'98 Camaro LS3 oil choice

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: JimMueller
Yes, I'm on FRRAX and I go by the same ID (I recognize yours also). The original Katech pump I bought (KAT-A2390) had the stuck relieve valve in September 2010, and I replaced it with another A2390 about a week later. I haven't researched alternative pumps if I were to do it over again. But FWIW, I used that same model on two separate LS1 builds without any issues.

The replacement pump hasn't had any known issues since it was installed (unless the twitchy OEM gauge is related). But at the same time the oil pressure was twitchy my other gauges were as well, and it was related to a bad power cable near the firewall. After we fixed the power cable & I replaced the OPSU, only the OP gauge is still acting twitchy.

I highly doubt I'll ever take this motor open tracking because of the sweeping lefthand G issue with the oil puddling in the heads. Not real interested in buying an Aviaid or similar dry sump system to remedy that issue; I've read that others have the same Improved Racing pump I have with an Accusump and their pressure still drops 20PSI in such turns. As such, not terribly interested in adding more gauges to the interior. I do have an older thread on FFRAX regarding fluid temps where we ended up discussing oil cooler components with Alan.

I'm mostly looking for what's best for my driving conditions which won't cause reliability issues and won't hurt fuel economy. Since I don't have the factory temp & pressure gauges nor warranty concerns, just seeing which brands and viscosities I should consider. I'm not against mail ordering Redline though.


OK, I thought the name looked familiar.

Now I have to consider the Katech unit as well (even though I am leaning towards the Schumann Sportsman unit currently).

Yes, the aftermarket LSx dry sump systems can get OUT OF CONTROL price-wise VERY quickly!!

I am told that an A.R.E. dry sump conversion (over the stock d.s. system) on an LS7 C6 Z06 runs upwards of $10K!!! YIKES!

Another consideration for (less expensive, no shipping) off the shelf/Sino-Mart oil is to get 5 qts. of M1 0W-40, and 'thicken it up' with 2 qts. of their 15W-50.

 

[aquariuscsm]

I was talking to a guy that had a WS-6 and he used M1 15W50.

 

[JimMueller]

So the listed options for street driving are below.

M1 0/40 (x2)
M1 5/30 (x2)
RL 0/40
RL 5/20
PU 0/40
Joe Gibbs LS30

Tried calling Joe Gibbs but I think they are closed on the weekend. Found this thread:

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-z06-discussion/3065055-joe-gibbs-ls30-motor-oil.html

...and the guy from JG said M1 0W40 is the best from M1, and he also recommended RL & LS30 (obviously). I guess I'll try the M1 0W40 since it's available locally.

 

[Torrid]

Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
I was talking to a guy that had a WS-6 and he used M1 15W50.


I would have thought M1 15w-50 would be more widely used in LSX motors the way Lingenfelter recommends it. They recommend it even for stock motors. I'm not saying I agree with using oil that thick in mine, but it isn't a bad choice. I think 0w-40 is a better overall option though.

 

[jegs]

Your bearing clearances are within stock specs for that engine so any stock 5W30 oil will be fine.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: Torrid
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
I was talking to a guy that had a WS-6 and he used M1 15W50.


I would have thought M1 15w-50 would be more widely used in LSX motors the way Lingenfelter recommends it. They recommend it even for stock motors. I'm not saying I agree with using oil that thick in mine, but it isn't a bad choice. I think 0w-40 is a better overall option though.


^^^I agree.

The ONLY time I would use straight M1 15W-50 would be an extended open track/road racing/open road race scenario in extreme south Tejas/Arizona type weather/climate.

 

[JimMueller]

Breaking out the defibrillator.

I rebuilt this motor as a 418 LS3 a few months ago, and I'm still changing the oil fairly frequently. After the break-in oil was dumped, I used two flushes of Valvoline Daily Protection 10W40, and I'm trying Pennzoil Yellow Bottle 5W30 on the next flush tomorrow. Oil-related items that were changed during the rebuild:

New, later model OEM oil pan which changed the filter threads
K&N 1017 filter
New Katech oil pump, same model, ported but not high flow
bearing clearances are still within factory tolerances
Manton .040" restricted pushrods
Johnson short travel, axle-oiling lifters
Kept the same oil pan baffle
Billet barbell restrictor to further reduce unfiltered oil from reaching the bottom end
Added a crank scraper

The engine builder didn't have a good opinion of Mobil 1 oils, but liked Valvoline, Pennzoil & Amsoil. Application of the car hasn't changed from previous posts. The dash gauge oil pressure is a little lower overall than the prior engine (when it was heathy), around 40psi cold startup, around 25psi at hot idle, around 30-40psi when cruising, haven't really watched PSI the few times I've went WOT. Builder verified gauge pressure against mechanical oil pressure gauge before releasing the car to me. There are theories that the pressure is lower because of the slightly larger lifter-to-bore clearance (.0003-.0005 looser per lifter), the anti-pump-up design of the lifter, lifters allowing better flow through the pushrods (but mine are restricted), etc.

