5.7 Hemi cams

[CarDocDude]

I have a 300C with a 5.7. Surprisingly it’s one of the most reliable vehicles I’ve ever owned….besides my Tacoma (if it wasn’t for rust it WOULD last forever).
I recently turned 145,000 miles and looking at new cars (and used) I decided to keep the 300 and “freshen” it up because I love it so much.
The Achilles heel (cam failure) was really the only thing I was concerned with. I put a new OE cam, lifters, rockers and shafts, timing components, and had the heads re-done.
All the roller lifters were perfect, however I did see some lobe deterioration just starting. See pics.

I’ve used 5-w20 Castrol Edge since new. I’ve switched to the Penzoil (born from NG) because a few on here tell me Castrol has a ****ty base stock.

Does anyone recommend I add a friction modifier? My OCI is about 5-6000 miles. I do drive hard but a lot of highway.
If so, what’s the consensus on a good additive?

TIA

 

[CarDocDude]

FYI I used to swear by Wynns Supreme. It truly had good anti friction benefits that the Wynns rep proved to me thru some demonstrations with the bearing/torque wrench test.
I can’t find it any more.

 

[JavierH19]

i assume a new cam is going in.

Eh friction modifiers aren't necessary. I'd use an euro rated oil they're more stout with ph/z and usually have some have good amounts of moly. A plain sn rated 20 grade can't be expected to protect that well and it didn't even for just a measly 145k. Valvoline euro is a pretty good.

Edit: i was gonna mention to use a diesel rated 15w-40 but he mentioned rust and that's in a cold place but you could use a ck rated oil as well. they're as if not a bit more stout than a euro grade and have a higher hths as well but maybe for the warmer half of the year.

 

[spasm3]

Good call. In your second pic, it looks like the cam is really starting to go. I was under the impression that the hemi cam problem was usually due to the needle bearings in the roller lifters going, then that lifter eats the cam. But you say the lifters were good. Good timing though to replace.

 

[OLEJOE]

I would say you caught it just in time. Was the cam lobe wear on the MDS cylinders ? While I was in there I believe I would have gotten rid of it anyway. I agree with the Euro. I’ve got a new 6.4 in a 2500 that is going to see some towing and I have some anxiety about possible cam/lifter problems happening.

 

[Kestas]

I've seen similar surfaces with failed bearings... many times. The surfaces show cold work (surface smearing) that progressed into surface-initiate spalling. That means that - for some reason - the rollers stopped rolling at that location, and were sliding while making metal-to-metal contact. This damage can occur even on properly hardened cam lobes. You may want to consider that the roller followers were not rolling properly. Or maybe even consider the rollers floated at higher rpms resulting in momentary skidding... maybe springs are weak or lifters hang up in the bore? Unfortunately, lube choice will not correct this condition.

 

[spasm3]

I would say you caught it just in time. Was the cam lobe wear on the MDS cylinders ? While I was in there I believe I would have gotten rid of it anyway. I agree with the Euro. I’ve got a new 6.4 in a 2500 that is going to see some towing and I have some anxiety about possible cam/lifter problems happening.

Same here, wondering if the cam is part of the problem, not just the lifters.

I'm thinking of running HPL lubricants oil, for the next change. Their premium plus has a ton of moly.

 

[OVERKILL]

The main point of failure is the needle bearings in the lifters, so you'll want to check them even if they look fine. Roll them by hand, see if there are any rough spots, I suspect there are. As @Kestas noted, this is the result of the roller ceasing to roll intermittently. When they stop completely, they wipe the lobe in short order, so it seems you caught it in good time here.

What year is the 300C BTW? The lifters have been redesigned I believe 3x now.

 

[OLEJOE]

I don’t want to get any arguments started but the HPL lubricants have no API certification. I understand their reasoning behind it but I am not willing to throw my new vehicle warranty out the window running a non API Certified oil even though it looks to be very good. I’m running the PUP 0W-40 currently but I’m thinking of going to the Ravenol.
And possibly moving up to a 5-40 since it’s a little warmer around here at times.

 

[spasm3]

I don’t want to get any arguments started but the HPL lubricants have no API certification. I understand their reasoning behind it but I am not willing to throw my new vehicle warranty out the window running a non API Certified oil even though it looks to be very good. I’m running the PUP 0W-40 currently but I’m thinking of going to the Ravenol.

