5w30 synthetic oil in a manual transmission
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MolaKule
Staff member
Good luck, you might need it.
Just so you know, a PCMO has about 1/3 the AW chemistry of a dedicated MTF and no friction modifier for the synchros.
Just so you know, a PCMO has about 1/3 the AW chemistry of a dedicated MTF and no friction modifier for the synchros.
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MolaKule
Staff member
You need to read the White Paper on Manual Transmissions, referenced in post #3949439 in this thread:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...sio#Post1231182
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...sio#Post1231182
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You need to try the ac delco fluid out. I've never seen an oil with perfect ratings. And every poster comments how it completely changed their trans behavior. I'm thinking of putting this in my Acura just because!
MolaKule
Staff member
Originally Posted By: BlackBeard
You need to try the ac delco fluid out. I've never seen an oil with perfect ratings. And every poster comments how it completely changed their trans behavior. I'm thinking of putting this in my Acura just because!
If you read back through the thread, you will see this product has previously been suggested many times.
However, it appears SHOZ is more impressed with Internet misinformation than facts.
You need to try the ac delco fluid out. I've never seen an oil with perfect ratings. And every poster comments how it completely changed their trans behavior. I'm thinking of putting this in my Acura just because!
If you read back through the thread, you will see this product has previously been suggested many times.
However, it appears SHOZ is more impressed with Internet misinformation than facts.
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I put about 50 miles on it last night. Much improved especially the locked out on downshifting. Does less clunking, locking out and smoother shifting mean the 5w30 M! HM is bad for my transmission?
I'll wait to see if it gets even better after a few hundred miles.
I'll wait to see if it gets even better after a few hundred miles.
MolaKule
Staff member
Using an analogy, if I use a 0W5 in my 10W30 speced SB V8 it will rev like a banshee - for about 30 minutes.
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Using an analogy, if I use a 0W5 in my 10W30 speced SB V8 it will rev like a banshee - for about 30 minutes.
That's not an analogy. That's sidetracking and not relevant. I suppose it's better to be locked out of the gears and forcing it into those gears?
Using an analogy, if I use a 0W5 in my 10W30 speced SB V8 it will rev like a banshee - for about 30 minutes.
That's not an analogy. That's sidetracking and not relevant. I suppose it's better to be locked out of the gears and forcing it into those gears?
MolaKule
Staff member
Actually the comment contained a smidgeon of sarcasm, but you didn't get that either since you had your mind made up beforehand.
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
SHOZ said:
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MolaKule
Staff member
So you say.
Hi MolaKule,
I'm the person from the Genesis Coupe Forum that switched to using Synthetic 5W30 Motor Oil instead of the recommended GL-4. But, I didn't switch blindly. I've been working on motorcycles and cars for 35 years, I'm 47 now. The car is my daily driver, I commute 80 miles a day, in NY stop and go traffic. The car was unbearable in traffic. The clutch action was very good but shifting was like shifting a tractor. Upshifting could not be rushed, it would not go into gear smoothly and there was always a little of a grind going into 5th gear. Downshifting was horrible, basically you had to hold the shifter in the gate until it slid in. Coasting was even more horrible, it would jerk, it would not want to freewheel even at low rpms. There was a lot of gearbox noise. I could not drive the car in that kind of traffic. I checked every single auto parts store in my area and NON had GL-4, they only had Pennzoil Synchromesh, but that is GL-3. I was determined to fix the problem. I looked at every MTL post on the Genesis Coupe Form and other Hyundai forums, not one person said that they found a fix, only that Redline MTL, MT85, Amsoil, Redline, Pentosin, etc helped a little. So I said to myself, If GL-4 is basically Synthetic Motor Oil with increased AW and EP additives, and since most of my old manual cars called for Motor Oil, I will look for a Synthetic Motor Oil with the equivalent viscosity as 75W80 (the new Pentosin GL-4 weight from the latest Hyundai TSB), equivalent Zinc and Phosphorus and with Friction Modifiers that were fine enough for these very picky synchros. The problem was that in the mid 90's the Zinc and Phosphorus in motor oils were reduced. I did a lot of research and found that using Synthetic 5W30 Motor Oil will do the trick, but to find the right one. I started with Valvoline Synpower 5W30, but that only has Zinc of 830 and Phosphorus of 760, not bad but not the best, The sychros really like the very fine friction modifiers as it now shifts very good.
