2013 Sienna 2GR-FE: int. codes for ECU, now cyl 6 codes and rough

[Craig in Canada]

Hi all - just throwing this out there for folks with more Toyota experience than I have. This isn't my personal vehicle, but I take care of it.

This is a 2013 Sienna LE FWD w/ 2GR-FE with around 240,000km on it at this time.

Two years ago we got a CEL which read out as:

• P0607 - ECM performance problem
• P1604 - Startability

There were never any actual performance problems and if the code was cleared, it would stay away for 6-9 months and then recur. Once, until cleared. Lots of google hits saying "sometimes this happens".

Until earlier this year it had what I believe to be the original factory plugs and coils. Because this job involves pulling the cowl and intake manifold I ordered parts but the job kept getting put off as never the next thing to do. Finally this May we tackled it. It went fine. Engine performance was fine. But, the following happened:

While preparing to ensure I was ready for the job, I pulled the coil and then the plug from cylinder F. Just checking to see if anything was seized, whether there was oil in the plug tubes etc... Everything was clean and super easy.

In the next couple of days it threw a P0356 Ignition coil F, primary/secondary circuit malfunction. That's the one I touched. I swapped coil B and F, cleared the code, and it didn't return.

A few weeks later I did the job. New coil boots, new headshells on the coil connectors (genuine Toyota), new Denso Double Iridium plugs (OE spec from Rockauto), coils restored to original locations, new gaskets, torques by the book. After re-adaptation everything was great. No oil in the tubes. No gotchas. Everything seemed great.

After several weeks, P0356 again. Swapped B and F again and cleared the codes. It went away for 6 months.

Now last week:

• P0138 Heated O2 sensor 2, bank 1 high voltage (looking it up, sensor indicated rich running >20s, from my interpretation)
• P0356 Ignition coil F primary/secondary
• P0607 ECM performance problem

Swapped coil F and D. Problem fixed for weeks. Then it returned. The above codes plus now it is sometimes obviously missing a cylinder.

• The P0607s have been happening every 6-9 months for years
• The coil codes stay with the cylinder and don't follow the coil
• The first P0356 didn't happen until I touched something
• All the plugs were replaced between the first P0356 and any following ones
• I've double checked the harness for any physical damage, frayed wires, cleaned connectors
• I pulled the plug on cyl F and it MIGHT have been a little loose (torqued to the 13 ftlb spec during the job). Looks fine, cylinder looks fine, reinstalled it and all the codes went away for the best part of a week.

I'm concerned we might actually have an ECU/ECM problem affecting cyl 6. Thoughts on what I should do? Thinking about:

• order one new Denso coil and another new plug to try in cyl F
• grabbing the multimeter and checking voltage/resistance at the coil plug according to some online info I found
• possible injector issue? I'd expect the rough running and P0138, but not the coil malfunction (often running perfectly despite the code)

I have no idea how to properly identify, locate, and program a suitable used Sienna/2GR-FE ECU.

Any advice or "common problems" similar to this I'm unaware of due to lack of experience? Pointers to other threads or videos welcome too. Started down the google rabbit hole - no eurekas yet.

 

[edyvw]

IMO, coils and O2 sensors are a must here before drilling into ECU.
I am assuming 02"s were never changed? Change all of them, pre and post cat ones.

 

[Patrick0525]

I have read that going long on the spark plug change interval > 190,000 km or 120,000 mi stresses out the ignition coil pack because the spark plug gap got significantly larger. I did my set at 120k mi.

 

[GSCJR]

@Craig in Canada, check the health of your battery including the terminals and connections. Next, check your grounds and their connections; good luck!

 

[Number_35]

@Craig in Canada, am I correct that you didn't replace the coils yet?

 

[Craig in Canada]

Hi all. Thank you. Responses below.

IMO, coils and O2 sensors are a must here before drilling into ECU.
I am assuming 02"s were never changed? Change all of them, pre and post cat ones.

Before the car was purchased from the seller (~5 years ago) it threw a CEL for an O2 error and at least that one sensor was replaced before purchase. I don't think I saved the screenshot from my scanner to know which one (I scanned every vehicle we looked at).

