a little C-4 will take care of that problem. LOL
90 year old leaking sewer pipe - replacement
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JHZR2
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Yeah doing the entire straight run. Im not excavating to connect to the exterior (clay?) pipe.
I'm going to leave the final bell so that I can get a pro to put in a PVC caulk joint and lead it in with fresh oakum. That's outside of my capability. But it will leave me with a complete horizontal run in long, straight PVC, with wyes at the basement sink as it is now in CI.
One section is under a block of concrete, and a sledge with cold chisel just isn't fast. So I'm off to the HD to rent the chain cutter and electric jackhammer.
I'm going to leave the final bell so that I can get a pro to put in a PVC caulk joint and lead it in with fresh oakum. That's outside of my capability. But it will leave me with a complete horizontal run in long, straight PVC, with wyes at the basement sink as it is now in CI.
One section is under a block of concrete, and a sledge with cold chisel just isn't fast. So I'm off to the HD to rent the chain cutter and electric jackhammer.
Originally Posted By: JTK
On my last home I used my grinder to cut out a section of cast iron drain pipe. Went through like butter and left a nice straight cut. Unfortunately with extremely sharp edges that I cut my hand on. @#$!
I then used some nice thick Fernco couplers to tie in the plastic.
andyd, just the word orangeburg throws me into Tourette Syndrome fits. Love to give the engineer who came up with that a solid D-slap.
Heh heh. After 50 yrs or so, water gets in between the layers and turns it to mush. Roots go right through it easier than hard pan. The only problem with PVC is the toxic fumes from gluing it or if it catches fire. I laid up many a cesspool when I was just out of school. We did a pit at the homestead about 1970, and used orangeburg., 20 yrs later we dug up the line because it was clogged with roots. Sched 40 4 inch PVC for the win.
On my last home I used my grinder to cut out a section of cast iron drain pipe. Went through like butter and left a nice straight cut. Unfortunately with extremely sharp edges that I cut my hand on. @#$!
I then used some nice thick Fernco couplers to tie in the plastic.
andyd, just the word orangeburg throws me into Tourette Syndrome fits. Love to give the engineer who came up with that a solid D-slap.
Heh heh. After 50 yrs or so, water gets in between the layers and turns it to mush. Roots go right through it easier than hard pan. The only problem with PVC is the toxic fumes from gluing it or if it catches fire. I laid up many a cesspool when I was just out of school. We did a pit at the homestead about 1970, and used orangeburg., 20 yrs later we dug up the line because it was clogged with roots. Sched 40 4 inch PVC for the win.
Do you regret not buying a newer house ?
JHZR2
Staff member
Originally Posted By: LT4 Vette
Do you regret not buying a newer house ?
Not in the slightest. All homes need repair and upkeep, and a 90 or so year run on an iron pipe is pretty darn good.
And given the shoddy quality of a lot of the newer stuff, I'm happy to live in an older place.
$116 worth of pipe, a few tools and a few hours of time doesn't end the world. Some of the expenditures ive seen to correct errors in new construction are obscene.
Do you regret not buying a newer house ?
Not in the slightest. All homes need repair and upkeep, and a 90 or so year run on an iron pipe is pretty darn good.
And given the shoddy quality of a lot of the newer stuff, I'm happy to live in an older place.
$116 worth of pipe, a few tools and a few hours of time doesn't end the world. Some of the expenditures ive seen to correct errors in new construction are obscene.
Regarding the chain cutter, on old, worn out pipe like the piece you want to replace, the chain may crush the pipe rather than cutting it, so I would still use a grinder or sawzall to make any "mission critical" cuts.
JHZR2
Staff member
Originally Posted By: Stelth
Regarding the chain cutter, on old, worn out pipe like the piece you want to replace, the chain may crush the pipe rather than cutting it, so I would still use a grinder or sawzall to make any "mission critical" cuts.
I practiced on some sections where it didnt matter, and did crush the underside of a couple.
The one that did matter, I went very slowly, and we cut and cut on it, and didnt get very far. It was VERY slow, slower than Id expect a tubing cutter to work. The pipe was only 1" from the wall, so arc was an issue, but we still rolled at least 120 deg around on the pipe.
We got maybe halfway through and it just wasnt progressing well. Maybe I didnt oil it up enough, but it was kind of seizing in place, and I feared crushing the pipe.
So I took a diamond grit blade on the sawzall and finished it smooth.
