2011 GT 5.0 L Mustang

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: mount
So while we don't KNOW that the 20-weight lubricant won't adequately protect this engine, we don't KNOW if it won't require an oil with a higher HTHS to keep things safe below deck either. Both an oil pressure and oil temperature gauge would be very useful in this application. However, I still think erring on the side of caution and starting with something like 0w40 and working my way DOWN if the readings allow is far safer than starting at the stock weight and working up if/once unfavourable observations are made.

We are gambling with somebody else's money here.

Erring on the side of caution would be running a 30wt oil.
Suggesting a 40wt oil is like wearing a belt and suspenders.

It's interesting that the OP hasn't chimed in since posting initially. The only gambling on the part of the OP would be if he doesn't install an oil pressure gauge. Very cheap insurance if he learns how to use it properly.


So Ford spec'ing 5w50 is like wearing an Mobil 1 Abrams then?

I mean by all accounts, this application is more "severe service" than that of the BOSS 302......

And Mobil 1 0w40 is a pretty freakin' light 40-weight.

I can't think of a single 30-weight oil that meets the specs Mobil 1 0w40 does, can you?

So to me, running a light 40-weight, that meets the spec's it does, at the price point it is sold at is pretty darn cheap insurance. It would be MY starting point in this application for that very reason.

IMHO, it is far better to have a little too much protection (to work down from if necessary) than not having enough and wiping out some rod bearings. Having the pump in bypass a little more and losing 1/10000th of a MPG because the oil is slightly "too heavy" is a heck of a lot cheaper than a new bottom-end because you wiped a bearing or two.

 

[CATERHAM]

OVERKILL I don't get where all this fear mongering is coming from?
The OP is not going to be tracking the car, so there is virtually no chance of high oil temp's.

As I said there is way too much obsessing about what oil he should run. The answer to the OP should be, make sure to install a decent oil pressure gauge and report back with your figures.
Then we'll talk about fine tuning your oil viscosity choice.

 

[DragRace]

Coyote Oiling
Considerable work went into prepping the Coyote's oiling system for its 7,000-rpm redline. It begins with thin 5W-20 mineral oil for reduced oil-pump-drive requirements, less internal drag, and quicker cold-start lubrication. Oil capacity was increased to 8 quarts, both to ensure adequate supply at high engine speeds and to increase oil change intervals to 10,000 miles.

Oil temperature rises when the Coyote is revved more than 4,500 rpm for extended periods, and then an external oil-to-air cooler is vital. But those conditions can only be reached on a road-racing track, so the expensive cooler was ditched and engine management strategies were used to protect the engine during hot idles. However, the mounting area for the cooler was "protected" during the 2011 Mustang's development. That makes it easier for the open-trackers among us to fit a cooler (highly recommended by Coyote engine designers), and tells you something about Ford's intentions for special editions of the Coyote-powered Mustangs. And don't worry about the occasional open-track without an oil cooler. The engineers say the oil cools quickly as soon as you take your foot out of it, and the engine management will limit the torque output if the oil gets too hot.

FWIW also, a friend of mine races the [censored] outta his vortech'd 2011 and uses 5w20 REDLINE OIL,with no issues.

 

[dave1251]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: mount
So while we don't KNOW that the 20-weight lubricant won't adequately protect this engine, we don't KNOW if it won't require an oil with a higher HTHS to keep things safe below deck either. Both an oil pressure and oil temperature gauge would be very useful in this application. However, I still think erring on the side of caution and starting with something like 0w40 and working my way DOWN if the readings allow is far safer than starting at the stock weight and working up if/once unfavourable observations are made.

We are gambling with somebody else's money here.

Erring on the side of caution would be running a 30wt oil.
Suggesting a 40wt oil is like wearing a belt and suspenders.

It's interesting that the OP hasn't chimed in since posting initially. The only gambling on the part of the OP would be if he doesn't install an oil pressure gauge. Very cheap insurance if he learns how to use it properly.


