2015 Odyssey - Most expensive brake service ever...

[edyvw]

It’s driver related irrelevant to sizing. She’s heavy on brakes or maybe the load is heavy driving around.

I drive a 2015 Pilot relatively similar brakes and manage 50k mostly local driving. I coast to stoplights not drive fast and apply .

There are a lot of “if’s” there. Pilot/Odyssey has subpar brakes. There is no beating around bushes there. They are undersized. They are simple rotors, no high carbon etc. They don’t have exit ventilation grooves by the hub.
As I explained, it is not that Honda cannot make better brakes. Honda switched to ATE as main supplier few years back, but ATE will make for Honda what Honda wants. Larger rotors? More unsprung weight. More carbon, more cost.
So the calculation is how will majority of drivers exploit vehicle. VW pulled almost same trick. They cheapened rotors on Atlas. They cannot sustain aggressive driving. But, luckily they are big. Since there is cottage industry of aftermarket OEM parts for VW, ATE makes high carbon rotors, and problem solved. For Japanese vehicles it is not that easy unless one goes EBC route. But, EBC is generally expensive. IMO worth it, but expensive.

 

[edyvw]

I get that you can DIY the job and likely have a 30 ton press in your shop. Have you tried calling around in Phila, asking to have Lexus bushings (not BMW) pressed out that you are providing, and recorded the results?

My hunch? For what was $150 in 2016:

1). Many shops do not deal with customer parts, they will provide and it is $1700 at the dealer so they might actually do Mevotech for half

2). If they charge $100 like the Audi shop, they were not familiar with an LS430
And didn’t want to collect $100 but chance a problem occurring and shop time lost.

3). A Japanese indie familiar with my car charged $150. I sat and waited and it was done in 30 min. Win win as I cannot DIY this job.

Other than the above, we’d be totally guessing in seeking an answer to your question

I looked at that LCA, and cannot see why bushing cannot be pushed out. I would probably replace complete LCA.

 

[dubber09]

I had a good run with Raybestos E3 rotors and pads (on many car makes and models) for past about 3 years and then observed quality drop esp rotors, switched to Power Stop rotors and pads about 3 months ago.

 

[JeffKeryk]

As a brief update, it has been 9 months and 20K miles since the install of Honda front pads and Dynamic Friction Geospec rotors.
My niece does drive harder than many and we live near the Santa Cruz Mountains where highway hills can be demanding on brake components.

No issues at all. This has been proven to be a good combination, thus far. Thanks to @The Critic for his brake pad and rotor recommendation; I was at my wits end.

 

[edyvw]

As a brief update, it has been 9 months and 20K miles since the install of Honda front pads and Dynamic Friction Geospec rotors.
My niece does drive harder than many and we live near the Santa Cruz Mountains where highway hills can be demanding on brake components.

No issues at all. This has been proven to be a good combination, thus far. Thanks to @The Critic for his brake pad and rotor recommendation; I was at my wits end.

Good to know DFC’s are working OK. I have them on the rear on BMW, as that was the only option for my upgrade. Their finish is not the best, so gave me some doubts.

 

[John105]

I looked at that LCA, and cannot see why bushing cannot be pushed out. I would probably replace complete LCA.

They can. It’s what I paid $150 to have done. The question is who is willing to. Not the dealer, ie $1700 in 2016.

 

[edyvw]

They can. It’s what I paid $150 to have done. The question is who is willing to. Not the dealer, ie $1700 in 2016.

I really can’t wrap my mind around that number. I need to find time to compare to some other vehicles being done at tge dealer.

 

[John105]

I really can’t wrap my mind around that number. I need to find time to compare to some other vehicles being done at tge dealer.

Ah…dealer replaces the arms only. Sorry that it was not clear.

But the owners of these cars, like me, are often faced with these big numbers if the dealer is the only alternative and we cannot DIY. Toyota said $900 labor only with my parts. It’s just as bad when indies merely do what the dealer does for less.

I did have a hard time finding shops who who would press out the old and press in the new, when I am holding the OE parts. Not worth their time for $100-$150….

The game is way different with BMW. Likely all 5 indies would do it at varying prices…

 

[2strokeNorthstar]

Honda life. Driven hard the brakes start shaking after a few thousand miles and keep getting worse.

 

[edyvw]

Ah…dealer replaces the arms only. Sorry that it was not clear.

But the owners of these cars, like me, are often faced with these big numbers if the dealer is the only alternative and we cannot DIY. Toyota said $900 labor only with my parts. It’s just as bad when indies merely do what the dealer does for less.

I did have a hard time finding shops who who would press out the old and press in the new, when I am holding the OE parts. Not worth their time for $100-$150….

The game is way different with BMW. Likely all 5 indies would do it at varying prices…

No, I understood it is dealer. Still too steep.

