90% of engine wear occurs at startup

[NutBuster]

Something to think about...
My dad taught me about piston scuff when I was learning to drive. He warned me not to load the engine hard before it had warmed up. Assuming an aluminum piston will expand more rapidly than the bore, it makes sense that a lighter oil could help prevent this kind of wear during warmup. We had an old '77 Chevy wagon with a 350 which had been overheated by a previous owner with over 140K on the clock...it would have a bad case of piston slap on startup in cold weather if we used anything heavier than 10W-30.

Even to this day I will baby my car until the temp gauge has settled where it belongs. I'm sure it helps fuel economy to do so as well.

 

[mikemc]

When I was 17 I got a VW Rabbit for my first car. My Dad and I didn't really know much about cars and nothing about oil I and listened to a friend who told me to use 20w50 year round. I remember that poor car struggling to start in bitter winter and being too dumb to make the connection! That was also 1984. With today's 5w30 and 5w20 dino oils I'd say that start up wear isn't much of a concern unless you experence really bitter cold, then a good syn would be of value.

 

[Ray H]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ken2:
A journal rides on a wedge of oil that it creates by the fact of it's rotation inside the bearing. There is no metal to metal contact. When starting, there is just residual oil from the last running which contains some boundary lubrication properties. With this in mind, it's easy to see that most wear does indeed occur upon starting.

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I must need new glasses. Are you discounting the bonded layer of zinc phosphates and moly on the sliding surfaces as a mitigating factor in initial startup wear? At startup and idle in neutral, the engine is putting out very little power regardless of idle speed - just enough power to maintain the programmed cold idle speed against the parasitic losses of friction, oil viscosity, and accessories. Presuming use of a suitable oil viscosity range for the expected temperatures, oil delivery to the bearings should be evident well within ten seconds.

 

[badnews]

ok, you guys have me on the tech aspect of the engine oil and driving when the engine is warm, but there is a "HUMAN" factor here, I will expound-- you go to a vehicle, it is 20- 30 below, parked outside, you start it, your breath is frosting inside the vehicle, windows are fogging up, engine is taking forever to warm up, you scrape the frost off the inside of the vehicle, put it in drive and go for the engine to heat up faster and get some warm air going through the vents. What is the best thing to do ---drive slow till it gets warm, or just sit till it warms up ?????????????????????? Engine block heaters are not a option because this is a infrequent enough of a thing to prohibit the expence of them, although it occurs with some frequency.

 

[Ray H]

quote:

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Originally posted by Matt89:
I think the "startup wear" issue really got fueled by the Slick50 marketing.

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And, I think you're absolutely right! (I'm still baffled by the claim that the "world's slickest substance" can, in the presence of motor oil - along with its EP agents already bonded to the bearing surfaces, still bond to the metal bearing surfaces in an engine... Amazing "facts".

)

 

[Brian Barnhart]

quote:

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Because those big engines run almost continously, thay last for 5000 hrs or longer. Try to achieve it with your car.

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At 35 mph average (a very realistic number over the life of a typical vehicle), 5000 hours is 175,000 miles. That doesn't seem very far fetched for a good auto engine with routine maintenance and good oil.

Even with mostly highway driving, the average speed would not likely be much over 50 MPH. That's 250,000 miles for 5000 hours. Again, not all that uncommon for a good quality, well maintained auto driven mostly on the highway.

 

[Ray H]

quote:

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Originally posted by badnews:
What is the best thing to do ---drive slow till it gets warm, or just sit till it warms up ?...

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You'll get a debate on this. During warm-up, the engine IS running richer (though not as much as with carburetors and their chokes of the past), so there is some amount of cylinder washdown. To my mind that's an argument to drive off easily after just a minute of idling. However, a co-worker of mine 30 years ago used to start his 1970 Ford Torino (carbureted 302 V-8) in the evening after work and let it idle 20 minutes before he'd move. I learned early on you could always tell Sam, but you couldn't tell him much. He put 270,000 miles on the car with dino oils of the time. So, your guess is as good as mine, but I lean toward moving off as soon as possible and driving easy while my engine comes up to operating temperature.