This is what we had:
Ill put a photo of the cut pipe later if I remember...
Sawzall worked OK.
Went to lowes to get shielded no-hub connectors and all were Chinese. So I had to make a separate trip to HD to get US made parts. Lowes didnt have a proper test tee either (??!?!??). I had a Lowes gift card or three, otherwise I probably would have just shopped at HD anyway.
Now I need to figure out if I want to add a laundry standpipe by a separate wye from my sink. The sink just has a wye, here it is with an old lead trap (have since changed that).
But obviously does not have a vent. All drains in the house work fast, quiet and absolutely perfect. No drainage issues whatsoever... But in searching and reading, it seems like vents are so important. For our piping run, the only vent comes off of the main stack that goes upstairs.
FWIW.
So not sure if adding a laundry standpipe just downstream of the sink is a good or bad idea... Since status quo works perfectly...
Regarding the chain cutter, on old, worn out pipe like the piece you want to replace, the chain may crush the pipe rather than cutting it, so I would still use a grinder or sawzall to make any "mission critical" cuts.
I practiced on some sections where it didnt matter, and did crush the underside of a couple.
The one that did matter, I went very slowly, and we cut and cut on it, and didnt get very far. It was VERY slow, slower than Id expect a tubing cutter to work. The pipe was only 1" from the wall, so arc was an issue, but we still rolled at least 120 deg around on the pipe.
We got maybe halfway through and it just wasnt progressing well. Maybe I didnt oil it up enough, but it was kind of seizing in place, and I feared crushing the pipe.
So I took a diamond grit blade on the sawzall and finished it smooth.
This is what we had:
Ill put a photo of the cut pipe later if I remember...
Sawzall worked OK.
Went to lowes to get shielded no-hub connectors and all were Chinese. So I had to make a separate trip to HD to get US made parts. Lowes didnt have a proper test tee either (??!?!??). I had a Lowes gift card or three, otherwise I probably would have just shopped at HD anyway.
Now I need to figure out if I want to add a laundry standpipe by a separate wye from my sink. The sink just has a wye, here it is with an old lead trap (have since changed that).
But obviously does not have a vent. All drains in the house work fast, quiet and absolutely perfect. No drainage issues whatsoever... But in searching and reading, it seems like vents are so important. For our piping run, the only vent comes off of the main stack that goes upstairs.
FWIW.
So not sure if adding a laundry standpipe just downstream of the sink is a good or bad idea... Since status quo works perfectly...
On a short run like that (for the laundry) a separate vent is not needed.
The Code here used to be 6' but today would likely be something metric.
It would be interesting to view inside the pipe, and see how much Iron you had left on the bottom.
How deep would you have to dig to access the pipe outside the house?
The Code here used to be 6' but today would likely be something metric.
It would be interesting to view inside the pipe, and see how much Iron you had left on the bottom.
How deep would you have to dig to access the pipe outside the house?
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The wheels look pretty beat up on the cutter. Looks like it could have used to cut lally columns. 45 degree angles allow the flow to move without using the whole area. So there is always a column of air in the plumbing
JHZR2
Staff member
I'm sure they are.
Few questions if I may:
-besides cost, any reason to use a combo vs wye plus 45 deg fitting?
- there used to be cleanout with a pipe plug in it which I think I'll replace. I assume that I can install a test T like this in a horizontal position?
- I plan on installing the laundry sink wye fitting horizontally, that is that the wye coming off the 4 inch pipe will be parallel to the ground. The run from the trap on the sink to the Y itself is only a matter of inches. Should I try to put any angle into it whatsoever?
- the sink drain is 1.5 or 1.25 inch pipe. The wye has 2" coming off of it. Should I use a reducer directly in the wye, or should I have a very short run of 2 inch pipe connecting the two things?
Thanks!!
Few questions if I may:
-besides cost, any reason to use a combo vs wye plus 45 deg fitting?
- there used to be cleanout with a pipe plug in it which I think I'll replace. I assume that I can install a test T like this in a horizontal position?
- I plan on installing the laundry sink wye fitting horizontally, that is that the wye coming off the 4 inch pipe will be parallel to the ground. The run from the trap on the sink to the Y itself is only a matter of inches. Should I try to put any angle into it whatsoever?
- the sink drain is 1.5 or 1.25 inch pipe. The wye has 2" coming off of it. Should I use a reducer directly in the wye, or should I have a very short run of 2 inch pipe connecting the two things?