 

[Nesterenko]

rocket surgery

That's a new one.

 

[John105]

Not sure with Honda, but with Lexus, Nissan, and GM, I’ve had great luck with Akebono ProACTs for at least 16 years. I likely jumped on a forum recommendation way bay when. Until recently, I’ve considered them cheap and bang for buck.

I’ve only used OE rotors and pads for the BMW, due to noise concerns (even OE rears squeak in 20k—did it when new, did it after my DIY). The GM I did use OE because they happened to be cheap in 2018. They were baked in nitrogen and had a gray white appearance throughout the entire disc, just like BMWs zinc coated, but the rust protection didn’t pan out. Unlike some others, great luck with Centric semi coated on Lexus.

Whatever the right combo for Honda is, that’s a good find.

P.s. Toyota OE was used by the new car dealer who sold me the used Lexus. Their rust coating also did not pan out—so why spend $120 ea shipped when Centric is maybe $60 or $70? And $27 in the rears When using OE imho there needs to be a reason

 

[edyvw]

Not sure with Honda, but with Lexus, Nissan, and GM, I’ve had great luck with Akebono ProACTs for at least 16 years. I likely jumped on a forum recommendation way bay when. Until recently, I’ve considered them cheap and bang for buck.

I’ve only used OE rotors and pads for the BMW, due to noise concerns (even OE rears squeak in 20k—did it when new, did it after my DIY). The GM I did use OE because they happened to be cheap in 2018. They were baked in nitrogen and had a gray white appearance throughout the entire disc, just like BMWs zinc coated, but the rust protection didn’t pan out. Unlike some others, great luck with Centric semi coated on Lexus.

Whatever the right combo for Honda is, that’s a good find.

P.s. Toyota OE was used by the new car dealer who sold me the used Lexus. Their rust coating also did not pan out—so why spend $120 ea shipped when Centric is maybe $60 or $70? And $27 in the rears When using OE imho there needs to be a reason

On BMW E90, I never had squeaking noise with Jurid.

 

[John105]

On BMW E90, I never had squeaking noise with Jurid.

A lot of stuff that was easily downloadable 25 years ago, people got smart. Kinda like with logins at work. Least privilege, add when needed. Wish I had saved a GM pdf on brakes and noise, and also a BMW pdf explaining oil consumption. These are from an engineering perspective, no BS accounting nor marketing perspectives.

GM had a PhD level paper explaining noise, and what I gleaned was groan vs squeal are different and why. Also back then all cars had a 12k adjustment warranty to include alignment, etc. Mfgs don’t want their dealer network tied up with cars during that period, for matters such as brake noise. So OE would have been engineered with noise in mind, at least 25 years ago. Now maybe just cost.

With my purchased new BMW, sure enough 19k is outside of a brake noise issue covered by warranty (bumper to bumper 4/50 doesn’t cover it). The dealer looked at it 2x as a courtesy. I saw yellow paste placed behind the pads. They took out all 4 pads, cleaned and reassembled everything.

When I installed new OE pads and rotors, no sound. Gone.

BUT, 20k later, back. I reckon this is pad to rotor and being semi metallic. It was all over the forum, and the rears, not fronts. “Squeak squeak squeak” when leaving a stop. I even tried no foot on brake then engaging the clutch to make sure no hill holder. Anyway I gave up years ago. Can’t replace pads and rotors every 20k. They are actually 50% gone at that mileage in the rears.

Edit p.s. when the squeak is present, replacing pads only cures it temporarily as well. I can’t fathom throwing out an OE BMW rotor at 20k. That’s beyond wasteful. Pads? If one can’t live with the noise, yes. They’d be 50% gone so throwing away half

Me replacing rotors at 40k was to level set for my own knowledge, and besides, pads and rotors together used to be the BMW way

 

[edyvw]

A lot of stuff that was easily downloadable 25 years ago, people got smart. Kinda like with logins at work. Least privilege, add when needed. Wish I had saved a GM pdf on brakes and noise, and also a BMW pdf explaining oil consumption. These are from an engineering perspective, no BS accounting nor marketing perspectives.

GM had a PhD level paper explaining noise, and what I gleaned was groan vs squeal are different and why. Also back then all cars had a 12k adjustment warranty to include alignment, etc. Mfgs don’t want their dealer network tied up with cars during that period, for matters such as brake noise. So OE would have been engineered with noise in mind, at least 25 years ago. Now maybe just cost.

With my purchased new BMW, sure enough 19k is outside of a brake noise issue covered by warranty (bumper to bumper 4/50 doesn’t cover it). The dealer looked at it 2x as a courtesy. I saw yellow paste placed behind the pads. They took out all 4 pads, cleaned and reassembled everything.

