Well I definitely want the protection of a full synthetic oil, so the XL7500 is out. I need to check out Mobile but I do not remember seeing a 5w20.
5W20 and summer heat
- Thread starter flynavydiesel
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If you believe this, here's a little experiment I ran myself one time, that you may want to try yourself: When the temp outside has been below freezing and your vehicle has sat for several hours, take it for a nice easy drive for about 5 miles, and then park it, turn off the engine, wait a few minutes, and then CAREFULLY touch the oil pan. Now wait to the outside temp is about 90F, only run the AC full blast and drive it real hard for about 15 miles. Now park it, turn off the engine, wait a few minutes, and see if you can keep your finger on the oil pan for more than a millisecond without burning the skin off your finger.
Well...you also have to keep in mind that a well built Grp III is probably better than a crappy built Grp IV/V...so I wouldn't discount the XL7500 that easily. Also, the M1 0w20 is the syn oil Mobil recommends for Fords that specify 5w20 oil. They may even have Ford's blessing on this.
One last thing. Keep in mind that we split hairs for a business here.
Yep...Mobil 1 with SuperSyn 0W-20 exceeds the performance requirements of the Ford WSS-M2C-153H specification.
While it may not mean the oil is the hot stuff, at the very least it shows the thin oil is not the end of the world either, as others have predicted.quote:
Originally posted by 427Z06:
One other thing. Someone please explain this logic of getting a UAO on a particular oil in an engine that returns good UOAs on just about any oil and then claim that this proves this particular oil is the hot stuff.
I once was a skeptic of the xw20. I switched over my '99 F150 with the 4.6 to 5w20 at around 90,000 miles. Consumption remained the same as 5w30, and I got longer intervals with equivalent wear levels. I have no qualms about using an xw20 oil in an application where the manufactuer recommends it!
The moral of the story is: 5w20 will work fine. SO will 5w30.
It was interesting to note that the nearby Fleet Farm just started carrying about three or four more brands of 5w20 oils in the last month. Of course, I switch off Havoline 5w20 and now they sell it for 1.24 a quart! Anyone think demand isn't starting to pick up on these oils!?
I was a HUGE skeptic as well, and although I thought I'd never say this, I agree with you (with a twist)...I have absolutely no problem using a SYNTHETIC Xw20 in an application where it is recommended!
That's one of those Ford modular engines with tight aluminum main/rod bearings so I'm not surprised it worked well. Just curious, what kind of gas milage you get with your F150? I hear that engine gets great gas milage in those trucks.
There's been some concern with these thin oils used in the Ford modular engines on the timing chain tensioner. This part is made out of nylon and there has been some observations that this part will wear out quicker with a 5W-20 type of oil. I don't know, as I haven't taken apart one of these engines yet, but nonetheless, it is something to think about. Also, UOA's won't show this type of wear for what we are paying.
Just curious, how does the weight of the oil affect the timing chain and its longevity? I have no knowledge of these things so this is not an attempt to be a smart#$%!
HTHS is directly related to viscosity. THeir is a little varraiance due to VII's used and the various base stocks. THe problem with thin oils is that we know that 2.6-2.9 is the bare minimum HTHS that will sustain a reasonable valve train life.
If the oil starts life at 2.9 or 2.6 then you have no margin for error. If the manufactures outsourced to a company that skimped a bit on heat treating or the alloy then you are S.O.L.!!
If I had to run a 20Wt. oil I would want one with the most Moly,ZDDP,Boron and over based calcium I could find!
If the oil starts life at 2.9 or 2.6 then you have no margin for error. If the manufactures outsourced to a company that skimped a bit on heat treating or the alloy then you are S.O.L.!!
If I had to run a 20Wt. oil I would want one with the most Moly,ZDDP,Boron and over based calcium I could find!
"One other thing. Someone please explain this logic of getting a UAO on a particular oil in an engine that returns good UOAs on just about any oil and then claim that this proves this particular oil is the hot stuff."
You might want to reread my comment, 427Z06. I said "Here's JUST ONE EXAMPLE of how good the 5w-20's can be." I didn't say, "Here's a comprehensive study..." In an earlier thread I posted links to about a dozen 5w-20 UOAs, with each of them showing less than 10 ppm iron/lead/copper wear, not that that would ever appease the "thin oil is bad" crowd.
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"Here's a little experiment...drive for about 5 miles...then drive for 15 miles..."
So what you're saying 427Z06 is that oil sumps don't necessarily warm up in just 5 miles in Winter, and they get very hot after 15 miles in Summer, something we all know. The general rule I've heard is that oil temp lags behind coolant temp by about 5 minutes. What does any of this have to do with real-world driving trips longer than just a couple miles, including FND's cross-country trip in his Windstar? My point remains the same: If a cooling system limits the temp to 230F whether you're pulling a heavy trailer through Death Valley in August, or coasting down a long mountain grade in January, the engine oil is gonna be at the roughly the same temp regardless of the situation, simplifying year-round oil weight selection. A 1970 Jaguar, which would overheat at the mere mention of the word "Summer," is much more season-dependant on oil weight needs, unlike the Windstar.
[ May 18, 2004, 07:04 PM: Message edited by: TC ]
You might want to reread my comment, 427Z06. I said "Here's JUST ONE EXAMPLE of how good the 5w-20's can be." I didn't say, "Here's a comprehensive study..." In an earlier thread I posted links to about a dozen 5w-20 UOAs, with each of them showing less than 10 ppm iron/lead/copper wear, not that that would ever appease the "thin oil is bad" crowd.
