0W40 Can Ruin A 5W20/5W30 Oil Spec'd Engine?

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Originally Posted By: wemay
Anecdote alert cylon Sonata's first run on 5W-40... I'm notoriously sensory deprived when it comes to oil viscosity feel and sounds. Until i used 5w20 RP which was slightly smoother for the first 600 miles, and now, significantly smoother and quieter with the w40. How long will this last? Who knows. I have zero issue going up and down from 20,30 and 40 / 0w, 5w or 10w until i read data showing this is detrimental.
Hi wemay, do you know if that Edge 5W40 is dexos2? I stopped by WM last night and they seemed to have exactly nada dexos2, but there was a lot of empty space on the shelves, too. The only oil they had that seemed up that alley at all was M1 0W40 Euro.
 
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Originally Posted By: wemay
Hi Virtus' No, no dexos approval for this oil...
Hey bud, thanks for the pics...very helpful! I see that is A3/B4 so it would be too high in SAPS for dexos2. Hope you have a great run with it! 5W40 sounds like a great choice for your climate.
 
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Originally Posted By: Shannow
Look at the nanny systems that the OEMs put in when their 20s get too hot (e.g. ford Toyota/Subaru)...they cut power and cut available revs when the platform outperforms their chosen oil (and in other parts of the market put in 50 or 60 grade for that specific usage)... Drive like the nanny systems will allow, and probably never have an issue. (Ford Oz used the Nanny systems to allow you to drive home with a failed cooling system, on the specced 15w40 in the falcon)
Nanny systems? This sounds like old-wives' tales from Oz to me. wink I need to find where they are in my 1985 Corolla and check if they are OK so that 0W-20 doesn't damage my engine. laugh I don't know any engine that doesn't risk damage when it overheats or any oil that doesn't start oxidizing when it gets too hot. So, they better keep the coolant temperature down no matter what oil is in. Also, higher RPM is OK with lower viscosity unless the engine is at very high torques because Stribeck-curve parameter goes as viscosity x RPM / torque. Lower viscosity only becomes a wear concern at lower RPM and higher torque.
 
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Some of you may remember my oil filter bypass test of years ago. They may be still here. I noted the increased significant likelihood of bypass,especially on cold starts, or cool oil WOT, when using the 10W30 but only in very cold conditions with 5W20 combined with hi revs. Only when the oil was over about 180F was there little chance of bypass with 10W30 combined with high revs. In the short term, bypass events don't amount to much but I think long term and needless allowing bypass events to occur is counter productive. OK a Question: So far, all I see from the thicker is better crowd (hereafter abbreviated TIB)is that going one or two grades above spec'ed doesn't hurt their engine. OK,great! Can they demonstrate objectively that it helps in some way? Some objective testing, perhaps? Educate me! OK then, compare TIB anecdotes to the way Ford validated 5W20 in a whole lot of testing. Of course it's not optimal in EVERY situation, they knew that, but they also accounted for it in the manuals and the situations where 5W20 wasn't in an optimal range is only for a small segment of operators. If I saw the TIB posting some objective reasoning for the change, it would make more sense. For example, "My oil temp is running 250F and I tow these huge trailers 1000 miles at a shot, so I have gone up to a 0W40." THAT would make some good sense. Many of you guys are making a change with NO data and for no operational reason you can state objectively. Most people spend 90 percent of their driving putt-putting around. That was true for me and if some of you remember, I had my truck instrumented to the hilt and datalogged a lot of stuff. My 5.4L seldom reached 200F bulk oil temp so my 5W20 was operating in the 30 grade range most of the time anyway. That's more than adequate protection. In my instrumented run on 10W30 oil in that 5.4L VVT engine, I DID NOT note any change in engine noise. I DID note some slight (inconsequential) changes in VVT operation, many more oil filter bypass events (I live in a cold climate), a loss of MPG (in town with cool oil 2+ mpg, out on the road with fully warmed oil maybe 1 mpg). I DID see slightly higher oil temps (~5F IIRC). Anyway, didn't see any reason for a heavy oil so went back to a robust 5W20 (at the thick end of the viscosity range). My towing and hauling was usually of relatively short duration and infrequent, so I didn't factor that in. Plus, when I did do it, my highest EOT was 218F hauling a 2500# load of seed at 70 mph in ambient 85F weather. That's still well within the capabilities of a good 5W20s additive pack. Anyhoo.... I had no horse in the viscosity race other than choosing the right one for MY situation based upon some objective means. Not everyone has the means I had to make the choice, ok. To me the logic in that case would be to stick close to the OE recommendation, which is based on a LOT of objective testing. If you live in a hot climate, and/or often run your vehicle hard, maybe a one grade jump is in order. FYI, did the same for my old 6.9L diesel Ford, in which I run, and have for many years, 10W30. After monitoring oil temp and oil pressure for years, I determined 10W30 was in order, especially in a cool/cold climate. Some years back, I blew the heads off (Banks turbo installed in 1987 on an NA engine with a 21.6:1 CR). I decided to pull the engine to check everything as I updated to better head gaskets, studs and dropped the CR a little. The lower end was perfect! Decades of running 10W30... perfect!
 