When I installed new OE pads and rotors, no sound. Gone.

BUT, 20k later, back. I reckon this is pad to rotor and being semi metallic. It was all over the forum, and the rears, not fronts. “Squeak squeak squeak” when leaving a stop. I even tried no foot on brake then engaging the clutch to make sure no hill holder. Anyway I gave up years ago. Can’t replace pads and rotors every 20k. They are actually 50% gone at that mileage in the rears.

Edit p.s. when the squeak is present, replacing pads only cures it temporarily as well. I can’t fathom throwing out an OE BMW rotor at 20k. That’s beyond wasteful. Pads? If one can’t live with the noise, yes. They’d be 50% gone so throwing away half

Me replacing rotors at 40k was to level set for my own knowledge, and besides, pads and rotors together used to be the BMW way

I went thru several Jurid pads, never had issues in rear. Had them combined with Pagid rotirs and I tracked those rotors, no issues. Now have Brembo calipers, so that problem is solved for good.

 

[John105]

I went thru several Jurid pads, never had issues in rear. Had them combined with Pagid rotirs and I tracked those rotors, no issues. Now have Brembo calipers, so that problem is solved for good.

From my experience, new pads, not a new sensor, gets rid of the noise. This tsb is from 2008

I suppose my dealer could have replaced the pads way back when, I guess they chose not to and did the clean reassemble thing (they don’t want to not be reimbursed for not following the directives)

SI B 34 08 08
Brakes October 2008
Technical Service

This Service Information bulletin supersedes SI B34 08 08 dated October 2008.

designates changes to this revision

SUBJECT
Brake Squeal from Pad Wear Sensor


MODEL
E90, E91, E92, E93 (3 Series)


SITUATION
Depending on the driving conditions, the occasional brake squeak and/or squeal is normal. The condition listed in this bulletin occurs during all light to moderate brake applications and is caused by contact between the brake pad wear sensor and the brake rotor/disc. This situation can occur on the front or rear axle brakes.

CAUSE
The geometry of the brake wear sensor, combined with individual driving habits, can result in a particular wear pattern which causes a squeaking and/or squealing noise whenever the brakes are applied with light to moderate force.

CORRECTION
In the case of a customer complaint, road test the vehicle to determine the source of the noise. If the noise is coming from the brake system, inspect the brake pad wear sensor of the affected axle. If the sensor is in contact with the rotor/disc, remove the sensor and drive the vehicle.

If the noise is not eliminated, further diagnosis is required to determine the cause of the noise.

If the noise is eliminated, replace the brake pads and wear sensor of the affected axle.

Measure and record the thickness of each of the brake pads which will be replaced. Refer to the Warranty section of this bulletin for important information regarding the correct usage of warranty defect codes based on brake pad thickness.

Refer to the appropriate Repair Instructions:

RA 34 11 000 "Removing and installing/replacing brake linings on both front disc brakes"

RA 34 21 200 "Removing and installing/replacing brake linings on both rear brake discs"

Whenever the brake pads are replaced, the CBS data must be reset accordingly.

PARTS INFORMATION
For the part numbers of brake components, please refer to EPC/ETK. Only replace parts on the affected axle as listed under CORRECTION in this bulletin.

WARRANTY INFORMATION
Covered under the terms of the BMW New Vehicle Limited Warranty or the BMW Maintenance Program.

Please refer to the following defect codes listed below, based on remaining brake pad thickness, to ensure proper coding of the claim.

Claims which are submitted using incorrect coding information will be subject to either a refusal or debit.

Brake pad thickness which measures between 7.5 mm and 3.8 mm should be claimed using the defect code below for the brake pad wear sensor noise .

Defect Code:
34 11 04 39 00
Front brake pad wear sensor unpleasant noises


Labor Operation:
Labor Allowance:
Description:

Refer to KSD


Defect Code:
34 21 19 39 00
Rear brake pad wear sensor unpleasant noises


Labor Operation:
Labor Allowance:
Description:

Refer to KSD

Brake pad thickness which measures 3.7 mm or less must be claimed using the following applicable BMW Maintenance Program defect code.

Defect Code:
34 11 00 77 MP
Replacing brake pads, front


Labor Operation:
Labor Allowance:
Description:

Refer to KSD


Defect Code:
34 21 00 77 MP
Replacing brake pads, rear


Labor Operation:
Labor Allowance:
Description:

Refer to KSD

Brake pad thickness which measures greater than 7.5 mm will not have a brake pad wear sensor that contacts the brake disc.

If these vehicles have a brake noise complaint, further diagnosis is required to determine the root cause. If diagnosis determines that all the brake components are performing adequately, but the vehicle still exhibits a brake noise which is constant (not intermittent) and reproducible, then the appropriate defect codes to use are listed below.