[ August 07, 2003, 03:42 PM: Message edited by: Ray H ]

 

[Scotto]

Hi,

My 2 cents: I start it up, wait till the idle kicks down(about 15 to 20 secs), then drive off.

Scotto

 

[StiMan]

WHAT ARE people thoughts on Catrols Magnatec

"Short Journey Wear and Tear
Whatever the type of car, the engine suffers damaging metal-to-metal contact for vital seconds until it is fully warmed up. Castrol GTX Magnatec provides your engine with unparalleled protection during this critical start up and warm up period, when 75% of engine wear occurs. It achieves this through a unique formula which creates a film of protection on your engine's surface that stays in place even after the engine has been turned off. "

 

[labman]

Let's face it, engines are tough. The people next door to the upper flat we lived in in 1968 had a 1960 Chevy six. I don't know how long they had it. I do know that every morning they started it up right under our bed room window and raced it. At first I ducked under the bed fearing flying pistons coming through the window. Before long I realized since it hadn't happened yet, it wasn't going to. They were still doing it when we moved away 3 years later. They may well have been running straight 30 weight then.

Still, I run 5W-30 and do not stress the engine until it is warm. Moderate operation speeds warm up.

 

[DavoNF]

StiMan,

You being a fellow Aussie and a newby, let me put you in the picture. Oils sold in Australia are not necessarily sold in NA. An oil may be labelled "Castrol Magnatec" in Oz and labelled something else somewhere else.

So asking an opinion on an oil that is only sold in Oz and maybe SE Asia, will not elicit much response. The majority on this board, I assume, have never heard of Magnatec.

As for my opinion on Magnatec, dunno, never used it. If you are using it, maybe you could post up a UOA, you will then get "the good oil"

cheers
Dave

[ November 12, 2003, 01:36 AM: Message edited by: DavoNF ]

 

[StiMan]

quote:

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Originally posted by DavoNF:
StiMan,

You being a fellow Aussie and a newby, let me put you in the picture. Oils sold in Australia are not necessarily sold in NA. An oil may be labelled "Castrol Magnatec" in Oz and labelled something else somewhere else.

So asking an opinion on an oil that is only sold in Oz and maybe SE Asia, will not elicit much response. The majority on this board, I assume, have never heard of Magnatec.

As for my opinion on Magnatec, dunno, never used it. If you are using it, maybe you could post up a UOA, you will then get "the good oil"

cheers
Dave

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hey dave, i know they have different oils there.... like DINO... never heard of that before... what is that in australia?

i looked up castrol website... and it looked like castrol existed in USA..

btw. what is a UOA?

also do you know where we can get a oil analysis kit in australia? or where we can get someone else to analyse our oil?


thanks

 

[sprintman]

Dino is oil from dead dinosaurs eg not synthetic.
Many oild here are different than NA except ones like Mobil Delvac 1, Mobil 1, Motul etc. UOA is used oil analysis, VOA virgin oil analysis. Do you have a WRX Sti?

 

[DavoNF]

StiMan,

Yes, the terms can be a bit confusing at first. If you want a basic oil analysis try this mob, they do a good job.
http://www.e-monitor.com.au/
Download the sample report form to see what you are getting.

cheers
Dave

 

[Bamaro]

quote:

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Originally posted by badnews:
What is the best thing to do ---drive slow till it gets warm, or just sit till it warms up ??????????????????????

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Well, one thing for sure. While you are sitting there going nowhere, you are getting ZERO MPG and running richer for a longer period of time.

