Hmmm...at first I thought you were a Proctologist.
62,000 miles without an oil change
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Patman
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I just read it Paul, great stuff!
I remember back in the early to mid eighties when the dealer I went to sold Volvo's and BMW's. I was always seeing these BMW motors getting pulled. I would just for fun read the speedometers. Every one of them was right around 30-35K miles. One day I made a comment of how I was glad I had bought the Volvo over the BMW. The tech asked why and I explained how I was seeing all these BMW's with there motors pulled. He said oh those, Guys buy those for their wives and all the wives do is put gas in them and never check the oil let alone have it changed. Every one of those engines seized because they never changed the oil after the free break in oil change at 1000 miles. All I could say was I was impressed that they lasted that long with zero oil changes.
"When is the last time you heard of someone experiencing an engine failure (in normal use) that could be verifiably traced to damage from insufficient lubrication due to infrequent oil changes? Oil never wears out."
Oil never wears out, true, however the additives that are REQUIRED that allow the "oil" to go the long distance DO WEAR OUT. A TBN of 0.0 is NOT desirable. You may as well just use SA oil at that point. No need for all those pesky additives, is there?
Oil never wears out, true, however the additives that are REQUIRED that allow the "oil" to go the long distance DO WEAR OUT. A TBN of 0.0 is NOT desirable. You may as well just use SA oil at that point. No need for all those pesky additives, is there?
Paul
Plenty of stories with Synlube
http://www.synlube.com/since1992.htm
Per Miro Kefurt
Since 1969 not a single engine has failed because of use of SynLube and not spending $6.5 million to demonstrate that ONE engine can last in a LABORATORY for 40 times longer than the same engine running for 300 hours on another oil, is simply waste of money and would make one liter of SynLube cost $140.00 instead of $32.00
Plenty of stories with Synlube
http://www.synlube.com/since1992.htm
Per Miro Kefurt
Since 1969 not a single engine has failed because of use of SynLube and not spending $6.5 million to demonstrate that ONE engine can last in a LABORATORY for 40 times longer than the same engine running for 300 hours on another oil, is simply waste of money and would make one liter of SynLube cost $140.00 instead of $32.00
I don't know how many miles it was but I didn't change the oil in a 78 VW Rabbit for over 4-5 years. I consumed so much oil (valve stem seals) that the oil never got dirty, about 1 qt every 400 mi. I finally just started changing the filter ever 4K. When I got enough money together to get new stem seals, oil consumption ended and I went back to a normal OCI. I sold that car with over 330K mi. on it in 1989, still running and pretty well too.
I bought a new 1977 Rabbit that consumed a quart of oil about every 200 miles right from day one from bad valve stem seals. After much haggling, VOA and I agreed to have them pay and warranty the new head but I pay the dealers labor charges and VOA got to keep the defective head. It was better than the original offer of I pay ALL the costs myself. Mind you this was well before the initial 12,000 mile warranty was up. VOA kept saying 200 miles per quart was "acceptable"
After the new head was was installed I got over 108,000 miles on it by the time I sold it. It used minimal oil between oil changes after the new head was installed.
Whimsey
Let's see:
Lexus
Toyota
Audi
Volkswagen
Saab
In the last 10 years, all of these manufacturers have had engines fail, due to oil sludge caused by running the oil too long. So, I guess that would be the last time I heard of an engine failure (in normal use) that could be verifiably traced to damage from infrequent oil changes.
wavinwayne: The facts:the oil sludge problem was limited to four specific engine types: Toyota/Lexus 2.2 and 3.0, VW?Audi 1.8, Saab, and Chrysler 2.7, and only for specific years. Lo and behold, after changes were made to these engines, sludge problems dissapear! Lots of folks who had this problem vcould verify that they kept recommended OCI. Manufacturers extend warranty, and settle legal claims. So you expect me to beleive that it was an OCI problem instead of a design problem; sorry, but I prefer facts over fiction.
Agreed. There have been a substantial number of cases of engine failure directly attributed to lubrication (or lack therof). Manufacturers, in a blind attempt to try to make themselves look good to the customer by telling them they can go longer between OCI's have ultimately got burned by their own advice. 7,500+ OCI recommendations are lumped under the "normal" driving habit category (also called optimal conditions which are NOT reality)..and quite simply it's been that way for longer than I can remember. As most of us know on this board, very few vehicle owners fall under these "optimal" conditions...nearly all falling under the "severe" service schedule. By default I put my vehicle under the latter service schedule and build upon it from there. I think OCI's under this category should fall between 3-6k, no more no less depending on oil type used. It should provide peace of mind to the owner when they do it at these intervals considering the fact that they just forked over between 30-50k on average for a new car/truck. It would be mindless to gripe about an $20-30 oil change for something you just spent so much money on, absolutely mindless. Lubrication failures happen more often than we are led to believe. Bottom line, IMO, extended OCI's lead to oil sludge in turn leading to oil starvation and then lubrication failure in worst case scenario's. In the end I think what I'm trying to get at is that the "average" or "typical" vehicle owner is not educated enough (or at all)on the advantages/benefits of good maintenance habits.
If you want to be a below average or typical vehicle owner and just forget about oil/filter changes, just topping off your oil every 1000k or so due to worn valve and cam seals than in the grand scheme of things you really are not conserving oil are you? You're still using as much oil as a typical oil change due to oil burn off. Nope, sorry I dont subscribe to that plan at all.
Let's see:
Lexus
Toyota
Audi
Volkswagen
Saab
In the last 10 years, all of these manufacturers have had engines fail, due to oil sludge caused by running the oil too long. So, I guess that would be the last time I heard of an engine failure (in normal use) that could be verifiably traced to damage from infrequent oil changes.