Caterham has a valid point here. Unless the OP is constantly taking his car to the track 3-4 days a week a 30 viscosity synthetic would provide sufficient protection unless there is data to prove otherwise. I understand the CYA aspect of suggesting viscosity of a PCMO, but the truth is we all are speculating on what would be best for the OP without any data to back it up. I would like the OP to chime in as well, the best thing you can do is pick a quality oil run it for the intended length of time and mileage that the mustang will normally see and obtain a series of used oil analysis to make a good suggestion and go from there.

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: DragRace
Coyote Oiling
Considerable work went into prepping the Coyote's oiling system for its 7,000-rpm redline. It begins with thin 5W-20 mineral oil for reduced oil-pump-drive requirements, less internal drag, and quicker cold-start lubrication. Oil capacity was increased to 8 quarts, both to ensure adequate supply at high engine speeds and to increase oil change intervals to 10,000 miles.

Oil temperature rises when the Coyote is revved more than 4,500 rpm for extended periods, and then an external oil-to-air cooler is vital. But those conditions can only be reached on a road-racing track, so the expensive cooler was ditched and engine management strategies were used to protect the engine during hot idles. However, the mounting area for the cooler was "protected" during the 2011 Mustang's development. That makes it easier for the open-trackers among us to fit a cooler (highly recommended by Coyote engine designers), and tells you something about Ford's intentions for special editions of the Coyote-powered Mustangs. And don't worry about the occasional open-track without an oil cooler. The engineers say the oil cools quickly as soon as you take your foot out of it, and the engine management will limit the torque output if the oil gets too hot.

FWIW also, a friend of mine races the [censored] outta his vortech'd 2011 and uses 5w20 REDLINE OIL,with no issues.




Sounds like Ford is comfortable with 5W20 for this engine for normal and occasional spirited driving. Add an oil cooler if you plan on tracking the car on a regular basis. Seems pretty cut and dry. JMO

 

[buster]

http://www.mustang50magazine.com/techarticles/m5lp_1108_2011_ford_mustang_302/viewall.html

Quote:
Lubricating the high-rpm Boss called for detail changes from the already fast-rotating Coyote baseline. Interestingly, a new oil pump was not one of them. By deleting the piston oil squirters, the Boss oil system effectively closed eight bleed holes, thus gaining pressure and slightly restored volume to the bearings. Furthermore, the oil was thickened to a fully synthetic 5W-50 from the Coyote's 5w30 conventional. Together these changes gave the pressure needed to force oil out to the rod bearings at 7,500 rpm.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
OVERKILL I don't get where all this fear mongering is coming from?
The OP is not going to be tracking the car, so there is virtually no chance of high oil temp's.

As I said there is way too much obsessing about what oil he should run. The answer to the OP should be, make sure to install a decent oil pressure gauge and report back with your figures.
Then we'll talk about fine tuning your oil viscosity choice.


It isn't fear mongering at all sir!

1. He's making 200HP more than a BOSS 302
2. The BOSS 302, which HAS an oil cooler, spec's 5w50
3. The Shelby, Ford's supercharged Modular offering ALSO calls for 5w50.
4. His engine, STOCK, calls for 5w20.
5. His engine is NOT stock.
6. Ford's non-stock version of this engine calls for THREE grades heavier oil AND an oil cooler.

I'm simply suggesting he START at 0w40, WITH a set of temperature and pressure gauges, and if it looks that he is safe to drop down to a 30-weight, then he can! This is MUCH safer than starting at 5w30 and then discovering he should have been running 0w40 IMHO.

We have NO IDEA how increasing the power density on this engine by 200HP will affect the oil temperature. We are guessing! It may be that a spirited highway run WILL elevate the oil temperature considerably. It is certainly not outside the realm of possibility.

Unless we assume we know more than Ford Motor Company, who, to cover their own behinds, spec'd an oil THREE grades heavier for their performance Modular engines, due to obviously potentially elevated oil temperatures (I can see people tracking the BOSS 302..... But do you honestly see the Shelby being tracked as much?) then I see no reason NOT to consider starting at a point two grades higher and then going from there. There is NOTHING wrong with a greater safety margin, so I'm puzzled as to why the opposition to this?