Defect Code:
34 00 01 39 00
Front axle brakes squeaking


Labor Operation:
Labor Allowance:
Description:

Refer to KSD


Defect Code:
34 00 11 39 00
Rear axle brakes squeaking


Labor Operation:
Labor Allowance:
Description:

Refer to KSD

If the brake discs require replacement (as outlined to the Repair Manual Instructions), claim with the repair defect codes listed here for applicable warranty repairs or the appropriate BMW Maintenance Program defect code.

http://www.bmwtis.com/tsb/bulletins/...p/B340808g.htm

 

[edyvw]

From my experience, new pads, not a new sensor, gets rid of the noise. This tsb is from 2008

I suppose my dealer could have replaced the pads way back when, I guess they chose not to and did the clean reassemble thing (they don’t want to not be reimbursed for not following the directives)

SI B 34 08 08
Brakes October 2008
Technical Service

This Service Information bulletin supersedes SI B34 08 08 dated October 2008.

designates changes to this revision

SUBJECT
Brake Squeal from Pad Wear Sensor


MODEL
E90, E91, E92, E93 (3 Series)


SITUATION
Depending on the driving conditions, the occasional brake squeak and/or squeal is normal. The condition listed in this bulletin occurs during all light to moderate brake applications and is caused by contact between the brake pad wear sensor and the brake rotor/disc. This situation can occur on the front or rear axle brakes.

CAUSE
The geometry of the brake wear sensor, combined with individual driving habits, can result in a particular wear pattern which causes a squeaking and/or squealing noise whenever the brakes are applied with light to moderate force.

CORRECTION
In the case of a customer complaint, road test the vehicle to determine the source of the noise. If the noise is coming from the brake system, inspect the brake pad wear sensor of the affected axle. If the sensor is in contact with the rotor/disc, remove the sensor and drive the vehicle.

If the noise is not eliminated, further diagnosis is required to determine the cause of the noise.

If the noise is eliminated, replace the brake pads and wear sensor of the affected axle.

Measure and record the thickness of each of the brake pads which will be replaced. Refer to the Warranty section of this bulletin for important information regarding the correct usage of warranty defect codes based on brake pad thickness.

Refer to the appropriate Repair Instructions:

RA 34 11 000 "Removing and installing/replacing brake linings on both front disc brakes"

RA 34 21 200 "Removing and installing/replacing brake linings on both rear brake discs"

Whenever the brake pads are replaced, the CBS data must be reset accordingly.

PARTS INFORMATION
For the part numbers of brake components, please refer to EPC/ETK. Only replace parts on the affected axle as listed under CORRECTION in this bulletin.

WARRANTY INFORMATION
Covered under the terms of the BMW New Vehicle Limited Warranty or the BMW Maintenance Program.

Please refer to the following defect codes listed below, based on remaining brake pad thickness, to ensure proper coding of the claim.

Claims which are submitted using incorrect coding information will be subject to either a refusal or debit.

Brake pad thickness which measures between 7.5 mm and 3.8 mm should be claimed using the defect code below for the brake pad wear sensor noise .

Defect Code:
34 11 04 39 00
Front brake pad wear sensor unpleasant noises


Labor Operation:
Labor Allowance:
Description:

Refer to KSD


Defect Code:
34 21 19 39 00
Rear brake pad wear sensor unpleasant noises


Labor Operation:
Labor Allowance:
Description:

Refer to KSD

Brake pad thickness which measures 3.7 mm or less must be claimed using the following applicable BMW Maintenance Program defect code.

Defect Code:
34 11 00 77 MP
Replacing brake pads, front


Labor Operation:
Labor Allowance:
Description:

Refer to KSD


Defect Code:
34 21 00 77 MP
Replacing brake pads, rear


Labor Operation:
Labor Allowance:
Description:

Refer to KSD

Brake pad thickness which measures greater than 7.5 mm will not have a brake pad wear sensor that contacts the brake disc.

If these vehicles have a brake noise complaint, further diagnosis is required to determine the root cause. If diagnosis determines that all the brake components are performing adequately, but the vehicle still exhibits a brake noise which is constant (not intermittent) and reproducible, then the appropriate defect codes to use are listed below.

Defect Code:
34 00 01 39 00
Front axle brakes squeaking


Labor Operation:
Labor Allowance:
Description:

Refer to KSD


Defect Code:
34 00 11 39 00
Rear axle brakes squeaking


Labor Operation:
Labor Allowance:
Description:

Refer to KSD

If the brake discs require replacement (as outlined to the Repair Manual Instructions), claim with the repair defect codes listed here for applicable warranty repairs or the appropriate BMW Maintenance Program defect code.

http://www.bmwtis.com/tsb/bulletins/...p/B340808g.htm

Ah, no sensors. Got rid of that junk