2011 GT 5.0 L Mustang

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
I always recommend installing a fully functional oil pressure gauge in any modified engine if the car is not already so equipped.
Becoming familiar with the OP characteristics of your engine is a prerequisite to making an informed engine oil choice as far as an oil's viscosity is concerned.
In particular one should know under what conditions the oil pump go into by-pass mode. Even with the spec' 20wt oil, this will be most of the time at higher rev's until the oil temp's have climbed sufficiently.
As a freind of mine discovered when he installed a S/C on his NSX, oil temp's did not increase that much even during fast steet use. The reason, and this applies to most high performance cars, is that you can't keep the engine on the boil for long enough to start increasing the bulk oil temp's and the second you back off the oil quickly returns to normal.

Running a heavier oil lowers the oil temp's when the oil pump will go into by-pass mode and running an oil two grades heavier than spec' may mean you can never use maximum rev's without going into by-pass. If that's the case, using the heavier oil has become counter-productive.
It is an too common newbie mistake to assume a more powerful engine automatically requires a heavier oil.

My advise is to stick with the spec' oil your running now and establish first for yourself whether you need something heavier for the way you use your car. And be assured that even with the S/C installed, driven normally, even with occational WOT bursts, the spec' oil is perfectly fine.


This same engine, but in BOSS 302 trim making HP in the mid 400's, spec's 5w50 FWIW. And IT has a factory oil cooler

He's not going to damage the engine going to 0w40. But he COULD damage the engine if he runs 0w20/5w20 and is able to push the oil temps beyond the lubricant's ability to protect the engine.

So while I agree that without an oil pressure gauge (and oil temperature gauge) we are all just guessing, choosing to err on the slightly heavier side of things with the 0w40 is far safer (and potentially far less expensive) than erring on the thin side and spinning some con-rod bearings.

 

[CATERHAM]

As I explained there is no way the installation of a S/C is going to cause the oil temp's to rise significantly during street or strip use.
If he doesn't have an OP gauge by all means run a premium 5w30 synthetic which quite frankly will give him all the viscosity reserve protection he could ever encounter short of taking the car to the track (road racing).
A 40wt oil is OVERKILL (pun intended) for the street.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
As I explained there is no way the installation of a S/C is going to cause the oil temp's to rise significantly during street or strip use.
If he doesn't have an OP gauge by all means run a premium 5w30 synthetic which quite frankly will give him all the viscosity reserve protection he could ever encounter short of taking the car to the track (road racing).
A 40wt oil is OVERKILL (pun intended) for the street.


Right, but Ford spec's 5w50 for all supercharged modular applications, and even for N/A applications like the BOSS 302. So WILL he elevate oil temps just by increasing his power density beyond stock? Probably not. But Ford obviously saw the potential for it to occur and to be significant enough that they spec'd an oil THREE grades heavier for those applications.

Mobil 1 0w40 is a very light 40-weight

Nothing wrong with a little overkill if it prevents something like a rod bearing failure.

 

[Garak]

Does the supercharger supplier offer any recommendations?

 

[Gene K]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
As I explained there is no way the installation of a S/C is going to cause the oil temp's to rise significantly during street or strip use.
If he doesn't have an OP gauge by all means run a premium 5w30 synthetic which quite frankly will give him all the viscosity reserve protection he could ever encounter short of taking the car to the track (road racing).
A 40wt oil is OVERKILL (pun intended) for the street.


Right, but Ford spec's 5w50 for all supercharged modular applications, and even for N/A applications like the BOSS 302. So WILL he elevate oil temps just by increasing his power density beyond stock? Probably not. But Ford obviously saw the potential for it to occur and to be significant enough that they spec'd an oil THREE grades heavier for those applications.

Mobil 1 0w40 is a very light 40-weight

Nothing wrong with a little overkill if it prevents something like a rod bearing failure.

Well their are some differences in the Boss Lower End (Rods & Pistons) and it would not surprise me if the oil pump bypass pressure is one of them as well since they intended it to run higher viscosity oil in conjunction with an oil cooler.

However if your going to an Open Track Event with a standard 5.0L I would definitely use a higher viscosity oil as temps close to 300F are easily obtainable without an oil cooler.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Gene K
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

However if your going to an Open Track Event with a standard 5.0L I would definitely use a higher viscosity oil as temps close to 300F are easily obtainable without an oil cooler.

Yes, but the point is he's not, so why all this heavy oil talk?
With the expense of the S/C installation an OP gauge should be manditory. IMO it's should be part of the package.
Since one function of an OP gauge is effectively that of a viscometer, on the street he will be able to stick with the spec' oil if he wanted to. The occational 10 or 15 second WOT blast won't noticeably raise the bulk oil temp's because it can't be sustained. Even cruising at 100 mph (he might be able to get away with it out west) won't raise oil temp's any higher than the stock car.

