2021 Odyssey oil spec

[hemioiler]

Is thermostat or water pump electronically controlled? BMW’s go colder when tracking, pushing, towing than when coasting on HWY. DME has 4 predetermined operations for electric water pump or in newer models for electric thermostat.

Neither are electronic. There are some active grill shutters which close/open with heat, and the fan is electric. But I pulled out the shutters and use a 180 thermostat, the engine now runs almost too cool. If I still run into problems with heat (I won't), then the next step would be tuning the fan to come on sooner, but the only time the fan comes on is when it's idling in a drive through or stuck in stop and go, as soon as I get some air flow again the temps drop very quickly.

 

[lakestone]

Is thermostat or water pump electronically controlled?

It's a HEMI, of course not.

 

[lakestone]

Neither are electronic. There are some active grill shutters which close/open with heat, and the fan is electric. But I pulled out the shutters and use a 180 thermostat, the engine now runs almost too cool. If I still run into problems with heat (I won't), then the next step would be tuning the fan to come on sooner, but the only time the fan comes on is when it's idling in a drive through or stuck in stop and go, as soon as I get some air flow again the temps drop very quickly.

If I had to guess, you run into the cooling system limitation itself. Unless you're in a cold climate, in summer time even if you take out the thermostat, the coolant won't go under ~185F when driving on the highway. Am I right? Or close to right?

 

[burbguy82]

My dog slow Toyota Dynamic force 2.5 liter engine has 203 HP. Comparative to a 6.2l that would be 500+ HP. So engine size has nothing to do with it.

This GM thing is an engine issue not an oil issue. Plenty of engines run hundreds of thousands of miles on 0W-20 and now we have at least one 200K on 0W-16 on this board. All the GM thing proves is that you can run thicker in these engines without issue and its most likely a benefit.

I run 5W-30 in my dynamic force and am definitely a thicker is better believer, but its not going to solve actual issues. It might help it get through warranty.

There is a difference between 200 and 500hp though.

 

[Elmo Howe]

I remember being very hesitant about Ford's recommendation of 5W-20 in my then brand new 2003 4.6L Mercury Grand Marquis. The only 5W-20 on the Walmart shelves at that time was Motorcraft semi-syn, and so that's what it got for its 270,xxx mile life. It was still going strong, but went off to the salvage yard after the 2nd large deer strike.

Rudolph's rowdy cousins can be destructive, no ?

 

[hemioiler]

If I had to guess, you run into the cooling system limitation itself. Unless you're in a cold climate, in summer time even if you take out the thermostat, the coolant won't go under ~185F when driving on the highway. Am I right? Or close to right?

I'm not sure what you're asking. The trucks are designed/tuned to run hot, factory settings have the truck running about 107C on the highway unloaded. There is no cooling system limitation, it's just how it was programmed (probably for emissions and mpg reasons). Dropping in a 180 and removing the grill shutters (to keep air flow going) means the engine is now "tuned" to run cooler, the cooling system can easily keep up, but stock it is just asked to keep the engine hotter.

 

[hemioiler]

It's a HEMI, of course not.

The hemi had a DOD system (chrysler calls it MDS) back in 2005 already, so just remember that .

It's an old engine, but that's the attraction. Old skool, cast iron block, push rod, NA v8, all the good stuff you want in an engine that works.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

It's the lower rod bearing that is having the problem which I've never seen. After thinking on this for a while I'm thinking the clearance in the lower bearing is out of spec. Closer to the crank than the upper bearing starving the lower bearing from adequate oil circulation.

How does starvation work when thinner oil will more easily flow through small clearances?

 

[OVERKILL]

It's a HEMI, of course not.

Indeed. It's a stone age port injected engine.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

Indeed. It's a stone age port injected engine.

There’s something to be said for tech that was derived before special interests got involved.

 

[MrStamper]

Bearings are "self pumping", they generate their own oil wedge and draw from the galleries where the oil pump is providing a "head" of oil. Thinner oil flows through the bearing quicker, so the draw-down rate on the galleries is increased, couple this with increased leakage from all of the fixed orifices, and of course this is why you observe lower oil pressure. However, high pressure at the bearing galleries is not required, this is why engines without oil pumps can still function. Back in the day we even had engines that were gravity oiled.

I wouldn't call it "mist", it's the spray off the rod bearings.

Viscosity is directly related to temperature, which can change the realm in which lubrication is taking place in the engine. If you are familiar with the Stribeck curve:
View attachment 278075

We have parts operating in all three realms and some, like pistons and rings, that move between them, going from hydrodynamic to mixed to boundary and back again, depending on where they are in the bore and what stroke they are on. This is why the anti-scuff coating on piston skirts wears off over time. Increasing viscosity can shift where in the Stribeck curve a component is operating, for a given oil temperature, as it increases the MOFT.

