHS - it couldnt tolerate anything lighter unles you kept the rpm under 3000. Note this is an underquare, compact engine, easy to lubricate with special offset piston pin cL to reduce slap.
Assuming a conservatively low 10wt 100C vis of 5.0 cSt and water's viscosity of 1 cSt it looks like you're off by a factor of 500%.
Gary Allen is running the "Bruce blend" 0W-10 in his Jeep (there's an excellent UOA posted) and his engine is perfectly quite by all accounts.
Yes 5 is 5 x 1! Weee! A 5 cst is still near non-viscous in a plain bearing and wil rely on boundary lube and pressure lube - without a viscosity margin to keep the bearng alive. If engineers can design an engine to last 150K miles under all anticipated stresses and run reasonably quiet - then let them have at it. Bearing are typ clearanced to 0.0005 - 0.0010 currently, I cannot see the capability to tighten this production tolerance currently; a improved oil pump and oiling scheme with its attendant higher inherent losses would have to be employed.
- AFA back spec'ing to thin oils, My Yaris sounds like a bucket of bolts with a thin SAE 30 with <3.0 HTHS - it couldnt tolerate anything lighter unles you kept the rpm under 3000. Note this is an underquare, compact engine, easy to lubricate with special offset piston pin cL to reduce slap.
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Originally Posted By: Y_K
When you start running over 100k miles in less than a year for a few years in a row you will be well qualified to be the arbiter.
'just fine' for those applications does not cut it. I would not mind to have a nice air cooled engine that is as durable and reliable so I would not have to waste my time on this argument. I was not applying my argument universally btw
Have you driven that many miles a few years in a row? What qualifications are required to post on this board? I would think the engineers that designed these engines and spec'd oil for them did the testing. The argument is old. God only knows how many Ford Crown Vics are in severe service use with 300,000+ miles running 20 grade oils with no issues at all. That is one car, Ford and Honda have been using these oils for years now. I find using what the mfg suggests seems to be working, 'just fine' in fact. Seems Gary Allan had no problems with 0W10 oil to report. Dr. Haas is running thinner than spec oils in cars worth as much as a some of our homes, no problems as of yet.
As far as air cooled engines, the only ones I own are on mowers, a power washer, and snow blower. I use what the mfg suggests for them too, no problems to report.
When you start running over 100k miles in less than a year for a few years in a row you will be well qualified to be the arbiter.
'just fine' for those applications does not cut it. I would not mind to have a nice air cooled engine that is as durable and reliable so I would not have to waste my time on this argument. I was not applying my argument universally btw
Have you driven that many miles a few years in a row? What qualifications are required to post on this board? I would think the engineers that designed these engines and spec'd oil for them did the testing. The argument is old. God only knows how many Ford Crown Vics are in severe service use with 300,000+ miles running 20 grade oils with no issues at all. That is one car, Ford and Honda have been using these oils for years now. I find using what the mfg suggests seems to be working, 'just fine' in fact. Seems Gary Allan had no problems with 0W10 oil to report. Dr. Haas is running thinner than spec oils in cars worth as much as a some of our homes, no problems as of yet.
As far as air cooled engines, the only ones I own are on mowers, a power washer, and snow blower. I use what the mfg suggests for them too, no problems to report.
Originally Posted By: ARCOgraphite
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Assuming a conservatively low 10wt 100C vis of 5.0 cSt and water's viscosity of 1 cSt it looks like you're off by a factor of 500%.
Gary Allen is running the "Bruce blend" 0W-10 in his Jeep (there's an excellent UOA posted) and his engine is perfectly quite by all accounts.
Yes 5 is 5 x 1! Weee! A 5 cst is still near non-viscous in a plain bearing and wil rely on boundary lube and pressure lube - without a viscosity margin to keep the bearng alive. If engineers can design an engine to last 150K miles under all anticipated stresses and run reasonably quiet - then let them have at it. Bearing are typ clearanced to 0.0005 - 0.0010 currently, I cannot see the capability to tighten this production tolerance currently; a improved oil pump and oiling scheme with its attendant higher inherent losses would have to be employed.
- AFA back spec'ing to thin oils, My Yaris sounds like a bucket of bolts with a thin SAE 30 with div>
Most modern cars with reasonably tight bearing clearances can easily run a 5 cSt oil with little chance of bearing wiping.
The Bruce Blend 0W-10 that Gary's running is just one example.
Anybody who tracks their car with a 30wt oil and gets the oil temp up to 280-300F is likely going to see 5 cSt oil.
5wt and 10wt race qualifying oil will see oil in the 4-5 cSt range by design with oil temps limited to 180F.
Regarding your Yaris, and hyperbole aside, the higher the rev's the more appropriate a light oil is. It is usually high load at low rev's (lugging) that increases the viscosity demands of an engine.
And correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the current spec' oil for your Yaris is the Toyota Brand 0W-20.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Assuming a conservatively low 10wt 100C vis of 5.0 cSt and water's viscosity of 1 cSt it looks like you're off by a factor of 500%.
Gary Allen is running the "Bruce blend" 0W-10 in his Jeep (there's an excellent UOA posted) and his engine is perfectly quite by all accounts.
Yes 5 is 5 x 1! Weee! A 5 cst is still near non-viscous in a plain bearing and wil rely on boundary lube and pressure lube - without a viscosity margin to keep the bearng alive. If engineers can design an engine to last 150K miles under all anticipated stresses and run reasonably quiet - then let them have at it. Bearing are typ clearanced to 0.0005 - 0.0010 currently, I cannot see the capability to tighten this production tolerance currently; a improved oil pump and oiling scheme with its attendant higher inherent losses would have to be employed.
- AFA back spec'ing to thin oils, My Yaris sounds like a bucket of bolts with a thin SAE 30 with div>
Most modern cars with reasonably tight bearing clearances can easily run a 5 cSt oil with little chance of bearing wiping.
The Bruce Blend 0W-10 that Gary's running is just one example.
Anybody who tracks their car with a 30wt oil and gets the oil temp up to 280-300F is likely going to see 5 cSt oil.
5wt and 10wt race qualifying oil will see oil in the 4-5 cSt range by design with oil temps limited to 180F.
Regarding your Yaris, and hyperbole aside, the higher the rev's the more appropriate a light oil is. It is usually high load at low rev's (lugging) that increases the viscosity demands of an engine.
And correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the current spec' oil for your Yaris is the Toyota Brand 0W-20.
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