I had not jumped to replacing all coils because my coil code did not move with the coil, but stayed with the cylinder. No argument that coils would not be unreasonable at this mileage. My N55 F10 is at half the mileage and is on fourth set of plugs and third set of coils LOL.

My initial thoughts were that the O2 code was valid, not pointing to a faulty O2, and due to unburned fuel from ignition problems in cyl F. As mentioned, this past weekend the engine was operating down one cylinder for 20 minutes, then it came back. I'm not 100% clear if the cylinder injection is being shut down by the ECU (hope so). There was never a flashing CEL. It was the middle of a highway trip and with the CEL not flashing pressed on for the time being to get back home.

I have read that going long on the spark plug change interval > 190,000 km or 120,000 mi stresses out the ignition coil pack because the spark plug gap got significantly larger. I did my set at 120k mi.

As above - the fact that the coil error stays with cyl F, before and after the plugs were changed, has led me to hold off on coils for now. Perhaps I will proceed with one new coil and if it makes the cyl F errors stop permanently, then replace the other 5 so they match.

I'm trying not to use the parts cannon as a diagnostic tool. A set of coils here even from Rockauto would be ~$500+tax. If the error followed the coil that would be a different matter.

@Craig in Canada, check the health of your battery including the terminals and connections. Next, check your grounds and their connections; good luck!

Battery is decent. I replaced it a couple of years ago. Spec on 24F is 650CCA I think and my BA9 reports 572CCA 5.64mOhm just last week. Connections are clean. Chassis grounds? Hmm, haven't laid eyes on them. Haven't spotted anything green, corroded or degraded while looking around. The engine compartment is kept cleaner than average. I'll see if I can locate the specific ground points to inspect in online service info. Thanks.

@Craig in Canada, am I correct that you didn't replace the coils yet?

You are correct - I have swapped coils around to see if the coil code follows the coil and it says with the cylinder. This cylinder (F) started to throw occasional codes before and after the plugs were all replaced. Before tackling pulling the intake manifold and all that, I took apart cyl F to see if I was in for any major challenges and needed more parts, tools or time than I initially thought. Everything was easy, except the little retaining clip on the coil connector broke, leading me to replace all of the coil headshells with Toyota replacements. You just release the pins from the old headshell and click them into the new. When I did that first disconnect is when we started getting the first coil F codes. They would come back every few weeks/months even with new plugs and swapping coils.

Anyone know if getting access to Techstream would tell me more than a generic OBD code scanner?

 

[edyvw]

O2’s should always be replaced as a set. They get lazy and there will be discrepancies if one is new and other one is old.
BMW is hard on coils especially if you don’t use OE ones. Also, N55 is DI engine, 2GR-FE is not. In DI Toyota engines, spark plugs are also changed every 60k.

 

[Patrick0525]

O2’s should always be replaced as a set. They get lazy and there will be discrepancies if one is new and other one is old.
BMW is hard on coils especially if you don’t use OE ones. Also, N55 is DI engine, 2GR-FE is not. In DI Toyota engines, spark plugs are also changed every 60k.

Agree, what an unneeded expense on my RX 350.
The Toyota engineers also added a vacuum pump and a DI high pressure pump to the 2GR-FXS. More expensive stuff to replace.

 

[edyvw]

Agree, what an unneeded expense on my RX 350.
The Toyota engineers also added a vacuum pump and a DI high pressure pump to the 2GR-FXS. More expensive stuff to replace.

Has to have it.

 

[Craig in Canada]

O2’s should always be replaced as a set.

No disagreement. If I was doing the work, I would have. That was ~5 years ago that the work was done. No codes except ECM performance and startability (despite no change in operation) since then until all this cyl F stuff the last few months.

The catch with me is whether the O2 code is cause or effect, and I've been thinking the latter. Even at Rockauto prices, the weak CAD/USD exchange means that 6 Denso coils and 4 Denso O2 sensors is almost $1100 + tax + shipping just for parts. And I'm starting to think I probably also need to pull the IM again to do the upstream O2 sensor for the rear bank. If I do all that and the same cyl F code pops up 2 weeks later, I will be.... let's say "unpopular" with the owner.