 

[TC]

I was curious as to what SAE testing had to say about "% wear caused at start-ups..." and performed a Web search, but did not find the answer. I did find many sites selling additives and snake oils mentioning numbers from 50%-90%, but nothing independent and authoritative. However, I did find the following info from some credible sources:

"It is well documented that the majority of engine wear occurs during these critical moments during cold temperature start up." http://www.chevron.com/prodserv/ehl/engineoilspecs.htm

"Q: Does it help to let your car warm up in WINTER before you start driving?: "A: During the winter when an engine is cold and the oil is thick, DO NOT rev up the engine immediately after starting it. The best compromise is to wait two or three minutes, then drive slowly for the next five to 10 minutes until the engine reaches the proper operating temperature. This procedure keeps engine revs down and builds up the oil pressure required to allow lubricating oil to move throughout the engine...It takes a few minutes for the engine temperature to warm the oil to make this lubricating process work properly." As for non-frigid temps, I suspect my 2002 Chrysler owner's manual is typical in that it doesn't recommend warming up, but simply says to avoid high speed and high RPMs until the gauge indicates normal temp. http://www.shell.ca/code/motoring/tips/engines.html

And from a 10-1-98 L.A. Times "car tech" article I saved: "You've probably heard that start-up wear results in 85% of total engine wear. First, start-up wear isn't responsible for engine failures. Second, bearings aren't running dry -- oil remains after you've turned off the engine. Finally, the wear that's taking place has far less to do with metal-to-metal contact from lack of oil than with byproducts of combustion. Those acidic gases condense and etch cylinder walls and piston rings. Once oil pressure comes up, which happens quickly in a healthy motor, the problem is taken care of. That's why it's good to run a cold engine 15-30 seconds before driving off."

 

[buster]

I read on another site where a mechanic recommended a 5w-30 oil for DOHC BMW's vs a 10w/15w-40 wt oils. Said it was crucial to get oil up into the cams as quickly as possible.

I've been looking at various oils and their viscosities @ 40C. GC 0w-30 is around 67, M1 10w-30 EP is 67, 5w-30 EP 55, RL 5w-20 is 55 and M1 5w-20 is 48. Amsoil's 0w-30 has a nice balance @ 56 @40c and 11.2 cSt @100C. I'd guess that any of these are more then good enough but for winter driver, a 0w or at least a 5w would be more preferable.

 

[goodvibes]

Waiting to drive 15 sec. to 1 minute depending on the outside temp. so that the oil is cycled through then driving moderately to warm up quickly is what I like to do. I want things up to temp don't like running rich. Once a modern multiweight is moving through the motor, I don't think wear is a big problem if unless your too agressive early. We see lots of UOAs get better from matching the oil to driving habits rarely start up habits. friendly_jacek, I read that report also and it seams right to me. Doing things this way should also get the best mileage.

 

[Ugly3]

quote:

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Originally posted by Brian Barnhart:

quote:

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Because those big engines run almost continously, thay last for 5000 hrs or longer. Try to achieve it with your car.

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At 35 mph average (a very realistic number over the life of a typical vehicle), 5000 hours is 175,000 miles. That doesn't seem very far fetched for a good auto engine with routine maintenance and good oil.

Even with mostly highway driving, the average speed would not likely be much over 50 MPH. That's 250,000 miles for 5000 hours. Again, not all that uncommon for a good quality, well maintained auto driven mostly on the highway.

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I don't know where the 5,000 hour figure comes from but we were looking at a genset with a recommended overhaul at 50,000 hours. I know my Grandkids are running 2 John Deere tractors with 12,000+ hours on them.

5,000 just seems a little short.

 

[Ugly3]

quote:

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Originally posted by Sei:
I came to have strange habbit of starting the engine. I turn on the engine and wait a few minutes until rev goes down somewhat. And then I shut off the engine and wait for 15 seconds to a few minutes. Why? I imagine the scuffs and small particles accumulated around piston ring flow down during that period. Then I start again and drive car. In my imagination, I feel the car is quiter and smoother.

This is not based on any science or knowledge and may be silly, but at least to my gut feeling, i feel the difference.

I wonder what you gentlemen think about this practise. I hope any of you just try this and let us know if you too feel the difference.

Sei

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Strange habit indeed!