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"Here's a little experiment...drive for about 5 miles...then drive for 15 miles..."
So what you're saying 427Z06 is that oil sumps don't necessarily warm up in just 5 miles in Winter, and they get very hot after 15 miles in Summer, something we all know. The general rule I've heard is that oil temp lags behind coolant temp by about 5 minutes. What does any of this have to do with real-world driving trips longer than just a couple miles, including FND's cross-country trip in his Windstar? My point remains the same: If a cooling system limits the temp to 230F whether you're pulling a heavy trailer through Death Valley in August, or coasting down a long mountain grade in January, the engine oil is gonna be at the roughly the same temp regardless of the situation, simplifying year-round oil weight selection. A 1970 Jaguar, which would overheat at the mere mention of the word "Summer," is much more season-dependant on oil weight needs, unlike the Windstar.
[ May 18, 2004, 07:04 PM: Message edited by: TC ]
Johnbrowning,
From the VOA section it looks like Mobile's 0W20 has good quantities of boron, ZDDP and Moly. So I am assuming that this would be a relatively safe choice in improving the longevity of the timing chain?
From the VOA section it looks like Mobile's 0W20 has good quantities of boron, ZDDP and Moly. So I am assuming that this would be a relatively safe choice in improving the longevity of the timing chain?
Did I quote you on this? No, I didn't. I made that statement because I see many people point to one UOA, sometimes not even their own, and then lambaste someone for recommending anything but the new 5w20s. If you think I was picking on you, then sorry, I wasn't.
I was trying to allude to the fact that this statement is a bit misleading. Just because the average temp gauge is reading in the normal range, tells you very little about the actual temperature of one's oil.
May I suggest a chill pill?
427Z06 said: I was trying to allude to the fact that this statement is a bit misleading. Just because the average temp gauge is reading in the normal range, tells you very little about the actual temperature of one's oil.
This is spot on. Factory gauges are heavily dampened. My WRX has an idiot water temp gauge that doesn't move from its "warm fuzzy" spot summer or winter. The oil temp will vary from 140F on a cold winter day to 200F pulling a grade in the summer.
I'm with those who would use a synthetic XW-20, the protection will be better than the best 30 weight conventional oils.
Ed
[ May 19, 2004, 12:40 AM: Message edited by: edhackett ]
This is spot on. Factory gauges are heavily dampened. My WRX has an idiot water temp gauge that doesn't move from its "warm fuzzy" spot summer or winter. The oil temp will vary from 140F on a cold winter day to 200F pulling a grade in the summer.
I'm with those who would use a synthetic XW-20, the protection will be better than the best 30 weight conventional oils.
Ed
[ May 19, 2004, 12:40 AM: Message edited by: edhackett ]
I can concur with the whole temp "dummy gauge" system thats in new car's.
Having access to my own Can Bus scanner (autoxray 4000) I can directly pull the temp information out of the OBD-II diagnostic port on the Mazda 6.
The temp gauge reaches the middle at 160F. It stays there until the temp gets above 230-240F.
The amount the coolant temp varies in a car is rediculous. If the gauge was an actual full sweep gauge, most consumers would bring their car into the dealer constantly, saying "My temp is going all over the place! Joe's car doesn't do this!"
I've seen as much as a 10-20F change in coolant temp from a 5-10 sec fan blast from the auxilary cooling fans.
Basically if that temp gauge ever starts moving up...your in serious trouble!
I really need to send in this 0w-20 Track UOA...man its such a pain to go to the post office sometimes!
Having access to my own Can Bus scanner (autoxray 4000) I can directly pull the temp information out of the OBD-II diagnostic port on the Mazda 6.
The temp gauge reaches the middle at 160F. It stays there until the temp gets above 230-240F.
The amount the coolant temp varies in a car is rediculous. If the gauge was an actual full sweep gauge, most consumers would bring their car into the dealer constantly, saying "My temp is going all over the place! Joe's car doesn't do this!"
I've seen as much as a 10-20F change in coolant temp from a 5-10 sec fan blast from the auxilary cooling fans.
Basically if that temp gauge ever starts moving up...your in serious trouble!
I really need to send in this 0w-20 Track UOA...man its such a pain to go to the post office sometimes!
You couldn't be more wrong. Been discussed before so I will simply suggest a search.
True. From what I understand (and seen first hand on the oil temp gauge of one car I owned), the temp of the oil in the sump is directly related to the load on the engine, e.g., a car that is running 75 mph with the coolant at 210 is going to have a lower sump temp than one running 130 mph with the coolant at 210. Likewise, a Ford F350 with a V10 running 75 mph unladen is going to have a lower sump temp than one running 75 mph and towing a 7000 lb boat.
All I can say is that in the Porsches and BMW I have owned, coolant and lube temps roughly tracked each other in steady-state, sustained driving. By that I don't mean they were the same temp, but that when one rose or fell a certain amount, the other would roughly track that change over time, allowing for delays such as when changing from level ground to a fast drive up a long uphill grade. Those cars had more than adequate cooling systems, and once the thermostat fully opened, the engine temps seemed roughly consistent whether it was 50F or 90F outside.
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