If you want to be a below average or typical vehicle owner and just forget about oil/filter changes, just topping off your oil every 1000k or so due to worn valve and cam seals than in the grand scheme of things you really are not conserving oil are you? You're still using as much oil as a typical oil change due to oil burn off. Nope, sorry I dont subscribe to that plan at all.
Let's see:
Lexus
Toyota
Audi
Volkswagen
Saab
In the last 10 years, all of these manufacturers have had engines fail, due to oil sludge caused by running the oil too long. So, I guess that would be the last time I heard of an engine failure (in normal use) that could be verifiably traced to damage from infrequent oil changes.
Well, my gal dropped her 2000 Infinity I30 to the Stealer every 15K for OCI and "anything else they said it needed" for 6 years. I looked through her papers, and sure enough, at nearly 50K on the car last fall, there were three slips in the glove box, a 15, a 30K, and another at 46,000. Dino, I'm assuming, they didn't charge for syn. The area you could see under the cap was varnished, a little bit of tiny bits of sludgey-stuff, but hardly what I expected. I did a couple of 1500-mile OCI with AA store brand 5W30 with new filters and each one had crud inside when I chopped em, the second much less. In October, I changed it to PP 5W30 for the winter and it's nice and clean now at 5K since then. A little tinge of varnish, but the little bits of "stuff" are gone and it's very clean under there now. Oil is darker than new, but not filthy at all.
That absolutely convinced me a 7500 OCI on a car that isn't raced, even on dino (today's dino that is) is fine and dandy. This car runs smoothly and pretty fast, and very, very quietly. Most would consider that 15K dino OCI abuse, and perhaps at 100,000 with the same 15K interval, it would have been awful, but it surely wasn't what I expected when she told me how often it was serviced.
I had that "just in time" feeling..
That absolutely convinced me a 7500 OCI on a car that isn't raced, even on dino (today's dino that is) is fine and dandy. This car runs smoothly and pretty fast, and very, very quietly. Most would consider that 15K dino OCI abuse, and perhaps at 100,000 with the same 15K interval, it would have been awful, but it surely wasn't what I expected when she told me how often it was serviced.
I had that "just in time" feeling..
I can tell you what changes Toyota made: went from 7500 miles to 5000 miles OCI accross the board. Didn't you get that in your "research"?
jacek, As for the Toyota 3.0L, Toyota changed the PCV Valve in the 2002 model year. This eliminated one of the three sludge-producting issues in this engine. What's the mfr recommended OCI for early 2002, late 2002, 2003, and the newer 3.3L Sienna's?
I believe that toocrazy2yoo is correct. In fact, way back in 1996 consumer reports came to a similar conclusion after running a 4 1/2 million mile oil test. Even though oils in 1996 weren't as good as today's oils. Below is a summary of that oil test.
The testers placed freshly rebuilt engines in 75 New York taxis and then ran them for nearly two years, with each cab racking up 60,000 miles, placing different brands and weights in different cars and changing the oil at 3,000 miles in half the cars and 6,000 in the other half. At the conclusion of the test period, the engines were torn down, measured and inspected. The conclusions: Regardless of brand of oil or weight, no measurable differences could be observed in engine wear. Furthermore, there was no difference among cars which had oil changed at the shorter or longer interval.
The testers placed freshly rebuilt engines in 75 New York taxis and then ran them for nearly two years, with each cab racking up 60,000 miles, placing different brands and weights in different cars and changing the oil at 3,000 miles in half the cars and 6,000 in the other half. At the conclusion of the test period, the engines were torn down, measured and inspected. The conclusions: Regardless of brand of oil or weight, no measurable differences could be observed in engine wear. Furthermore, there was no difference among cars which had oil changed at the shorter or longer interval.
If one is serious about writing a balanced article on OCI, one should look at all aspects and not just cover it all.
For example: Quality of fuel in some countries vs other (fuel in US and canada is low quality compared with japan and europe with higher sulfur and quicker depletion of TBN); quality of oil in some contries vs other (group 3 in US is called synthetic but semisynthetic in europe); some cars have large oil sumps and burn some oil (thus can get away with longer interwals); some cars have hot oil temp and thus shorter OCI; etc, etc.
Paul N didn't do his homework well.
For example: Quality of fuel in some countries vs other (fuel in US and canada is low quality compared with japan and europe with higher sulfur and quicker depletion of TBN); quality of oil in some contries vs other (group 3 in US is called synthetic but semisynthetic in europe); some cars have large oil sumps and burn some oil (thus can get away with longer interwals); some cars have hot oil temp and thus shorter OCI; etc, etc.
Paul N didn't do his homework well.
don't know if Paul did his homework well or not, but I appreciate this topic...as long as it stays on course.
I think the VW motor would go just fine for 62k on one oil change, so long as they changed the filter and topped the oil up at regular oil change intervals.
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Hmmm...at first I thought you were a Proctologist.
VW still make those 1.6L's and other "rabbits" here in SA. They offer 1.3, 1,4, 1.6, 1,8 models...Its a real budget number and I think they are long overdue for replacement, but the fact is they still sell them by the millions.
The motors are quite an improvement on the original item from the 80's, but Im not convinced that it will do 100k KM without a change...don't get me wrong, I don't doubt that someone tried it. But without regular and large!! topups (as mentioned) I can't believe that the motor was fine at the given mileage with no oil change.Maybe it would make it there, but it would be pretty stuffed.
I have seen a bunch of cars where owners have neglected to change the oil...most of these have been running on low quality dino...and they needed parafin dropped into them to loosen up the sludge just to allow the goo to drop out the drain hole...non of them were near 100k KM...most were 40k or there about. Just my 2 cents.
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