I mentioned initially that I'm in favour of running a somewhat heavier oil due to the increased power but that can be acommplished without actually using a heavier oil. How? By simply raising the minimum OP you're willing to accept at elevated rev's. I don't know what the minimum optimum OP is for the stock engine but add 5 psi or so to that limit to inhance the safety margin.
In normal street driving the OP should still be above that raised minimum level. With experience the driver will know how much he can dip into the power available and for how long.
If he can't use maximum power as much as he would like without testing his set minimum OP level, then he could consider using a heavier oil.
I should note here that OP correlates with HTHSV so even a difference of 0.1cP will be noticeable. A full grade or 0.3-0.4cP will increase the OP significantly; something to keep in mind when fine tuning the oil viscosity to your application.
And remember the lubrication axiom; "As thin as possible, as thick as necessary".

 

[JasonC]

I would worry more about who is tuning your car and how safe the power level is than stressing so much over the oil. I have a 2012 GT and have read all about the #8 cylinder issues.

 

[LeakySeals]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
I always recommend installing a fully functional oil pressure gauge in any modified engine if the car is not already so equipped.
Becoming familiar with the OP characteristics of your engine is a prerequisite to making an informed engine oil choice as far as an oil's viscosity is concerned.
In particular one should know under what conditions the oil pump go into by-pass mode. Even with the spec' 20wt oil, this will be most of the time at higher rev's until the oil temp's have climbed sufficiently.
As a freind of mine discovered when he installed a S/C on his NSX, oil temp's did not increase that much even during fast steet use. The reason, and this applies to most high performance cars, is that you can't keep the engine on the boil for long enough to start increasing the bulk oil temp's and the second you back off the oil quickly returns to normal.

Running a heavier oil lowers the oil temp's when the oil pump will go into by-pass mode and running an oil two grades heavier than spec' may mean you can never use maximum rev's without going into by-pass. If that's the case, using the heavier oil has become counter-productive.
It is an too common newbie mistake to assume a more powerful engine automatically requires a heavier oil.

My advise is to stick with the spec' oil your running now and establish first for yourself whether you need something heavier for the way you use your car. And be assured that even with the S/C installed, driven normally, even with occational WOT bursts, the spec' oil is perfectly fine.


When you refer to bypass, does that include the filter? Under certain conditions the oil does not get filtered?

 

[CATERHAM]

No I'm just referring to the oil by-pass setting on the oil pump.

 

[addyguy]

I've got to agree with overkill on this one - Ford calls for 5W-50 on a NA engine with 440HP (Boss 302), AND in SC Shelby's.

The Op has built a 'similar' car, and he DOES plan to race it, so I think a quality 40-weight would be a minimum to consider, wouldn't you?

 

[TFB1]

Originally Posted By: addyguy
I've got to agree with overkill on this one - Ford calls for 5W-50 on a NA engine with 440HP (Boss 302), AND in SC Shelby's.

The Op has built a 'similar' car, and he DOES plan to race it, so I think a quality 40-weight would be a minimum to consider, wouldn't you?


I agree, err on the safe side, NOT well I thought it should be OK...

What no one is considering is the extreme load placed on the bearings due to the increased HP does produce heat, and while it may not cause a noticeable rise of oil temps in the pan(where temp is measured), there can be a quick surge in bearing temp... If bearing temp flashes to 300* for five seconds while under full boost, what's gonna happen to the oil viscosity??? That's right if it's on the thin side, Ms Bearing is going to be kissing Mr Crank...

Considering the HP required to spin the supercharger and driveline losses, the engine in my Marauder is producing somewhere north of 550Hp at the crank... Divide by eight, that's 68.75Hp pressing on each rod bearing that has approx two inches of load area...The chance I'd use less than a 40W in a HIGH HP(over 400) application is zero & none...

 

[mount]

Originally Posted By: addyguy
I've got to agree with overkill on this one - Ford calls for 5W-50 on a NA engine with 440HP (Boss 302), AND in SC Shelby's.

The Op has built a 'similar' car, and he DOES plan to race it, so I think a quality 40-weight would be a minimum to consider, wouldn't you?


Ahh! you guys. The Boss 302 and Shelbys are built engines. The OP is just putting a supercharger on top of the stock 5.0. The extra 100hp engine will see maybe a small amount more of heat if you manage to put out all of that 540hp for sustained periods, but the internals are unchanged.

And NO, a 1/4 mile drag doesn't count as a sustained period, and I wouldn't consider this "racing" the vehicle. If this doesn't make sense to you: most overly giddy drivers will do most of a 1/4 mile drag getting on the interstate everyday.