For dino oils, should I consider something different than what I've used so far? What would I want my WOT oil pressure to be, and if it isn't that high, should I be using thicker oil? Is the rule of thumb of 10PSI per 1000RPM still valid?

 

[ka9mnx]

PYB 10w-30 if you like Pennzoil. Any 10w-30 conv should work well (even ST).
Yes, the 10/1000 is still valid to my knowledge.
Your oil pressure is fine.

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted by JimMueller
Breaking out the defibrillator.

I rebuilt this motor as a 418 LS3 a few months ago, and I'm still changing the oil fairly frequently. After the break-in oil was dumped, I used two flushes of Valvoline Daily Protection 10W40, and I'm trying Pennzoil Yellow Bottle 5W30 on the next flush tomorrow. Oil-related items that were changed during the rebuild:

New, later model OEM oil pan which changed the filter threads
K&N 1017 filter
New Katech oil pump, same model, ported but not high flow
bearing clearances are still within factory tolerances
Manton .040" restricted pushrods
Johnson short travel, axle-oiling lifters
Kept the same oil pan baffle
Billet barbell restrictor to further reduce unfiltered oil from reaching the bottom end
Added a crank scraper

The engine builder didn't have a good opinion of Mobil 1 oils, but liked Valvoline, Pennzoil & Amsoil. Application of the car hasn't changed from previous posts. The dash gauge oil pressure is a little lower overall than the prior engine (when it was heathy), around 40psi cold startup, around 25psi at hot idle, around 30-40psi when cruising, haven't really watched PSI the few times I've went WOT. Builder verified gauge pressure against mechanical oil pressure gauge before releasing the car to me. There are theories that the pressure is lower because of the slightly larger lifter-to-bore clearance (.0003-.0005 looser per lifter), the anti-pump-up design of the lifter, lifters allowing better flow through the pushrods (but mine are restricted), etc.

For dino oils, should I consider something different than what I've used so far? What would I want my WOT oil pressure to be, and if it isn't that high, should I be using thicker oil? Is the rule of thumb of 10PSI per 1000RPM still valid?


How is the oil pressure of the new engine different from the old one? (I'm assuming its less, because you're breaking out the defibrillator.) But how much less?
Out of the changes you have listed, I would guess that the lifter to bore clearance may be larger than before. Are there measurements available to compare the old clearances to the new?

 

[JimMueller]

The old motor was close to 40psi all the time when it was healthy and warmed up. I asked the shop to verify the lifter to bore clearance prior to the lifter installation but I never received that information. The old LS7 lifters we took out were not seized but they didn't fall out either; I think there was pitting on some of the old cam lobes and old lifter wheels. Others using the same Johnson lifters as I am report similar changes in the oil pressure. I guess I just wanted to confirm that I didn't need to use a different oil to compensate for the changes in the oil pressures.

The PYB 5W-30 that I just put in today is too thin? I chose their 5W-30 over their 10W-30 because the 5W-30 has a higher VI rating.

 

[ka9mnx]

Originally Posted by JimMueller
The PYB 5W-30 that I just put in today is too thin? I chose their 5W-30 over their 10W-30 because the 5W-30 has a higher VI rating.

No. 5w-30 is fine and usually DOES carry better specs that 10w-30.

 

[JimMueller]

I installed some AEM oil gauges a few weeks ago, about 21K miles on the engine since it was built in 2019. I ran Redline 10W30 for awhile and then switched to Redline 5W30 a few years ago. The engine uses some oil, I don't really track the loss but check it regularly and top it off as needed. The PCV system isn't working as well as desired, the dipstick handle slightly pops out of the tube. The aftermarket oil temp & psi senders are near the oil filter, the instrument cluster oil pressure pickup is the OEM location behind the intake manifold. Oil temp is generally 230-240*F once warmed up and cruising on interstate, I've seen a peak of 270'ish after a few exhibitions of speed on the interstate. Aftermarket oil pressure is generally 40-50psi in Florida 'cold' starts; after it warms up, idle is generally in the upper teens to low 20's, and lowest I've seen it get at hot idle (800RPM) is about 14psi. Oil pressure does rise with RPMs, but it doesn't get high enough to match the "6-10PSI per 1000RPM" recommendation throughout the entire range (7000RPM peak). That recommendation translates to 42-70psi hot at WOT at 7000RPM, and nothing I've read indicates 40-50psi at 7000RPM benefits engine longevity. The behavior of the oil pressure has not changed since the engine was built; the only minor change came after I had to reseat the OEM oil pressure needle on the cluster and didn't get it exactly in the original position.