Thanks!!
I'm curious if you could ever remove the lid on that old Tee.
Chip away all the coats of paint and use an impact wrench to loosen the cap, or is the cap permanently rusted to the pipe? It'd be hard to use heat on the rust, without accidentally catching something else on fire. I'm not a plumber, just a curious homeowner.
Chip away all the coats of paint and use an impact wrench to loosen the cap, or is the cap permanently rusted to the pipe? It'd be hard to use heat on the rust, without accidentally catching something else on fire. I'm not a plumber, just a curious homeowner.
For the vents, you could use some of those one-way check valves. This would allow you to vent the sink and the toilet without having to run a vent pipe all the way to the roof.
JHZR2
Staff member
It's all done. Phew. That PVC solvent is horrid. Sure with there was something less strong, if slower to cure.
JHZR2
Staff member
Ok! I'm finally laying in bed. Tired.
Probably spent around $125-150 for pipe, solve to, no hub fittings, all US made. Had to make a special trip to HD to get US made no hubs as the Lowes ones were Chinese. Somewhere just under $100 for tool rental, and I did spend around $50 for new shop ac bags and a gore HE filter for it.
recap:
So it all started with this leaking water that showed up as a puddle on the basement floor, after taking a long and tortuous path. Yuck.
Knew about these for a while, but they were getting worse.
After reading here:
http://www.oldhouseweb.com/how-to-advice/cast-iron-waste-pipes.shtml
It appears I had both telltale failure types. The vertical risers looked perfect and were both at the far end, and the horizontal part going into e ground also looked perfect. Turned out they were.
So we took to removing the old pipe. Tried our had with the chain cutter in an area where the pipe was porous like the second picture of bad pipe above, and it imploded. Used it more like a tubing cutter on a section where I needed a butt joint, but didnt want to chance it (didnt snap despite a lot of force), so finished it off with a sawzall with diamond blade. The metal looked good.
The no hub went on just fine, but the pipe was painted back before we moved in. So I sanded it smooth to just a slight coat of paint.
Had used the chain cutter and a sledge to break the rest.
A well placed blow caused a fracture along the bottom of one section of pipe.
Turned out that while the top was nice:
The bottom had eroded very thin, this the rust stalactites.
Apparently the pipe was made in Salem, NJ. Likely Salen Brass and Iron Foundry, per thism1916 ad on using cast vs wrought sanitary pipe.
Old advertisement
This was interesting to me. A saddle wye. It was "plugged" (not with a metal cap) and concreted in place. Had no idea it was there.
There was about a three foot concrete length at I needed to demolish, that really took the most time between renting tools, doing the work, cleaning up all the dust, and hammering the pipe free.
Finally got a clean out busted and smashed. It was tough to get the pipe put of the poured wall, and the new 4" pipe wouldn't have fit inside.
We have poured walls that make up structural portions of "rooms" in the basement. The pipe went through one of these. Interestingly, after getting out the pipe, we found a lot of unburned coal in there.
Don't think this house ever had coal heat or hot water (my parents' home did, but is a few years older than mine and is also dual set up for electric and gas lights!). I assume it was built in the fall/winter/spring and they had some coal to keep warm. Also found some wood still there in the concrete rubble. No idea why..
So then we went to put the pipe in. All 4" PVC with no hub couplers on both ends. The other end opposite what I showed above was already cut from an older patch.
Cemented it all up... Added a clean out in a convenient spot, only laundry standpipe (new) and laundry sink are beyond it, and technically there is still an iron one forward of it at the very end.
Connection to old porcelain laundry sink:
And new standpipe just path it for laundry
Torqued the no hub couplings to 60 in-lb, and all has been well, knock on wood, so far at both ends.
All in all probably spent a bit more than 12 hours on it, and my wife a portion of that, but there is a lot of back and forth to HD and LOwes, a lot of Internet searching, etc. I'm guessing still that it would have been a full day job for two plumbers.
Since Im DoD and furloughed, I could DIY, and save the expense, given the 20% pay cut (no change in workload) for the rest of the fiscal year. My wages were already lower than industry, so its quite the slap in the face given the 50+ hours I would put in typically (now technically illegal to do more than 32). But I guess a new DIY project and the money saved is a good thing that came out of it!