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Thanks Jim. Nice to read a sensible post in these what I call shark meat threads between the thick and thin crowd. So should thin advocates be called “tibbies”?
 
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Thank you, Jim Allen! Now, this is very good useful information based on actual real-life experiments! Yes, TIB only point to government conspiracy and ignore important benefits of thinner oil such as better oil flow, which among other things, grossly reduces oil-filter and oil-pump bypass events as you pointed out. I am not a thin-oil guy. I'm running 0W-20 instead of the 10W-30 originally specified because I like the TGMO 0W-20 SN and it works. From my experience I can say that UOAs don't show any benefit from thicker oil. If anything changes in the future, I'll update it. 0W-20 vs. 0W-40 UOA comparison on a 1985 Corolla
 

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Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Nanny systems? This sounds like old-wives' tales from Oz to me. wink
The Mustang GT, and other cars, will, if the oil temperature gets too high, go into a reduced output mode until the oil temperature goes down. The same engine, in the "Track Pack" version of the car, which spec's 5w-50, either has that feature removed, or it is at a significantly higher temperature. It also gets an oil cooler. There are numerous other cars out there with this "feature" and it is this thermal castration mechanism, there to prevent damage, that Shannow is alluding to.
 
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Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Nanny systems? This sounds like old-wives' tales from Oz to me. wink
The Mustang GT, and other cars, will, if the oil temperature gets too high, go into a reduced output mode until the oil temperature goes down. The same engine, in the "Track Pack" version of the car, which spec's 5w-50, either has that feature removed, or it is at a significantly higher temperature. It also gets an oil cooler. There are numerous other cars out there with this "feature" and it is this thermal castration mechanism, there to prevent damage, that Shannow is alluding to.
Thanks. I have no experience in measuring the oil temperature. CATERHAM is big on measuring the oil pressure and temperature and he chooses the oil HTHSV accordingly.
 
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CATERHAM did great work correlating his oil pressure to HTHS, but to then say that whatever oil keeps the oil pressure above the manufacturer's minimum service oil pressure, and keeps the oil pump out of bypass during operation provides adequate minimum oil film thickness is incorrect logic.
 
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Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
There are numerous other cars out there with this "feature" and it is this thermal castration mechanism, there to prevent damage, that Shannow is alluding to.
My G37 has the feature, too, but I've never come across it, you know, with all the mountains and twisties in Saskatchewan. What am I supposed to do, aim at Saskatoon and plant my right foot? Jim: I think the real issue is the talk of doom and gloom on both sides of the fence. In my climate, I'm sure I can get plenty of bypass events using even a 0w-20. In the grand scheme of things, running an A3/B4 lube in a 0w-20 specced vehicle is not a concern, nor is running a 0w-30 ILSAC in a 10w-30 ILSAC type vehicle. Even several of those were back specced to a thinner grade. When someone states that a 0w-20 must be used on a -40 F day in Saskatchewan all the way to a 110 F day in Arizona, with no deviation lest the engine come to some screeching halt, that's a little much. As I've said in other threads, there is nothing wrong with following OEM recommendations to the letter. However, we do have a lot of people brainwashed by what they've read in manuals. I find it interesting how the engine in my G37 and similar engines from Nissan/Infiniti have gone with oil recommendations over the years. Nissan/Infiniti in North America is pretty open, having called for 40 grades and 10w-30 as possible in the near past, any 5w-30 (ILSAC or C3 or HDEO, as long as SM or newer) for my vintage, and 0w-20 trickling into the mix in more recent times. OCIs have also gone from 3750 miles to 10000 miles now. I would say this is indicative of Shannow's bell curve. Some here have posited reduced wear with thinner lubes, and I'd like to see evidence of that, too. Now, I don't mean comparing using 0w-20 in a Saskatchewan winter, which is sensible, versus trying to use an SAE 30 in our winter unaided. I certainly would be fearful of additional wear in the latter case. I mean using an oil whose CCS/MRV characteristics are suitable for the conditions at hand in the first place.
 