The Ford Modulars, (yes, the new 5.0 is still classified a modular. It even uses the same crankcase as the old ones), thrive on 20 grade oils. If you disagree with this, you're plain being ignorant. Seriously; this ain't your redneck blown small block.
Like said above for the nth time, the only way to know for a particular application is to look at you oil pressure gauge. But I'm willing to bet the OP will find that a 0W-20 will still provide the oil pressure and protection for what he'll be doing with the car.

Using something thicker than he needs will be counter-productive. No oil pressure will stand to be gained once the bypass spec is reached, whether or not this pump can even grab onto the ridiculous thickness some have suggested. This newly designed engine, and along with most other Fords, are originally suited for 20 grade. Not going thicker than necessary will also possibly bump up the MPG, and if anything, imagine this, could make slightly MORE power.

The short version: Unless the OP "races" on a track, he will likely not see much of an elevated oil temperature and therefore drop in pressure from stock.

 

[mount]

Originally Posted By: TFB1

What no one is considering is the extreme load placed on the bearings due to the increased HP does produce heat, and while it may not cause a noticeable rise of oil temps in the pan, there can be a quick surge in bearing temp... If bearing temp flashes to 300* for five seconds while under full boost, what's gonna happen??? The chance I'd use less than a 40W in a HIGH HP(over 400) application is zero & none...

I see by your signature, you have some experience in doing something similar, so I'd say you have more idea about this than most.

First off, what is a thicker viscosity oil going to do to help those bearings for this short amount of time? Using a thicker than needed oil is in no way going to cool or lubricate better at this "quick surge in bearing temp". The thinner choice would if anything flow faster, and would be better at dissipating heat. In addition, the bearing/whole engine has been designed with a 20 grade in mind; tolerances, and fluid dynamics alike. As you implied, oil plays an important part in cooling the engine and well as lubrication.

Second, you say "The chance I'd use less than a 40W in a HIGH HP(over 400) application is zero & none..". This engine is rated at 412hp stock, and is actually more like 435hp as most are finding Ford underrated the specs. But either way, this statement doesn't really make sense to me.
Ford specs 20 grade for many of their engines. Its the way they build engines, and isn't due to any "CAFE regulations" like you see many boneheaded comments on the forum suggest.

 

[mount]

...somethings were added while I was busy typing away...

Originally Posted By: TFB1

If bearing temp flashes to 300* for five seconds while under full boost, what's gonna happen to the oil viscosity???

That's right if it's on the thin side, Ms Bearing is going to be kissing Mr Crank...


In this context of a situation that oil and therefore lubrication would actually be evacuated from the bearing; the differences in oil viscosity become so miniscule that they would be non-issue. This would be a design issue, not a matter of oil weights. This point is not valid, but if it was, I'd argue the other way that thinner oil would flow better into the tolerances of the bearing. The flow of oil is arguably more important to lubrication than a film being left. Also just because the heavier oil may retain a slightly better film doesn't mean that the lighter's just disappears. This goes back to the fact that a complete loss of lubrication of said bearing wouldn't depend on oil weights which are comparably similar in this context. I hate dwindling on busting these preconceived notions some hold, and not clog up the OP's thread, but I think a little explanation is better than bickering back and forth.

Originally Posted By: TFB1
Divide by eight, that's 68.75Hp pressing on each rod bearing that has approx two inches of load area


Dividing your horsepower by eight and providing the contact area of the bearing doesn't go far enough in the math to determine the actual heat produced. You'd need to know friction of the materials, lubes, and the specific geometry of the components. But for sure, it wouldn't be too hard to formulate a rough estimate. I will make an educated guess however, that our 31% increase of peak HP will not much change the "heat" this bearing may experience. And even if it did originally exceed the bearings original design, the solution would be a to use a different bearing, not switch engine oil.


In addition to my first post, I say again the Shelbys and the Boss 302 are built. The Boss even has a revamped adjustable suspension with the intention to be tracked. To be tracked. If the OP was to track this car, I'd be all for something heavier like Mobil 0w-40. I'm a fan of it. (look at sig) (now look at the two modulars I own) yes, they're 10 yrs old, but I digress

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: mount
In addition to my first post, I say again the Shelbys and the Boss 302 are built.


I do like your point about the oil pump. As I mentioned previously, even my 1999.5 Lightning with the supercharger used the same 5w30 that the regular 5.4 F-150 used with 100 less horsepower and 100 less ft-lbs of torque. Sump size was standard, too.

If the engine originally used 5w-20, perhaps a 30 grade might be a reasonable compromise if one wishes to go thicker. Mobil 1 0w-40 certainly isn't atrociously thick, either. I don't think a jump in viscosity is crucial, especially if it isn't actually raced, but a small jump wouldn't be a major problem, either.