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: DragRace
Coyote Oiling
Considerable work went into prepping the Coyote's oiling system for its 7,000-rpm redline. It begins with thin 5W-20 mineral oil for reduced oil-pump-drive requirements, less internal drag, and quicker cold-start lubrication. Oil capacity was increased to 8 quarts, both to ensure adequate supply at high engine speeds and to increase oil change intervals to 10,000 miles.

Oil temperature rises when the Coyote is revved more than 4,500 rpm for extended periods, and then an external oil-to-air cooler is vital. But those conditions can only be reached on a road-racing track, so the expensive cooler was ditched and engine management strategies were used to protect the engine during hot idles. However, the mounting area for the cooler was "protected" during the 2011 Mustang's development. That makes it easier for the open-trackers among us to fit a cooler (highly recommended by Coyote engine designers), and tells you something about Ford's intentions for special editions of the Coyote-powered Mustangs. And don't worry about the occasional open-track without an oil cooler. The engineers say the oil cools quickly as soon as you take your foot out of it, and the engine management will limit the torque output if the oil gets too hot.

FWIW also, a friend of mine races the [censored] outta his vortech'd 2011 and uses 5w20 REDLINE OIL,with no issues.




Redline 5w20 has an HTHS of 3.3. In comparison, Pennzoil Platinum 5w30 and 10w30 respectively have HTHS values of 3.1 and 3.15. Your friend is effectively running a heavy 30-weight.

Mobil 1 0w40 isn't much heavier with an HTHS of 3.8, which is the same as Redline's 5w30.

 

[TFB1]

Originally Posted By: buster
http://www.mustang50magazine.com/techarticles/m5lp_1108_2011_ford_mustang_302/viewall.html

Quote:
Lubricating the high-rpm Boss called for detail changes from the already fast-rotating Coyote baseline. Interestingly, a new oil pump was not one of them. By deleting the piston oil squirters, the Boss oil system effectively closed eight bleed holes, thus gaining pressure and slightly restored volume to the bearings. Furthermore, the oil was thickened to a fully synthetic 5W-50 from the Coyote's 5w30 conventional. Together these changes gave the pressure needed to force oil out to the rod bearings at 7,500 rpm.




Well that sure goes against the preachings here on BITOG that claim higher pressure equals less flow...

 

[CATERHAM]

OVERKILL it sure sounds like fear mongering to me, but I'll let others decide.
With the installation of an OP gauge, which we both agree he should have, their is zero risk of running an oil too light; the spec' 20wt oil will be more than satisfactory.
Why? Because even the spec' 20wt oil is too heavy until the oil temp's are at least up to 80C. High oil temp's are a direct function of how long you can keep your foot in it. Our freind can therefore drive around all day long with more than adequate OP and experiment to his hearts content with some full trottle blasts to see what effect it has on lowering his OP (by raising the oil temp's). He is 100% in control of his oil temp's.
The installation of an OP gauge therefore avoids running a heavier than necessary oil.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: TFB1
Nope, pressure is not monitored, coolant & maybe head temp(used in event of coolant loss) are monitored but not oil temp...


As SteveSRT8 mentioned, at least the oil pressure has to be monitored somehow. Heck, the Ford oil pressure gauges are simply idiot lights - note that they never move no matter how cold or hot the oil is nor with RPM changes.

That data, however, may not be accessible by a ScanGauge. I know my G monitors all kinds of things my ScanGauge cannot access.

Without the data and the ability to compare some grades in actual operation, we're guessing. I'd lean towards something a bit thicker, but I can see no need to go running for a bunch of 20w-50 either.

CATERHAM thinks 5w-20 is fine, OVERK1LL wants Mobil 1 0w-40, and I suggested 5w30. Let's split the difference and go with GC, perhaps?

 

[SteveSRT8]

Thanks for noticing. Virtually all modern cars I have seen are always monitoring oil pressure. Ford mentions monitoring oil temp as well.

It's in there. The question is can you retrieve it!