After doing some more research, I've found that there are a few motor oils out there that have very high Zinc and Phosphorus, Mobil 1 Racing 0W30 has 1,850 Zinc and 1,750 Phosphorus. Valvoline VR1 Dyno 10W30 has 1,400 and 1,300. Mobil 1 Tubro Diesel Truck 5W40 has 1,250 and 1,130. Mobile 1 HM has 1,100 and 1,000 and Valvoline VR1 Synthetic has 1,100 and 1,000.
Since you are a tribologist and have inside knowledge of the AW and EP additives of all oils. I'm asking for your help. I know we aren't using a GL-4 oil here, but it clearly doesn't work. So I am asking if you can do a comparison of the above mentioned oils to the Pentosin 75W80 GL-4 or the Redline MTL which is the equivalen of Pentosin, so we can see if we are close to the same formula. I only have access to product data sheets, so my information is very limited. Also most oil companies do not list the Zinc and Phosphorus content on their data sheets so I didn't list them.
Thanks.
I'm the person from the Genesis Coupe Forum that switched to using Synthetic 5W30 Motor Oil instead of the recommended GL-4. But, I didn't switch blindly. I've been working on motorcycles and cars for 35 years, I'm 47 now. The car is my daily driver, I commute 80 miles a day, in NY stop and go traffic. The car was unbearable in traffic. The clutch action was very good but shifting was like shifting a tractor. Upshifting could not be rushed, it would not go into gear smoothly and there was always a little of a grind going into 5th gear. Downshifting was horrible, basically you had to hold the shifter in the gate until it slid in. Coasting was even more horrible, it would jerk, it would not want to freewheel even at low rpms. There was a lot of gearbox noise. I could not drive the car in that kind of traffic. I checked every single auto parts store in my area and NON had GL-4, they only had Pennzoil Synchromesh, but that is GL-3. I was determined to fix the problem. I looked at every MTL post on the Genesis Coupe Form and other Hyundai forums, not one person said that they found a fix, only that Redline MTL, MT85, Amsoil, Redline, Pentosin, etc helped a little. So I said to myself, If GL-4 is basically Synthetic Motor Oil with increased AW and EP additives, and since most of my old manual cars called for Motor Oil, I will look for a Synthetic Motor Oil with the equivalent viscosity as 75W80 (the new Pentosin GL-4 weight from the latest Hyundai TSB), equivalent Zinc and Phosphorus and with Friction Modifiers that were fine enough for these very picky synchros. The problem was that in the mid 90's the Zinc and Phosphorus in motor oils were reduced. I did a lot of research and found that using Synthetic 5W30 Motor Oil will do the trick, but to find the right one. I started with Valvoline Synpower 5W30, but that only has Zinc of 830 and Phosphorus of 760, not bad but not the best, The sychros really like the very fine friction modifiers as it now shifts very good.
After doing some more research, I've found that there are a few motor oils out there that have very high Zinc and Phosphorus, Mobil 1 Racing 0W30 has 1,850 Zinc and 1,750 Phosphorus. Valvoline VR1 Dyno 10W30 has 1,400 and 1,300. Mobil 1 Tubro Diesel Truck 5W40 has 1,250 and 1,130. Mobile 1 HM has 1,100 and 1,000 and Valvoline VR1 Synthetic has 1,100 and 1,000.
Since you are a tribologist and have inside knowledge of the AW and EP additives of all oils. I'm asking for your help. I know we aren't using a GL-4 oil here, but it clearly doesn't work. So I am asking if you can do a comparison of the above mentioned oils to the Pentosin 75W80 GL-4 or the Redline MTL which is the equivalen of Pentosin, so we can see if we are close to the same formula. I only have access to product data sheets, so my information is very limited. Also most oil companies do not list the Zinc and Phosphorus content on their data sheets so I didn't list them.
Thanks.
Drove another 50 or so miles last night. It seems that the 5w30 may be to thick when 'cold'. That's been around 50F here lately. After driving an hour or so it is smooth as can be. I wonder if a lighter weight oil would help say the 5w20 M1 HM?
I don't think the transmission oil ever gets hot. Maybe 120F or so. Even in the summer and on the track I bet it does not exceed 150F.