The OEM oil pressure gauge reads somewhat close to the aftermarket gauge. ACDelco/Delphi has discontinued the 2-pin oil pressure sender for my vehicle, and I've found it difficult to locate another reliable brand. It's difficult to monitor oil pressure during WOT, I suppose I could gradually set the aftermarket gauge alarm higher to see where it triggers.

I see resellers listing these Johnson lifters as dropping the oil pressure 10-15psi, similar to oil squirter behavior. I didn't realize that when the engine was built. Main & rod bearing clearances are within OEM tolerances. I'm considering buying a Melling or Shuman oil pump to raise the oil pressure. Vern Shuman also recommended swapping to a rectangular oil pickup screen instead of the round screen, and ensuring the pickup is 3/8-1/2" from the bottom of the pan. The Schuman comes with a few different bypass springs to select the desired oil pressure, I presume whatever pressure that spring is supposed to provide, I need to subtract 10-15psi to estimate what I'll actually see. For example, if I install the 85psi spring, then I'll likely see bypass around 70psi... 65psi would be 50psi, etc. If that is correct, then it appears I'd want the 85psi spring. It's a hassle to R&R the spring, so I'd like to get it correct the first time.

I'm a bit nervous about the oil temp being at 270 with a few long blasts on the interstate. I'm not worried about 270 with Redline, but I am worried about how much hotter it would get during 20-minute sessions at a track day. If I'm reading correctly, I could change to RL 5W40 or 10W40 for more protection at higher temps, but the 40 series will also slightly raise pressure (also desirable) and temp (which I'm trying to lower). I guess that means an oil cooler is in my future, then after that is installed, continue to monitor temps and revisit the oil blend.

Any feedback is welcome.

 

[JimMueller]

Now that we're in the summer months, not much has changed. Letting the car sit overnight, 'cold' oil pressure starts out in the upper 30s or low 40s and hot idle has generally been 12-16psi. About 23K on the engine built in May 2019. Oil pressure behavior has been consistent through its life. Oil loss has varied with the catch can style and tube routing. Dipstick popping out of tube is relatively new, perhaps in the past 6-12mos.

Still going through RL 5W-30 oil, not measuring the rate. Oil dipstick is regularly pushed slightly out of the tube, but no oil residue in that vicinity. Slight oil leak from the aftermarket 2-piece timing cover upper seal. No other visible oil leaks, no oil residue in the exhaust tips. I don't go WOT much right now to check for smoke because my FP sometimes overpowers my FPR. That's on the to-do list.

The last leak down test... all leaks were from the oil fill tube, reported values were 3-20%. Catch can collects just a little oil. Compression test was also in 2019, values were 205-215 dry and 215-235 wet on 7 cylinders. Cyl 6 was 240/270 but we assume it was related to carbon buildup.

I bought a 6pk of HPL No VII Euro 5W-30, might it help with any undesirable behaviors over the RL 5W30 with XG10060 filter I've been refilling with for a few years? Make it a running OC or a complete OC?

 

[JimMueller]

I'm curious about the risk of damaging the engine at HPDE 20-minute sessions with what appears to be undesirable readings and consumption. I tripped over another thread, that I can't locate now, an opinion that blindly wanting 40-60psi under abusive conditions is not as critical as ensuring there is enough flow. HPDEs would be multiple 20min sessions in a single day, I'm concerned if the consumption would be so huge that the level would get too low within a single session.

I started using HPL Euro No VII 5W-30 last year and continue to use it. As alluded to before, I never monitored the frequency of adding oil... I kept topping it off, when it gets black 'enough' then I perform a complete change, at least 2x a year (6-7K mi/yr). I last performed an OC on March 30 using that oil with new Fram XG10060, with 227564mi on the chassis (about 28K on the engine). I filled a Blackstone container with new oil and put the rest of the 6qts into the engine. At 227942mi, it was down 1qt, so I added another quart. I have not sent any oil for analysis yet.

I have an acquaintance in VA with the same car and similar engine and application, and he uses the following UOA service. I reached out to them about a UOA to try to troubleshoot consumption. If it shows the rings, then it is what it is and whether I can still abuse it is unknown to me. If it doesn't show the rings, then I'll have the valve seals replaced.