[ EDIT: though a P0138 is related to downstream - if it was unburned fuel due to ignition issues, I'd expect to see weirdness in the upstream first. Hmmm ]

So far I'm thinking that I'll order one Denso coil and put it in location F, and do some voltage and continuity checks on the harness at location F. Clear the codes and see what happens. If cyl F stays clear, plan to get the other 5 coils because something about cyl F was enough to push any one of the old coils over the edge (coil code stayed with cylinder). If cyl F coil code comes back, then it's definitely not the coil (or I'm not counting to 'F' properly - although I've verified numerous times). Maybe then O2S can be scheduled as PM when the warmer weather returns.

 

[dogememe]

Time to clear codes and trade it in haha. Sounds frustrating.

 

[KrisZ]

I highly doubt it’s the coil. If you swapped it around and the misfire code still stays on the same cylinder, then it’s not the coil. Don’t throw good money at the problem.
Did you inspect the coil connector? Perhaps you pulled the wires on the connector the first time you removed it to check the spark plug and the coil.

 

[clinebarger]

Each coil (Ignitor) sends out a reference signal that the coil fired to the ECM, All six reference signals are sent on the same circuit....All spliced/daisy chained together.

If the code didn't follow the coil to a different cylinder (Would set a P0354 for #4 if the coil was faulty)....You have a connection or wiring issue.

*Check #6 coil connector for spread or pushed terminals
*I would imagine #6 reference is at the end of the daisy chain for that bank

 

[edyvw]

How much are going Bosch O2’s?

 

[The Critic]

*Check #6 coil connector for spread or pushed terminals
*I would imagine #6 reference is at the end of the daisy chain for that bank

This. It isn’t difficult to cause a pin fitment issue when releasing the terminals from the connector housing. The terminals are fragile. Sometimes the terminals do not easily release and if you give them persuasion, you will damage them; don’t ask me how I know. If the terminals look less than perfect, I would consider doing a new pigtail on #6. Dorman sells them.

 

[Patrick0525]

This. It isn’t difficult to cause a pin fitment issue when releasing the terminals from the connector housing. The terminals are fragile. Sometimes the terminals do not easily release and if you give them persuasion, you will damage them; don’t ask me how I know. If the terminals look less than perfect, I would consider doing a new pigtail on #6.

Dorman Products - 645-940

Ignition Coil Connector

www.dormanproducts.com

 

[Craig in Canada]

I highly doubt it’s the coil. If you swapped it around and the misfire code still stays on the same cylinder, then it’s not the coil. Don’t throw good money at the problem.
Did you inspect the coil connector? Perhaps you pulled the wires on the connector the first time you removed it to check the spark plug and the coil.

I have always felt it interesting that the cyl F codes started as soon as I performed the "test" disassembly of those parts, but afterwards moved the coils, replaced the plugs and the connector shells.

Each coil (Ignitor) sends out a reference signal that the coil fired to the ECM, All six reference signals are sent on the same circuit....All spliced/daisy chained together.

If the code didn't follow the coil to a different cylinder (Would set a P0354 for #4 if the coil was faulty)....You have a connection or wiring issue.

*Check #6 coil connector for spread or pushed terminals
*I would imagine #6 reference is at the end of the daisy chain for that bank

Ah! THIS is the kind of vital tidbit of info I was hoping to coax out by making a post! I have cancelled my inflight order for a new coil and plug while I can explore this idea further. I've cleaned the cyl F connectors several times with cleaner and, at brief inspection, everything looks OK. Knowing the above, I will give it more serious inspection.

I am curious whether anyone reading can confirm whether a reference signal wiring issue would always present as cyl F (e.g. I could have a harness problem on any of the 6 cylinders and they would all show as F) or whether I can trust the code pointer to F in this case. It is not realistic to pull the cowl and intake manifold just to "look".