But I'll second dagreek. Did not come here to argue but to get info and help. And yest I was predispositioned to use the motor oil. It was obvious the Redline MTL and MT 85 did not do the job.
I don't think the transmission oil ever gets hot. Maybe 120F or so. Even in the summer and on the track I bet it does not exceed 150F.
But I'll second dagreek. Did not come here to argue but to get info and help. And yest I was predispositioned to use the motor oil. It was obvious the Redline MTL and MT 85 did not do the job.
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Drove another 50 or so miles last night. It seems that the 5w30 may be to thick when 'cold'. That's been around 50F here lately. After driving an hour or so it is smooth as can be. I wonder if a lighter weight oil would help say the 5w20 M1 HM?
I don't think the transmission oil ever gets hot. Maybe 120F or so. Even in the summer and on the track I bet it does not exceed 150F.
But I'll second dagreek. Did not come here to argue but to get info and help. And yest I was predispositioned to use the motor oil. It was obvious the Redline MTL and MT 85 did not do the job.
Hey Shoz,
I think going to a 0W30 would be better in colder climates. Check out the viscosity chart. 75W80 is like a 10W20ish while 75W85 is like a 10W30ish. But on the Redline MTL data page it said it was equivalent to 5W30, beats me. But one thing I know for sure is that even cold the 5W30 works better than the stuff that was in my car before. And I still think the old owner put GL-5 cause of the very bad sulfuric smell when I drained it.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/viscosity-charts/
Drove another 50 or so miles last night. It seems that the 5w30 may be to thick when 'cold'. That's been around 50F here lately. After driving an hour or so it is smooth as can be. I wonder if a lighter weight oil would help say the 5w20 M1 HM?
I don't think the transmission oil ever gets hot. Maybe 120F or so. Even in the summer and on the track I bet it does not exceed 150F.
But I'll second dagreek. Did not come here to argue but to get info and help. And yest I was predispositioned to use the motor oil. It was obvious the Redline MTL and MT 85 did not do the job.
Hey Shoz,
I think going to a 0W30 would be better in colder climates. Check out the viscosity chart. 75W80 is like a 10W20ish while 75W85 is like a 10W30ish. But on the Redline MTL data page it said it was equivalent to 5W30, beats me. But one thing I know for sure is that even cold the 5W30 works better than the stuff that was in my car before. And I still think the old owner put GL-5 cause of the very bad sulfuric smell when I drained it.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/viscosity-charts/
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MolaKule
Staff member
Quote:
I checked every single auto parts store in my area and NON had GL-4, they only had Pennzoil Synchromesh, but that is GL-3.
Well, Valvoline has an MTF that is similar, you might look for it.
BTW, where did you get the info that Pennzoil's Synchromesh was NOT a GL-4?
Quote:
So I said to myself, If GL-4 is basically Synthetic Motor Oil with increased AW and EP additives, and since most of my old manual cars called for Motor Oil, Oil will do the trick, but to find the right one. I started with Valvoline Synpower 5W30, but that only has Zinc of 830 and Phosphorus of 760, not bad but not the best, The sychros really like the very fine friction modifiers as it now shifts very good.
First off GL-4 gearlube is not a 5W30 motor oil.
Secondly, the AW package in PCMO's is only 1/2 to 1/3 the levels found in dedicated MTF's.
Thirdly, the friction modification in PCMO's is not the same as in
dedicated MTF's. PCMO FM's are not good for synchro's.
You are simply regurgitating the same old inaccurate internet myth's, as is the case for most newbies who come to BITOG.
Quote:
And this needs to be said again regarding Friction Modifiers for MTFs':
We have to be careful about not stating inaccurate assumptions about MTF Friction Modifiers because friction modifiers for MTF's are NOT the same friction modifiers for ATF, are NOT the same friction modifiers for differentials fluids, are NOT the same friction modifiers for MO's, and are NOT the same friction modifiers for tractor wet clutches.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/1231182/5
I checked every single auto parts store in my area and NON had GL-4, they only had Pennzoil Synchromesh, but that is GL-3.
Well, Valvoline has an MTF that is similar, you might look for it.
BTW, where did you get the info that Pennzoil's Synchromesh was NOT a GL-4?
