2011 Ford Fiesta 6-Spd Dual-Shift Gearbox!

[Kaboomba]

Another excellent technology move by Ford: a MANUAL transmission that works AUTOMATICALLY. This is tougher than it sounds:

http://www.sae.org/mags/AEI/8287

Toward the end of the article things get very interesting.

 

[Steve S]

I will let other buyers pay to test the unit. Last year or so I was looking at Porsche Boxters or Caymans what ever they are called and noted similar trans option. Technology doesn't dazzel me all I want is to get into the car and go some where and have it not break or cost more than its worth in repairs.

 

[KrisZ]

Sorry, but this kind of technology doesn't belong in a sub-compact econobox... yet, just look at VW and how expansive simple fluid changes are on these units. This is jusy another example of chasing EPA numbers and sacrificing the overall operating costs.

The last bit really drives the point that this technology is just not ready to be cost effective in this segment, if the transmission cannot handle heat generated in stop&go traffic in such a small and light car, then we have a problem.

 

[Kaboomba]

@ KrisZ and Steve S:

yeah, the idea that the tranny could overheat is scary. it would suck so bad you would want to nuke the blasted car if it happened in traffic.

OTOH: Ford has been covering an awful lot of bases awfully well lately. And they are in the business of making things cost-effective in a segment. And humans can (and do) overheat clutches, too.

P.S. all automaker's are having to play in the tiny little sandbox of PUNITIVELY high EPA standards.

 

[IndyIan]

Hmmm, I would assume Ford knows what they are doing with this trans before releasing it on a econo car platform that will be driven without any regard for the transmission type.
All the warning scenarios and fail safe modes do make the trans sound weak but I'd think they'd be used as often as some of the coolant loss systems on cars. Maybe 1 out of 1000 cars will ever be driven in limp mode?

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Sorry, but this kind of technology doesn't belong in a sub-compact econobox... yet, just look at VW and how expansive simple fluid changes are on these units.

The VW borg-warner DSG was a wet clutch setup. Someone told me the Ford DCT is a dry clutch setup, is that true? I know Ford says the DCT is filled-for-life.

 

[greenjp]

How anyone could read that article and conclude that DSG is a better technology than a regular manual transmission is beyond me.

jeff

 

[440Magnum]

My gut reaction is, "cool, but its a dead-end technology."

The article states, "DSG's close relationship to a manual transmission means it delivers a fuel economy benefit of about 8 percent vs. a conventional four-speed automatic, Ford claims." Big whoop- everyone else is going to 5- and 6-speed conventional automatics (8-speed in the case of the forthcoming Chrysler/ZF automatic) which aren't nearly as fragile and deliver the same or better economy. Or else they're going to hybrid drivetrains that work differently altogether. The sole appeal here seems to be that its cheap, cheap, cheap to build. All well and good, but I'd rather spend 8% more on fuel and not have to rebuild the transmission multiple times over the life of the car, or spend 8% more for a conventional automatic with more gears to solve the efficiency problem.

Just my opinion.

 

[saberz]

Anytime there is a new "advance" or option for a vehicle I tend to avoid it. Higher maintenance costs and its over complicating something that shouldn't be complicated. Just another area for concern on the longevity of the system. I give Ford kudos for trying something new but ideally the phrase "Keep it simple stupid" comes to mind.

I also don't know how well it will do in terms of high heat given it has no method of really minimizing it.

Quote:
The DSG has no oil pump, oil cooler, hydraulic controls, or torque converter. Micro-slipping the clutches provides the torsional damping. All shifting is done with electromechanical actuators. Two actuators switch from one clutch to another to instantly effect gear changes with no loss in torque. Others operate forks for gear selection


Quote:
According to John Rich, Powertrain Integration Manager during Fiesta development, Ford's objective is a transmission control strategy that warns while gradually trying to guide the driver from low-speed abusive operation into patterns that maintain reasonable clutch assembly temperatures for durability but without annoyance or causing noticeably poor driveability.


You can't control how a person will drive it. You can try to guide them all you want, but there are people out there who really don't care.

 

[gathermewool]

The DSG will be cheaper than the standard 4AT?

I think it's a great idea, if designed properly. More efficient, less maintenance - no fluid changes or clutch replacement (again, if designed correctly) - and probably a little more fun to drive. Seems like a winner all around to me.

Obviously, none of this will matter if this thing overheats or prematurely wears out with even moderate abuse. It seems that the algorithm they've produced will be minimally intrusive, but enough to keep the owner from intentionally (or unintentionally for bad drivers) damaging the tranny.

I'm with others, though, in that I'd wait for others to test it out for a couple of years before buying one myself.

 

[KrisZ]

I think Ford is taking a backword approach into this. They should've left the DSG for cars like Mustang or Taurus SHO and give Fiesta a 5 spd manual or 5 spd automatic.

Also I don't see anything "automatic" ever being cheaper than a manual gearbox, but you have to take the total cost into consideration, not just fuel economy or fluid changes. Clutches will have to be replaced at one point, so is the fluid, then you have electr-mechanical actuators, various sensors and the computer that controls all of this, meanwhile the manual transmission has fluid, synchros, gears and clutch, I don't care what Ford's PR monkeys say, I know what is cheaper and more reliable.

 

[sciphi]

Small-car auto transmissions are asking for abuse. Example 1: The Fit in my signature roasting the ATF after 18k miles. Not just a little. The ATF was like brown water coming out. That's with a 170*F thermostat and lots of highway driving.

Give me a manual that can be filled with synthetic fluid without worrying about warranty concerns. Or a very nice OEM ATF fluid that's not destroyed after 18k miles.