Totally understand that. As @Kestas stated, oil may not matter here. Hpl has a lot, maybe more moly than redline, which some state makes the engine tick less.
I will have receipts for the SRT Pennzoil 0w-40 though .

 

[spasm3]

There is another theory I've read, that prolonged idling leads to the failures. Especially in construction site trucks. The theory is, prolonged idling does not sufficiently splash lube the cam.

 

[CarDocDude]

I’m not going to multi quote but here’s some info:

1. The engine ran perfect, no noises at all.
2. Every roller on every lifter was perfect….no surface damage to the roller and all needle bearings were tight and smooth.
3. I saw signs of failure beginning on both MDS and non MDS cylinders.
4. My engine is a later VVT model (2011). We never saw issues on the 03-08 non-VVT. I think the VVT has some to do with it cam failures. Someone suggest a higher flow oil pump is the fix but I still have 33psi at idle and almost 60psi above 2500 with a 200 degree oil temp.
5. In my experience the engines that idle extensively have the most roller failures.
My personal thought is those are the conditions where the roller skids across the lobe? Just my observation.

My engine hits redline almost daily. When I did this work I installed the latest and greatest valve springs along with the latest lifters (which are made in Germany). Looking at my particular engine I would have guessed it could be a metallurgy issue with cam manufacturing. IDK, the verdict is still out on these. But I’ve spent 2300.00 on repairs over 145,000 miles (keep in mind all the labor was me)…..I think that’s pretty good.

My next question is where can I get the Euro Valvoline? I don’t think over ever seen it on shelves.

 

[JavierH19]

There is another theory I've read, that prolonged idling leads to the failures. Especially in construction site trucks. The theory is, prolonged idling does not sufficiently splash lube the cam.

Yes i was thinking about saying this. not enough oil pressure and i've heard a 20 grade and even 30 just don't cut it for the hemis and pentastars. Always heard that a 40 grade can help prevent issues. More low rpm hot idle pressure. even my old worn 314k 6.0 has around 42psi of pressure at hot idle. Would dip down to 31 with a 5w-30.

 

[OLEJOE]

On the shelves at Walmart around here.

 

[JavierH19]

I’m not going to multi quote but here’s some info:

1. The engine ran perfect, no noises at all.
2. Every roller on every lifter was perfect….no surface damage to the roller and all needle bearings were tight and smooth.
3. I saw signs of failure beginning on both MDS and non MDS cylinders.
4. My engine is a later VVT model (2011). We never saw issues on the 03-08 non-VVT. I think the VVT has some to do with it cam failures. Someone suggest a higher flow oil pump is the fix but I still have 33psi at idle and almost 60psi above 2500 with a 200 degree oil temp.
5. In my experience the engines that idle extensively have the most roller failures.
My personal thought is those are the conditions where the roller skids across the lobe? Just my observation.

My engine hits redline almost daily. When I did this work I installed the latest and greatest valve springs along with the latest lifters (which are made in Germany). Looking at my particular engine I would have guessed it could be a metallurgy issue with cam manufacturing. IDK, the verdict is still out on these. But I’ve spent 2300.00 on repairs over 145,000 miles (keep in mind all the labor was me)…..I think that’s pretty good.

My next question is where can I get the Euro Valvoline? I don’t think over ever seen it on shelves.

Almost all walmarts ive been to have it on shelf its just a bit blended in with the rest but oils like mobil 0w-40fs and pennzoil platinum 0w-40 should also do the trick just fine. castrol 0w-40 aint bad. Pennzoil platinum euro L 5w-30 is also an option. Bordering on the edge of a 40 grade and more stout than the regular PP.

 

[OLEJOE]

There is another theory I've read, that prolonged idling leads to the failures. Especially in construction site trucks. The theory is, prolonged idling does not sufficiently splash lube the cam.

I think that’s the reasoning behind the MS-12633 2 year Vegas Taxi Cab Endurance test.
I don’t idle mine. I cut it off if it isn’t moving except at traffic lights. Drive thrus it’s cut off until I can move up or pull out.
And if it has sit for a couple of days without being driven, I prime it before starting.

 

[OVERKILL]

There is another theory I've read, that prolonged idling leads to the failures. Especially in construction site trucks. The theory is, prolonged idling does not sufficiently splash lube the cam.