Racers Oil Analysis

Don't ask the internet which oil to use, send your oil to the expert at Racer's Oil Analysis Resource. Important: Select "Initial Double Sample Kit" if you're new to our service, are using new oil, or sampling from a new engine/car. Select "Follow-up Single Sample Kit" if all of the following...

robertson-racing.com

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Oil consumption is usually one of two places, past the rings or past the valve seats/seals. Blowing past the rings can usually be seen with higher amounts of chromium and iron as the fit is sloppy and creating wear. Valve seats/seals are a little harder because it’s not a high wear area. At the very least we can possibly eliminate one of those two.

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The oil dipstick tube was slightly rubbing on a rubber line, so I slightly bent the top of the dipstick tube and, for better or worse, the dipstick no longer pops out of the tube. I have a really small oil leak at my front cover, but no other symptoms of leakage. Although my rear window tint is set to the legal maximum, I haven't noticed any smoke screen. The 25yr-old OEM PCV system had a tube between the throttle body and right valve cover, with an inline metal PCV check valve. I've not used a solution with that integrated check valve in close to 20yrs. The clean side PCV routing goes from throttle body to passenger valve cover, but I notice a little oil on the outside of that valve cover nipple, maybe I need a clean side filter also. The dirty side routing goes valley cover outlet > catch can > intake manifold neck. Very little oil accumulating in the catch can over months. Maybe my 3/8" PCV fittings/hoses need to be larger.

On another forum, there is a user named "Polyalphaolefin" who was last online in 2023, which matches the name of a user here that hasn't been online since 2022. Some old feedback from him since I can't seem to find him anymore as him if my consumption is a concern, any additional thoughts?

I don't fret at 14 psi at hot idle nor 40 psi at 7000 rpm. You have enough pressure to get the job done. The oil temp doesn't bother me either, especially with Red Line HP 5W-30. That oil is right at home at that temperature. High Performance Lubricants No VII Euro 5W-30 is up there with Red Line HP 5W-30, slightly better in some areas, and it reaches peak coefficient of friction at 300°F. Oils like that are designed to work in that kind of heat.

What I recommend, and something I'd do anyway, is install a remote oil filter mount for a larger Ford FL1A / XG8 sized filter. Place it somewhere it'll see good air flow. That'll help cool the oil some and the larger filter will improve filtration efficiency.
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HPL's oils contain both ester and alkylated naphthalene (AN) which both have strong cleaning ability. Red Line HP series also contains a good bit of ester and tends to run clean so I doubt there will be much, if anything, to clean. Don't use any engine flushes or other supplements with that oil as they will only hurt the performance. Flushes should be avoided in general. Most of them are just alcohol in some pale oil sold for a massive profit.
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I should say that I don't fret at 14 psi if that's typical or expected of the oiling system for that particular engine. If it's a new build, a little wider clearance, more bleed from the valvetrain, etc... and pressure is in that range on startup, no big deal. It's plenty of pressure. If the engine initially had say 40 psi at hot idle and suddenly dropped to 14 psi with no other changes, then it is a concern.

My LT1, for example, gets 0W-12 oil and has just 7-8 psi at 200°F oil temp. It sees just 30-35 psi at 6500-6800 rpm, but that's expected given the clearance and really light oil. It's all relative.

GM minimum pressure is 5.5 psi @ 1000 rpm, 18 psi @ 2000 rpm, and 24 psi @ 4000 rpm. Ford's findings are very similar, same with FCA and many foreign brands. The reason most cars have much more than that from the factory is usually a matter of cost and convenience, as well as accounting for mistakes on the user end. A lot of things from the OEM are done due to cost cutting measures or simply a matter of convenience. Oil pumps are no different, but the main reason a factory pump may produce 40 psi of oil pressure at hot idle is because the size of the pump was chosen around other factors. Aeration / cavitation is the main reason, but also at times due to it being simply cheaper to mass produce the oversized pumps than to have smaller ones made.

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* The oil pressure patterns have not changed since the engine was built in 2019. The lower than stock pressures are expected with my Johnson axle-oiling lifters. But do I need to compensate for that pressure drop with another change, such as a different oil pump?
* Over the FL 'winter' I've seen cold pressure be in the upper 40s/low 50s
* The hottest idle psi (generally after a WOT blast) being (~12psi on aftermarket gauge with sensor near oil filter, ~20psi from OEM dash gauge with OEM sensor behind intake manifold)
* Oil pressure climbs with RPMs, but I haven't monitored peak PSI at hot WOT.
* My aftermarket oil temp gauge lost connection with the temp sensor, so the sensor has not worked since I was using Redline 5W30. Redline oil temp was generally 230-240*F once warmed up and cruising on interstate, and peak at 270'ish after a few exhibitions of speed on the interstate.
* I've read some concerns that HPDE might want higher HTHS. This HPL is rated at 3.5, is that adequately high?