Can a ScanGauge II or something similar obtain oil temperatures and/or pressures from this vehicle? Gauges would certainly be a good idea, then we wouldn't be guessing.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: mount

In addition to my first post, I say again the Shelbys and the Boss 302 are built. The Boss even has a revamped adjustable suspension with the intention to be tracked. To be tracked. If the OP was to track this car, I'd be all for something heavier like Mobil 0w-40. I'm a fan of it. (look at sig) (now look at the two modulars I own) yes, they're 10 yrs old, but I digress


They are still Modulars however

And are yours stock? Or are you running 100HP more than stock as well? I don't believe anybody is questioning the use of 0w20/5w20 in a stock application here.

And yes, while the intent of the BOSS 302 includes a focus on tracking the car, it also has a factory oil cooler and yet STILL calls for 5w50. This is DESPITE the fact that it is still an N/A Modular, even if the rods and pistons are "upgraded" over the standard Coyote.

All of these engines, "built" or not, are still Modulars. The difference is power density. And then of course intended use must be factored in.

He is taking what is essentially a less expensively built BOSS 302 engine, WITHOUT an oil cooler, and asking it to make roughly 200HP (we have to consider the power used to run the blower) more than what the BOSS 302 makes. At this point, comparing it to a stock Modular, instead of a "built" engine makes no sense. Because it is no longer a stock Modular and is no longer within Ford's design criteria for the spec'd oil weight.

So while we don't KNOW that the 20-weight lubricant won't adequately protect this engine, we don't KNOW if it won't require an oil with a higher HTHS to keep things safe below deck either. Both an oil pressure and oil temperature gauge would be very useful in this application. However, I still think erring on the side of caution and starting with something like 0w40 and working my way DOWN if the readings allow is far safer than starting at the stock weight and working up if/once unfavourable observations are made.

We are gambling with somebody else's money here.

 

[TFB1]

Originally Posted By: Garak

Can a ScanGauge II or something similar obtain oil temperatures and/or pressures from this vehicle?


Nope, pressure is not monitored, coolant & maybe head temp(used in event of coolant loss) are monitored but not oil temp...

 

[SteveSRT8]

I'm really surprised if Ford does not monitor oil pressure. All my GM products (fleet) do and so does my Mopar.

I bet it is in there somewhere!

 

[Ben99GT]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: mount

In addition to my first post, I say again the Shelbys and the Boss 302 are built. The Boss even has a revamped adjustable suspension with the intention to be tracked. To be tracked. If the OP was to track this car, I'd be all for something heavier like Mobil 0w-40. I'm a fan of it. (look at sig) (now look at the two modulars I own) yes, they're 10 yrs old, but I digress


They are still Modulars however

And are yours stock? Or are you running 100HP more than stock as well? I don't believe anybody is questioning the use of 0w20/5w20 in a stock application here.

And yes, while the intent of the BOSS 302 includes a focus on tracking the car, it also has a factory oil cooler and yet STILL calls for 5w50. This is DESPITE the fact that it is still an N/A Modular, even if the rods and pistons are "upgraded" over the standard Coyote.

All of these engines, "built" or not, are still Modulars. The difference is power density. And then of course intended use must be factored in.

He is taking what is essentially a less expensively built BOSS 302 engine, WITHOUT an oil cooler, and asking it to make roughly 200HP (we have to consider the power used to run the blower) more than what the BOSS 302 makes. At this point, comparing it to a stock Modular, instead of a "built" engine makes no sense. Because it is no longer a stock Modular and is no longer within Ford's design criteria for the spec'd oil weight.

So while we don't KNOW that the 20-weight lubricant won't adequately protect this engine, we don't KNOW if it won't require an oil with a higher HTHS to keep things safe below deck either. Both an oil pressure and oil temperature gauge would be very useful in this application. However, I still think erring on the side of caution and starting with something like 0w40 and working my way DOWN if the readings allow is far safer than starting at the stock weight and working up if/once unfavourable observations are made.

We are gambling with somebody else's money here.


Agreed on all points.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: mount
So while we don't KNOW that the 20-weight lubricant won't adequately protect this engine, we don't KNOW if it won't require an oil with a higher HTHS to keep things safe below deck either. Both an oil pressure and oil temperature gauge would be very useful in this application. However, I still think erring on the side of caution and starting with something like 0w40 and working my way DOWN if the readings allow is far safer than starting at the stock weight and working up if/once unfavourable observations are made.

We are gambling with somebody else's money here.

Erring on the side of caution would be running a 30wt oil.
Suggesting a 40wt oil is like wearing a belt and suspenders.

It's interesting that the OP hasn't chimed in since posting initially. The only gambling on the part of the OP would be if he doesn't install an oil pressure gauge. Very cheap insurance if he learns how to use it properly.