Quote:
So I said to myself, If GL-4 is basically Synthetic Motor Oil with increased AW and EP additives, and since most of my old manual cars called for Motor Oil, Oil will do the trick, but to find the right one. I started with Valvoline Synpower 5W30, but that only has Zinc of 830 and Phosphorus of 760, not bad but not the best, The sychros really like the very fine friction modifiers as it now shifts very good.
First off GL-4 gearlube is not a 5W30 motor oil.
Secondly, the AW package in PCMO's is only 1/2 to 1/3 the levels found in dedicated MTF's.
Thirdly, the friction modification in PCMO's is not the same as in
dedicated MTF's. PCMO FM's are not good for synchro's.
You are simply regurgitating the same old inaccurate internet myth's, as is the case for most newbies who come to BITOG.
Quote:
And this needs to be said again regarding Friction Modifiers for MTFs':
We have to be careful about not stating inaccurate assumptions about MTF Friction Modifiers because friction modifiers for MTF's are NOT the same friction modifiers for ATF, are NOT the same friction modifiers for differentials fluids, are NOT the same friction modifiers for MO's, and are NOT the same friction modifiers for tractor wet clutches.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/1231182/5
The bottle of Pennzoil Synchromesh says it's GL-3 but doesn't say anything about GL-4, but the Data Sheet doesn't say anything other that the GM & Chrysler requirements.
If you read the paper that Richard Widman wrote, who actually did a chemical analysis of GL-4 MTF and 5W30 Motor oil, he said their components are very similar with a few friction modifiers added to the GL-4. He also states that motor oil classifies as GL-3 and GL-4 in gear protection. http://www.widman.biz/uploads/Transaxle_oil.pdf
I'm not arguing with you that they are different, because they are. I just want to find a synthetic motor oil that has similar AW and FMs and will cure this transmission of it's horrible shifting as not one GL-4 MTF has. Even the Pentosin GL-4 75W80 in the Hyundai TSB, didn't help. We have to look outside of the box, cause nothing inside the box has helped.
Maybe the Pennzoil Synchromesh might do the trick. Who knows? I didn't try it cause it didn't say that is GL-4.
If you read the paper that Richard Widman wrote, who actually did a chemical analysis of GL-4 MTF and 5W30 Motor oil, he said their components are very similar with a few friction modifiers added to the GL-4. He also states that motor oil classifies as GL-3 and GL-4 in gear protection. http://www.widman.biz/uploads/Transaxle_oil.pdf
I'm not arguing with you that they are different, because they are. I just want to find a synthetic motor oil that has similar AW and FMs and will cure this transmission of it's horrible shifting as not one GL-4 MTF has. Even the Pentosin GL-4 75W80 in the Hyundai TSB, didn't help. We have to look outside of the box, cause nothing inside the box has helped.
Maybe the Pennzoil Synchromesh might do the trick. Who knows? I didn't try it cause it didn't say that is GL-4.
MolaKule
Staff member
Originally Posted By: dagreek
...If you read the paper that Richard Widman wrote, who actually did a chemical analysis of GL-4 MTF and 5W30 Motor oil, he said their components are very similar with a few friction modifiers added to the GL-4. He also states that motor oil classifies as GL-3 and GL-4 in gear protection. http://www.widman.biz/uploads/Transaxle_oil.pdf...
I guess I missed the paragraph or chart where Richard showed an actual chemical analysis of GL-4 MTF's and 5W30 Motor oils.
Originally Posted By: Richard Wittman
The original target audience for this paper was my group of friends in the Corvair world, but it applies to all cars and is particularly important for all classic cars...
While his write-up contains much useful information, the above was his target audience, and his article's main thrust was to differentiate between GL-4 and GL-5 gear oils.
A lubricant tested for GL-X protection levels is usually tested in an FZG machine and I have never seen any motor oil tested for GL-X equivalency in an FZG machine.
Motor oils were specified in earlier transmissions because because there were no application specific or Dedicated MTF's available.
Later, Texaco and Shell developed their line of Dedicated MTF's for GM, Chrysler, and Ford as factory fills in synchronized MT's.
Quote:
He also states that motor oil classifies as GL-3 and GL-4 in gear protection.
Again let me state:
Quote:
A lubricant tested for GL-X protection levels is usually tested in an FZG machine and I have never seen any motor oil tested for GL-X equivalency in an FZG machine.