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
OVERKILL it sure sounds like fear mongering to me, but I'll let others decide.
With the installation of an OP gauge, which we both agree he should have, their is zero risk of running an oil too light; the spec' 20wt oil will be more than satisfactory.
Why? Because even the spec' 20wt oil is too heavy until the oil temp's are at least up to 80C. High oil temp's are a direct function of how long you can keep your foot in it. Our freind can therefore drive around all day long with more than adequate OP and experiment to his hearts content with some full trottle blasts to see what effect it has on lowering his OP (by raising the oil temp's). He is 100% in control of his oil temp's.
The installation of an OP gauge therefore avoids running a heavier than necessary oil.


Completely depends on the vehicle. My oil temps are 95C on the M5 in the summer just putting around. But I have a large oil cooler and so even with spirited street driving, I haven't been able to get them to 100C yet.

However, I don't have a blower, nor am I making 200HP more than stock

Superchargers make a lot of underhood heat in operation. I have a number of friends with supercharged Mustangs, and dealing with the elevated underhood temps can be a challenge depending on the size of the blower, the amount of boost made, whether it has an air charge cooler or not, whether you've upgraded the cooling system or not.....etc.

Listen, I'm not dogging your theory here. But if he goes WOT through a few gears on a deserted back road, and the oil temperature DOES increase at a brisk pace, do you honestly think his eyes are going to be on the gauge at that speed to know what the pressure is at? He doesn't have an oil cooler, the rate of temperature increase may be significant at his power level. And if it DOES get hot, and the oil DOES get too thin, and the engine spins a bearing, then what? "Oh poo, I should have been watching the gauge at 120Mph, now I need a rebuild "

I'm not mongering fear, I'm being realistic. We don't know how this engine responds regarding oil temperature, or how QUICKLY that response takes place under heavy acceleration, particularly without an oil cooler and a healthy dose of forced induction. Erring on the side of caution seems like the right thing to do here, that's all I'm saying. So using an oil designed for high heat, forced induction applications makes sense in my mind.

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM


Listen, I'm not dogging your theory here. But if he goes WOT through a few gears on a deserted back road, and the oil temperature DOES increase at a brisk pace, do you honestly think his eyes are going to be on the gauge at that speed to know what the pressure is at?

It's not just my theory I'm talking from experience.
The point is that oil temp's do not rise as quickly as you suggest, "if he goes WOT through a few gears". It takes minutes of sustained WOT to start to increase the bulk oil temp's, they will not instantly spike as you seem to think. And as soon as he's off the gas the oil temp's will return to normal.
I mentioned a racing freind of mine supercharged his NSX and his oil temp's are not noticeably higher even during some highly illegal spirited driving. On the track they will climb higher after a number of hot laps. It just doesn't happen on the street.

So there is no need for our new member to run a heavier oil initially. His oil pressure should have plenty of reserve for some WOT experimentation.

BTW, I frequently check my oil pressure and oil temp' gauges when driving at speed on the track; after a while it become second nature to do so. In fact I use my OP gauge as a variable red line of sort, not reving the engine higher than the oil pump by-pass point before shifting during the warming up period which is most of the time on the street even with a 20wt oil.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM


Listen, I'm not dogging your theory here. But if he goes WOT through a few gears on a deserted back road, and the oil temperature DOES increase at a brisk pace, do you honestly think his eyes are going to be on the gauge at that speed to know what the pressure is at?

It's not just my theory I'm talking from experience.
The point is that oil temp's do not rise as quickly as you suggest, "if he goes WOT through a few gears". It takes minutes of sustained WOT to start to increase the bulk oil temp's, they will not instantly spike as you seem to think. And as soon as he's off the gas the oil temp's will return to normal.
I mentioned a racing freind of mine supercharged his NSX and his oil temp's are not noticeably higher even during some highly illegal spirited driving. On the track they will climb higher after a number of hot laps. It just doesn't happen on the street.

So there is no need for our new member to run a heavier oil initially. His oil pressure should have plenty of reserve for some WOT experimentation.