This. It isn’t difficult to cause a pin fitment issue when releasing the terminals from the connector housing. The terminals are fragile. Sometimes the terminals do not easily release and if you give them persuasion, you will damage them; don’t ask me how I know. If the terminals look less than perfect, I would consider doing a new pigtail on #6. Dorman sells them.

For clarity, I used this part and not the pigtails in the work I did this past spring.

Release the clip, unlock the connector, release each pin one by one, click pin into the new housing, set the lock. It all (seemed) to go extremely smoothly. No drama, no difficulty. But, in light of all this, it's time for a magnifying glass and possibly some prodding to attempt to tighten (e.g. expand male pins, compress female sockets). Everything is absolutely clean and not frayed.

 

[clinebarger]

I am curious whether anyone reading can confirm whether a reference signal wiring issue would always present as cyl F (e.g. I could have a harness problem on any of the 6 cylinders and they would all show as F) or whether I can trust the code pointer to F in this case. It is not realistic to pull the cowl and intake manifold just to "look".

The ECM knows which IGF/Reference signal is missing, As a signal is sent every time the Ignitor fires the coil, See the 2 scope snapshots below.

#6 is on the front bank....That sucks if you were concentrating on cylinder #5??

 

[Craig in Canada]

The ECM knows which IGF/Reference signal is missing, As a signal is sent every time the Ignitor fires the coil, See the 2 scope snapshots below.

#6 is on the front bank....That sucks if you were concentrating on cylinder #5??

Thanks for the confirmation. So that "probably" means that I can trust the coil location that is indicated by the code as the place to focus on the harness....right? When you mentioned that it was daisy-chained that got me concerned that certain types of faults might always be reported as one end of the chain because the ECM doesn't know.

I was/am looking at the correct cylinder for F. Its easy accessibility was what led me to "test" disassembly in that location, like, 10 months ago before doing the plugs on all cylinders. I just wonder why it's decided to start taking a total fit 5-6 months after the work was all completed. Being cold or fully warmed up doesn't seem to affect whether it is content and working perfectly or running on 5 cylinders.

Do you happen to know which cylinder is physically in the wiring daisy chain prior to F? D (same bank) or E (opposite bank)? The fault could also be there I would guess.

I will break out the multimeter and magnifying glass I have some concern that a simple connector/wire issue could intermittently keep the ECM from missing the reference signal from coil F, yes, but why is it now running down a cylinder sometimes? Unless more than one pin is suffering the same problem and now it's impacting the actual ignition pulse.

Can't get my hands on it tonight, I don't think, but tomorrow I hope.

 

[Craig in Canada]

It was running yesterday and today sometimes fine and CEL-free, sometimes with CEL but running fine, sometimes on 5 cylinders. Got my hands on it briefly this evening. Manipulating the connector on coil F while the engine was running and under load (used reverse with parking and regular brakes applied by a person in the car) one could perceive the pattern of missing/running fine changing. This wasn't something I had tried before (duh!).

I shut it down and checked a few things, including one more D<->F coil swap - same. Problem is in the harness/connector and not the coil.

Read the codes - cyl F coil error codes only, no O2 sensor codes or ECM malfunction codes.

De-pinned the cyl F connector shell again and inspected all of the wires, crimps and the pins themselves. Studied how the metal was bent to form the contacts. Got a tiny pick tool into the pin to press/spread the leaf of the contact down to increase the clamping force of the pin itself. Re-pinned the headshell, shot in some contact enhancer, cleared codes and started it up.

I can no longer make it stumble by manipulating the connector at cyl F like before. Let's see if it stays that way. I ran out of light and time to try anything more.

So, as @The Critic says, these pins can get messed up and cause connection issues. In my case, 6 months down the road (assuming I have now fixed it). And I didn't do anything but disconnect and reconnect the connector at the time that initially caused the occasional cyl F error codes to start (the test disassembly of one coil/spark plug). I didn't mess with the pins or head shells whatsoever at that time.

Even if this fixes it, I may put 6 coils and the upstream O2 sensors (if the downstream ones don't throw any more codes) on a list for when warm weather returns.