When selecting an MTF, there are three main considerations:
1) Viscosity,
2) Anti-Wear (AW) additives to qualify for a GL-4 protection level,
3) Proper friction modification (FM) for smooth synchronizer assembly operation.
...If you read the paper that Richard Widman wrote, who actually did a chemical analysis of GL-4 MTF and 5W30 Motor oil, he said their components are very similar with a few friction modifiers added to the GL-4. He also states that motor oil classifies as GL-3 and GL-4 in gear protection. http://www.widman.biz/uploads/Transaxle_oil.pdf...
I guess I missed the paragraph or chart where Richard showed an actual chemical analysis of GL-4 MTF's and 5W30 Motor oils.
Originally Posted By: Richard Wittman
The original target audience for this paper was my group of friends in the Corvair world, but it applies to all cars and is particularly important for all classic cars...
While his write-up contains much useful information, the above was his target audience, and his article's main thrust was to differentiate between GL-4 and GL-5 gear oils.
A lubricant tested for GL-X protection levels is usually tested in an FZG machine and I have never seen any motor oil tested for GL-X equivalency in an FZG machine.
Motor oils were specified in earlier transmissions because because there were no application specific or Dedicated MTF's available.
Later, Texaco and Shell developed their line of Dedicated MTF's for GM, Chrysler, and Ford as factory fills in synchronized MT's.
Quote:
He also states that motor oil classifies as GL-3 and GL-4 in gear protection.
Again let me state:
Quote:
A lubricant tested for GL-X protection levels is usually tested in an FZG machine and I have never seen any motor oil tested for GL-X equivalency in an FZG machine.
When selecting an MTF, there are three main considerations:
1) Viscosity,
2) Anti-Wear (AW) additives to qualify for a GL-4 protection level,
3) Proper friction modification (FM) for smooth synchronizer assembly operation.
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I have been following this thread with great interest.
If I recall correctly you don't state whether the synchronisers have been checked for wear, or better still replaced outright in an attempt to remedy the poor shifting.
Back in the day when motor oils started to have friction modifiers used as a matter of course, there were some transmissions that had the factory fill oil(SAE 30 motor oil) replaced with what was believed to be the equivalent of the SAE 30 motor oil with a multigrade engine oil.
The friction modifiers in the engine oil ruined the synchroniser function in what was previously regarded as a fully functional transmission.
This situation continued for quite a long time before good lightweight gear oils became available in a GL-4 in an 80 W grade.
Out of desperation, we started to lap the synchroniser cone surface on the gears with old worn out synchroniser blocker rings and valve grinding paste in an attempt to roughen up the surface a little to help the blocker rings grip a bit.
But the main focus was to remove the friction modifiers contained in the motor oil from the conical surface on the gear because the friction modifiers had literally ruined the synchroniser function.
This worked out very well to fully restore synchroniser functionality after a rebuild with a service kit which included new and modified synchroniser blocker rings.
We only did it with our own transmissions because the task was too labour intensive to charge out to a customer as otherwise a new transmission was deemed to be a more cost effective option.
If I recall correctly you don't state whether the synchronisers have been checked for wear, or better still replaced outright in an attempt to remedy the poor shifting.
Back in the day when motor oils started to have friction modifiers used as a matter of course, there were some transmissions that had the factory fill oil(SAE 30 motor oil) replaced with what was believed to be the equivalent of the SAE 30 motor oil with a multigrade engine oil.
The friction modifiers in the engine oil ruined the synchroniser function in what was previously regarded as a fully functional transmission.
This situation continued for quite a long time before good lightweight gear oils became available in a GL-4 in an 80 W grade.
Out of desperation, we started to lap the synchroniser cone surface on the gears with old worn out synchroniser blocker rings and valve grinding paste in an attempt to roughen up the surface a little to help the blocker rings grip a bit.
But the main focus was to remove the friction modifiers contained in the motor oil from the conical surface on the gear because the friction modifiers had literally ruined the synchroniser function.
This worked out very well to fully restore synchroniser functionality after a rebuild with a service kit which included new and modified synchroniser blocker rings.
We only did it with our own transmissions because the task was too labour intensive to charge out to a customer as otherwise a new transmission was deemed to be a more cost effective option.
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