BTW, I frequently check my oil pressure and oil temp' gauges when driving at speed on the track; after a while it become second nature to do so. In fact I use my OP gauge as a variable red line of sort, not reving the engine higher than the oil pump by-pass point before shifting during the warming up period which is most of the time on the street even with a 20wt oil.




Please watch from 0:45 to 1:40 as the oil temps go up 15C (From around 90C to 105C) WITH a large factory oil cooler, no forced induction and making roughly 250HP less from the same displacement V8.

You cite an NSX that doesn't experience that, and that's fine. This car isn't an NSX. I realize that this isn't an M5 either, but this is an example of how less than a minute of driving at high RPM's trying to find top speed (and I'm doubting this was on a track......) resulted in rather quick escalation of oil temps. Certainly far quicker than you allude to above, and again, this is WITH an oil cooler, and NO supercharger.

You mention watching your gauges on the track, and I'm sure after being comfortable with your vehicle at its power level, and being in a controlled environment, that this is a sort of 2nd nature thing. I'm thinking the OP doesn't fit that description, since he doesn't even have the gauges to begin with and the car is quite new.

You have to consider this from a few different angles

 

[A_Harman]

Another angle you have to consider is that 105C is not hot as oil temperatures go. Once oil temperatures top 125C, that's getting hot. The HTHS test temperature of 150C is definitely hot. A mitigating factor for oil temperature is that the higher the temperature difference between the oil and ambient air, the more effective the oil cooler is at controlling the temperature. It may be that the cooling system on the car is designed to allow the oil to run at >105C.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Another angle you have to consider is that 105C is not hot as oil temperatures go. Once oil temperatures top 125C, that's getting hot. The HTHS test temperature of 150C is definitely hot. A mitigating factor for oil temperature is that the higher the temperature difference between the oil and ambient air, the more effective the oil cooler is at controlling the temperature. It may be that the cooling system on the car is designed to allow the oil to run at >105C.


Quite right! I'm not saying 105 is hot, just that the oil was able to go up 15 degrees quite quickly despite there being the oil cooler present

 

[Mitch Alsup]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Redline 5w20 has an HTHS of 3.3. In comparison, Pennzoil Platinum 5w30 and 10w30 respectively have HTHS values of 3.1 and 3.15. Your friend is effectively running a heavy 30-weight.

Mobil 1 0w40 isn't much heavier with an HTHS of 3.8, which is the same as Redline's 5w30.


Yet;
Redline 10w30 has an HTHS of 3.8.

The real question is how does one determine the HTHS number one wants for variaous applications, one of them being track use.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Mitch Alsup
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Redline 5w20 has an HTHS of 3.3. In comparison, Pennzoil Platinum 5w30 and 10w30 respectively have HTHS values of 3.1 and 3.15. Your friend is effectively running a heavy 30-weight.

Mobil 1 0w40 isn't much heavier with an HTHS of 3.8, which is the same as Redline's 5w30.


Yet;
Redline 10w30 has an HTHS of 3.8.

The real question is how does one determine the HTHS number one wants for variaous applications, one of them being track use.


Most of the Euro manufacturers spec a minimum of 3.5, this includes BMW through LL-01 and Mercedes Benz, Porsche....etc.

I assume this is due to the expected high speed driving. They also have large sumps.

 

[mount]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL

Please watch from 0:45 to 1:40 as the oil temps go up 15C (From around 90C to 105C) WITH a large factory oil cooler, no forced induction and making roughly 250HP less from the same displacement V8.


I'm not saying that you're not making valid points, but you're greatly over exaggerating the situation of the Original Post.

The guy in your video had the throttle absolutely pinned for well over a minute. I don't think the OP has any plans to do something similar; At least I don't feel like going 180 in a stock setup Mustang. I'm pretty sure you'd be dead or pop out a diamond. Besides you'd hit the governor well before a minute with that kind of power.

And he's not making 200hp over stock as you keep insisting. It's more around 100hp. Not an overly significant amount when you start with a 412.

You make valid points for the situations you describe. But most of these situations don't apply.