Probably spent around $125-150 for pipe, solve to, no hub fittings, all US made. Had to make a special trip to HD to get US made no hubs as the Lowes ones were Chinese. Somewhere just under $100 for tool rental, and I did spend around $50 for new shop ac bags and a gore HE filter for it.
recap:
So it all started with this leaking water that showed up as a puddle on the basement floor, after taking a long and tortuous path. Yuck.
Knew about these for a while, but they were getting worse.
After reading here:
http://www.oldhouseweb.com/how-to-advice/cast-iron-waste-pipes.shtml
It appears I had both telltale failure types. The vertical risers looked perfect and were both at the far end, and the horizontal part going into e ground also looked perfect. Turned out they were.
So we took to removing the old pipe. Tried our had with the chain cutter in an area where the pipe was porous like the second picture of bad pipe above, and it imploded. Used it more like a tubing cutter on a section where I needed a butt joint, but didnt want to chance it (didnt snap despite a lot of force), so finished it off with a sawzall with diamond blade. The metal looked good.
The no hub went on just fine, but the pipe was painted back before we moved in. So I sanded it smooth to just a slight coat of paint.
Had used the chain cutter and a sledge to break the rest.
A well placed blow caused a fracture along the bottom of one section of pipe.
Turned out that while the top was nice:
The bottom had eroded very thin, this the rust stalactites.
Apparently the pipe was made in Salem, NJ. Likely Salen Brass and Iron Foundry, per thism1916 ad on using cast vs wrought sanitary pipe.
Old advertisement
This was interesting to me. A saddle wye. It was "plugged" (not with a metal cap) and concreted in place. Had no idea it was there.
There was about a three foot concrete length at I needed to demolish, that really took the most time between renting tools, doing the work, cleaning up all the dust, and hammering the pipe free.
Finally got a clean out busted and smashed. It was tough to get the pipe put of the poured wall, and the new 4" pipe wouldn't have fit inside.
We have poured walls that make up structural portions of "rooms" in the basement. The pipe went through one of these. Interestingly, after getting out the pipe, we found a lot of unburned coal in there.
Don't think this house ever had coal heat or hot water (my parents' home did, but is a few years older than mine and is also dual set up for electric and gas lights!). I assume it was built in the fall/winter/spring and they had some coal to keep warm. Also found some wood still there in the concrete rubble. No idea why..
So then we went to put the pipe in. All 4" PVC with no hub couplers on both ends. The other end opposite what I showed above was already cut from an older patch.
Cemented it all up... Added a clean out in a convenient spot, only laundry standpipe (new) and laundry sink are beyond it, and technically there is still an iron one forward of it at the very end.
Connection to old porcelain laundry sink:
And new standpipe just path it for laundry
Torqued the no hub couplings to 60 in-lb, and all has been well, knock on wood, so far at both ends.
All in all probably spent a bit more than 12 hours on it, and my wife a portion of that, but there is a lot of back and forth to HD and LOwes, a lot of Internet searching, etc. I'm guessing still that it would have been a full day job for two plumbers.
Since Im DoD and furloughed, I could DIY, and save the expense, given the 20% pay cut (no change in workload) for the rest of the fiscal year. My wages were already lower than industry, so its quite the slap in the face given the 50+ hours I would put in typically (now technically illegal to do more than 32). But I guess a new DIY project and the money saved is a good thing that came out of it!
Brings back memories of Bob Vila's This Old House.
Job Well Done!
Job Well Done!
If the rest of the sewer pipe is that old it might not be a bad idea to run a new lateral.
Cut out a section and camera it, its probably old clay outside and full of roots.
Pipe has a lifespan, especially old cast iron drains and vents which are all approaching 100 years old. They get pinholes and you will see little rust spots all up and down them.
Cut out a section and camera it, its probably old clay outside and full of roots.
Pipe has a lifespan, especially old cast iron drains and vents which are all approaching 100 years old. They get pinholes and you will see little rust spots all up and down them.
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Great job. You probably did a better job than if you hired a company to do it.
Any concerns that the construction dust might have contained asbestos? It was a common additive to many materials back in the day.
Nice job!
Nice job!
I'm wondering, if you were to do the job again, would you still rent the chain cutter?
Strangely, the CI pipe you left does not look too bad. But as I said before, if I was buying your house, I would be very suspicious of the condition of the remaining CI pipe where it goes through the wall.
Strangely, the CI pipe you left does not look too bad. But as I said before, if I was buying your house, I would be very suspicious of the condition of the remaining CI pipe where it goes through the wall.
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