Roller cams don't need much lube, because of the rollers. However, the lifter roller bearings need to be lubed, but that's done mostly by oil that makes its way past the lifter body/bore interface. Even at high RPM, given the block design in the HEMI, there isn't going to be much oil that gets splashed on the cam. There will however, be more oil that makes its way past the lifter body and onto the roller.

In some previous discussions on this I found evidence of drain holes in the bottom of the lifter bodies that would put some oil directly on the lifters, but pictures of this seem to be inconsistent, so I'm now reluctant to say that this is how it is done.

Idling of course puts hours on the engine, so if it has a defective lifter, even if the miles are lower, those hours are going to eventually lead to its failure.

 

[OVERKILL]

Yes i was thinking about saying this. not enough oil pressure and i've heard a 20 grade and even 30 just don't cut it for the hemis and pentastars. Always heard that a 40 grade can help prevent issues. More low rpm hot idle pressure. even my old worn 314k 6.0 has around 42psi of pressure at hot idle. Would dip down to 31 with a 5w-30.

Remember, oil pressure doesn't lubricate, it's just the indication of back-pressure in the system. 30psi or 40psi, the pump is positive displacement, so it is moving the same amount of oil.

 

[OVERKILL]

I’m not going to multi quote but here’s some info:

1. The engine ran perfect, no noises at all.
2. Every roller on every lifter was perfect….no surface damage to the roller and all needle bearings were tight and smooth.
3. I saw signs of failure beginning on both MDS and non MDS cylinders.
4. My engine is a later VVT model (2011). We never saw issues on the 03-08 non-VVT. I think the VVT has some to do with it cam failures. Someone suggest a higher flow oil pump is the fix but I still have 33psi at idle and almost 60psi above 2500 with a 200 degree oil temp.
5. In my experience the engines that idle extensively have the most roller failures.
My personal thought is those are the conditions where the roller skids across the lobe? Just my observation.

My engine hits redline almost daily. When I did this work I installed the latest and greatest valve springs along with the latest lifters (which are made in Germany). Looking at my particular engine I would have guessed it could be a metallurgy issue with cam manufacturing. IDK, the verdict is still out on these. But I’ve spent 2300.00 on repairs over 145,000 miles (keep in mind all the labor was me)…..I think that’s pretty good.

My next question is where can I get the Euro Valvoline? I don’t think over ever seen it on shelves.

On the rollers, so you put pressure on them while rolling them slowly to feel for any rough spots? Since these wear patterns look to be on the top of the lobes, where pressure will be the highest, and not on the base circle (which is where skating would happen if that were a problem) it does point to either a breakdown of the surface hardening of the lobe itself, or the roller intermittently not rolling in that location.

A dealer tech posted on here in the past and indicated that the cause of failure is poor surface hardening in the pin or roller. The needle bearings begin to produce a small groove in either the centre pin, or the roller. This creates a spot where it can "stick", and this eventually gets larger and larger until it completely stops rolling, at which point the lobe gets wiped-out in short order, as does the roller.

 

[CarDocDude]

On the rollers, so you put pressure on them while rolling them slowly to feel for any rough spots? Since these wear patterns look to be on the top of the lobes, where pressure will be the highest, and not on the base circle (which is where skating would happen if that were a problem) it does point to either a breakdown of the surface hardening of the lobe itself, or the roller intermittently not rolling in that location.

A dealer tech posted on here in the past and indicated that the cause of failure is poor surface hardening in the pin or roller. The needle bearings begin to produce a small groove in either the centre pin, or the roller. This creates a spot where it can "stick", and this eventually gets larger and larger until it completely stops rolling, at which point the lobe gets wiped-out in short order, as does the roller.

Obviously I can’t subject the roller to the same pressures it sees popping a valve open but I ran rollers from the perfect lobes and from the ones you saw and they were identical in smoothness and clearances as felt by hand. Without forensic examination, I can’t say any lifters failed.

I think I mentioned earlier I’ve been a dealer tech for years and have seen some carnage, especially the ones that were driven until they stopped.
The cams that fail also have some lobes that look like mine did without notable lifter failure on that lobe. I’ve also seen these same engines into the 200,000 range without failures. It’s still a debate.
So the consensus here is to stick with something in a Euro formula as in the Valvoline?