Hydrodynamic is zero wear, this is where bearings are supposed to always operate. The Japanese OEM's, focused on fuel economy, fitting wider bearings, to allow them to tolerate some of the super thin oil grades we are now seeing, as a wider bearing can sustain an adequate MOFT with a thinner lubricant, while maintaining the same load carrying capacity. They found friction reduction in the mixed/boundary realm in certain parts of the engine, enhanced by various FM's and coatings, this improved fuel economy, which is what drove the pursuit of tinner lubricants.

My understanding of the GM issue, at least in part, is that due to manufacturing issues with the crankshaft, some of these engines are having bearings operating outside of the hydrodynamic realm with the spec 0W-20, which leads to wear, and eventually failure. The heavier lubricant provides a greater MOFT, which may postpone the manifestation of this issue.

Interesting, didn’t know about the wider bearings.

 

[lakestone]

I'm not sure what you're asking. The trucks are designed/tuned to run hot, factory settings have the truck running about 107C on the highway unloaded. There is no cooling system limitation, it's just how it was programmed (probably for emissions and mpg reasons). Dropping in a 180 and removing the grill shutters (to keep air flow going) means the engine is now "tuned" to run cooler, the cooling system can easily keep up, but stock it is just asked to keep the engine hotter.

I'm sorry for bringing this up, it's not my intention to derail this thread. I'll keep it short: when you remove the grille shutters and either install like a 160F or 180F thermostat, or no thermostat at all, you will notice that you can't get the coolant cooler than around 185F. That's the cooling system wall, or limitation. Every engine/cooling system has a wall like this. It's also called "cooling capacity". And for every engine it's different. That's what I was referring to.

 

[hemioiler]

I'm sorry for bringing this up, it's not my intention to derail this thread. I'll keep it short: when you remove the grille shutters and either install like a 160F or 180F thermostat, or no thermostat at all, you will notice that you can't get the coolant cooler than around 185F. That's the cooling system wall, or limitation. Every engine/cooling system has a wall like this. It's also called "cooling capacity". And for every engine it's different. That's what I was referring to.

I haven't experimented with running no thermostat, 180F = 82C, the coolant temp is locked to 85 so a few degrees higher than the thermostat rating. I don't know how cool the engine would get with no thermostat at all, could be this is as low as it goes.

 

[SC Maintenance]

There is a difference between 200 and 500hp though.

Yes, the GM 6.2l produces less HP per liter than the Toyota Dynamic Force Engine.

In fact, if you doubled the dynamic force 2.5l you would have pretty much the same HP as the 6.2l'

The Ford 5.0L that has been around for more than a decade I think has about the same HP and has been running on 0w-20 all this time.

The fact that an engine more than double the displacement that produces less than double the HP does not provide any excuse for its issues. Really 420HP is not all that much anymore honestly.

 

[Elmo Howe]

The hotter the oil the better it cools. Same goes for the coolant temperature.

Oil pressure is not a substitute for viscosity.

Flame suit on.

" Flame suit on " . Izzat BITOG-speak for putting a chastity belt on backwards ?

 

[BornSlippy]

Indeed. It's a stone age port injected engine.

Still has some life left. Stellantis is resuming production of the HEMI.

 

[lakestone]

I haven't experimented with running no thermostat, 180F = 82C, the coolant temp is locked to 85 so a few degrees higher than the thermostat rating. I don't know how cool the engine would get with no thermostat at all, could be this is as low as it goes.

I tried it once, a long time ago on a 2015 RAM 1500, no thermostat, no shutters, and once it got up to temperature it wouldn't go bellow 185F on the highway. This was a long time ago, I no longer have it.

 

[siriusc1024]

Many engines now have direct oil flow to pistons. There are piston squirters aiming oil at the piston underside and at BDC these squirters will often directly inject oil into a hollow cooling gallery within the piston. These engines will give oil flow in the con rod taking pressure off the rod bearing to directly supply the wrist pin and pin joint.

Mist is a surprisingly effective means of lubrication. Many large industrial plants like refineries have electric motors lubricated by a steady supply of oil mist fed through a centralized misting distribution system. These motors can last many, many hours— 150k hours isn’t unheard of. My understanding is that mist can sometimes lubricate *better* than full flow liquid and the mist not only lubricates wel, it drastically reduces windage and viscous pumping losses that would drag on the motors.

I don’t know that thicker oil necessarily means “less lubrication” but it certainly means more parasitic losses.

Those piston squirters are for cooling. Usually see them on turbo serial production engines. Extra lube is a secondary benefit.

 

[scoot]

Interesting, didn’t know about the wider bearings.

Do you think the new J35 V6 also has wider bearings or are you talking about the. 4 bangers ?

 

[scoot]

Do you think the new J35 V6 also has wider bearings or are you talking about the. 4 bangers ?

Sorry that comment was meant for Overkill