 

[Kaboomba]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
I think Ford is taking a backword approach into this. They should've left the DSG for cars like Mustang or Taurus SHO and give Fiesta a 5 spd manual or 5 spd automatic.


The Mustang and SHO are not really "global" platforms the way the Fiesta is. They clearly want to sell mass quantities of Fiestas all over the place. Not going to happen with Mustang or SHO.

Originally Posted By: KrisZ

Also I don't see anything "automatic" ever being cheaper than a manual gearbox


This one might be. I'm sure they are exchanging some complex machined parts (gears, shafts, bearings, rods, linkage) for simple spin-em-and-press-em parts (solenoids/linear actuators) and software. They probably win on assembly labor cost reduction alone.

Originally Posted By: KrisZ

I don't care what Ford's PR monkeys say, I know what is cheaper and more reliable.


I don't know...

Originally Posted By: SAE International Online: Powertrains

Ford tested its algorithm in Mexico City, Rich said, where drivers tend to keep close to the car in front, and the clutch assembly didn't overheat.


...that's pretty good. How many HUMAN drivers would have avoided overheating the clutch in that situation?

 

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: Kaboomba


Originally Posted By: SAE International Online: Powertrains

Ford tested its algorithm in Mexico City, Rich said, where drivers tend to keep close to the car in front, and the clutch assembly didn't overheat.


...that's pretty good. How many HUMAN drivers would have avoided overheating the clutch in that situation?


I agree with the rest of what you said, but I don't know anyone who drives a manual regularly that would slip the clutch so much that it overheats... You simply don't do 2 mph with the clutch slipping for any distance, even in mexico city traffic.
What ford probably has done is to have the algorithm recognize when to disengage the clutch to let the car roll at 2mph when a driver lets off the gas.

 

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: sciphi
Small-car auto transmissions are asking for abuse. Example 1: The Fit in my signature roasting the ATF after 18k miles. Not just a little. The ATF was like brown water coming out. That's with a 170*F thermostat and lots of highway driving.

Give me a manual that can be filled with synthetic fluid without worrying about warranty concerns. Or a very nice OEM ATF fluid that's not destroyed after 18k miles.

Off topic, but what the heck did you do to the Fit transmission? Usually the econoboxes don't beat up an automatic due the low torque and light weight of the car. Is there a cooler hose pinched or something?

 

[greenjp]

Originally Posted By: Kaboomba
Originally Posted By: KrisZ

Also I don't see anything "automatic" ever being cheaper than a manual gearbox


This one might be. I'm sure they are exchanging some complex machined parts (gears, shafts, bearings, rods, linkage) for simple spin-em-and-press-em parts (solenoids/linear actuators) and software. They probably win on assembly labor cost reduction alone.

Don't worry, the DSG has just as many complex machined gears, shafts, bearings, etc as the regular old manual. Replacing a single, manually actuated clutch with an electronically actuated clutch pack (complete with "micro slipping"!) and all the required sensors, actuators, electronics, etc and it's bound to be more expensive.

jeff

 

[KrisZ]

Quote:
This one might be. I'm sure they are exchanging some complex machined parts (gears, shafts, bearings, rods, linkage) for simple spin-em-and-press-em parts (solenoids/linear actuators) and software. They probably win on assembly labor cost reduction alone.


I was never talking about production costs, I couldn't care less even if Ford was loosing money on them just to satisfy the EPA, what I care about is the total cost of ownership, you seem to believe every word that comes out of PR department and their testing, facts still prove that more complicated equipment is more expansive to buy, maintain, repair and is usually less reliable, which totally defeats the purpose of an econobox car.

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Originally Posted By: sciphi
Small-car auto transmissions are asking for abuse. Example 1: The Fit in my signature roasting the ATF after 18k miles. Not just a little. The ATF was like brown water coming out. That's with a 170*F thermostat and lots of highway driving.

Give me a manual that can be filled with synthetic fluid without worrying about warranty concerns. Or a very nice OEM ATF fluid that's not destroyed after 18k miles.

Off topic, but what the heck did you do to the Fit transmission? Usually the econoboxes don't beat up an automatic due the low torque and light weight of the car. Is there a cooler hose pinched or something?


The ATF I drained out of my friend's 09 Fit at 36k looked like brown water as well. Both sciphi and my friend's cars were recently reflashed with the latest powertrain calibration, which seems to have drastically changed the transmission's shift behavior. We'll see what effect that has on the fluid.

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: sciphi
Small-car auto transmissions are asking for abuse.


?!?!

Small car automatics have the easiest job in the world. Its the automatics behind Cummins 24-valvers in 3/4 ton Rams and the automatics behind the new 6.7 Powerstroke in F350s that have their work cut out for them.

 

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
Originally Posted By: sciphi
Small-car auto transmissions are asking for abuse.


?!?!

Small car automatics have the easiest job in the world. Its the automatics behind Cummins 24-valvers in 3/4 ton Rams and the automatics behind the new 6.7 Powerstroke in F350s that have their work cut out for them.


Sure, the heavy weights. Most Torgueflite's behind a 426 had their days numbered too. But I think most econoboxes are flogged just to keep up. They can't all be NEON's with the dandy power:weight ratio CHEAP.

Quote:
The sole appeal here seems to be that its cheap, cheap, cheap to build. All well and good, but I'd rather spend 8% more on fuel and not have to rebuild the transmission multiple times over the life of the car, or spend 8% more for a conventional automatic with more gears to solve the efficiency problem.


or a conventional automatic with less

Simple is better. I mean, advancements are fun to play with and whatnot...marvel over how they did this or that, but if they're not going to bother to engineer reliability and durability along the lines of excellence, I'd really rather that they don't reach too far beyond their grasp on my nickle.