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Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
Some of you may remember my oil filter bypass test of years ago. They may be still here. I noted the increased significant likelihood of bypass,especially on cold starts, or cool oil WOT, when using the 10W30 but only in very cold conditions with 5W20 combined with hi revs. Only when the oil was over about 180F was there little chance of bypass with 10W30 combined with high revs. In the short term, bypass events don't amount to much but I think long term and needless allowing bypass events to occur is counter productive. OK a Question: So far, all I see from the thicker is better crowd (hereafter abbreviated TIB)is that going one or two grades above spec'ed doesn't hurt their engine. OK,great! Can they demonstrate objectively that it helps in some way? Some objective testing, perhaps? Educate me! OK then, compare TIB anecdotes to the way Ford validated 5W20 in a whole lot of testing. Of course it's not optimal in EVERY situation, they knew that, but they also accounted for it in the manuals and the situations where 5W20 wasn't in an optimal range is only for a small segment of operators. If I saw the TIB posting some objective reasoning for the change, it would make more sense. For example, "My oil temp is running 250F and I tow these huge trailers 1000 miles at a shot, so I have gone up to a 0W40." THAT would make some good sense. Many of you guys are making a change with NO data and for no operational reason you can state objectively. Most people spend 90 percent of their driving putt-putting around. That was true for me and if some of you remember, I had my truck instrumented to the hilt and datalogged a lot of stuff. My 5.4L seldom reached 200F bulk oil temp so my 5W20 was operating in the 30 grade range most of the time anyway. That's more than adequate protection. In my instrumented run on 10W30 oil in that 5.4L VVT engine, I DID NOT note any change in engine noise. I DID note some slight (inconsequential) changes in VVT operation, many more oil filter bypass events (I live in a cold climate), a loss of MPG (in town with cool oil 2+ mpg, out on the road with fully warmed oil maybe 1 mpg). I DID see slightly higher oil temps (~5F IIRC). Anyway, didn't see any reason for a heavy oil so went back to a robust 5W20 (at the thick end of the viscosity range). My towing and hauling was usually of relatively short duration and infrequent, so I didn't factor that in. Plus, when I did do it, my highest EOT was 218F hauling a 2500# load of seed at 70 mph in ambient 85F weather. That's still well within the capabilities of a good 5W20s additive pack. Anyhoo.... I had no horse in the viscosity race other than choosing the right one for MY situation based upon some objective means. Not everyone has the means I had to make the choice, ok. To me the logic in that case would be to stick close to the OE recommendation, which is based on a LOT of objective testing. If you live in a hot climate, and/or often run your vehicle hard, maybe a one grade jump is in order. FYI, did the same for my old 6.9L diesel Ford, in which I run, and have for many years, 10W30. After monitoring oil temp and oil pressure for years, I determined 10W30 was in order, especially in a cool/cold climate. Some years back, I blew the heads off (Banks turbo installed in 1987 on an NA engine with a 21.6:1 CR). I decided to pull the engine to check everything as I updated to better head gaskets, studs and dropped the CR a little. The lower end was perfect! Decades of running 10W30... perfect!
Can you summarize your 1. Questions 2. Answers in a laconic text, please? I take it you had more than 32 sample vehicles in your experiment[s] with more than 32 samples per vehicle to come to statistically valid trend observations and pattern recognition results.
 
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Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Yes, TIB only point to government conspiracy and ignore important benefits of thinner oil such as better oil flow, which among other things, grossly reduces oil-filter and oil-pump bypass events as you pointed out.
See, how come * if you point out that thinner oils are the result of CAFE (or Carbon in other worlds), which is ture, not a Government Conspiracy (just ask the oil manufacturers, and OEMs...it's in their papers); and * that FLOW DOES NOT LUBRICATE, and with a positive displacement pump, flow per revolution is constant. You get name called "thick", and have a whole new acronym labelled at you ? Gets labelled a "typical thick/thin thread". Gohkan can accuse me of making stuff up, never getting called out by his proponents (The TOF's (Thin Oil Fans)), then spout absolute nonsense as fact (flow equals lubrication, for example, knowledge of the ingredients of TGMO, MoDTC is all trinuclear, etc. etc.), which I get labelled thick for addressing on technical grounds ? Re "thick"...I ran A3/B4 5W30s in My Nissan Diesel when the manual called for 15W40, similarly in my Caprice when the manual called for 20W50 and 15W40 cold conditions)...How's THAT thick ?
 
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Originally Posted By: Y_K
Can you summarize your 1. Questions 2. Answers in a laconic text, please?
No. Frankly, I don't care enough.
Originally Posted By: Y_K
I take it you had more than 32 sample vehicles in your experiment[s] with more than 32 samples per vehicle to come to statistically valid trend observations and pattern recognition results.
By your snotty tone, I assume YOU have something with 32 vehicles and 32 samples that proves without a doubt that we should all be be running 40 or 50 grade oil regardless of the engine, climate or operating conditions. Please present it... in laconic text, of course I presented a bit more than just a statement that thick oil is universally better. Hopefully that will inspire a few more to do the same. Certainly I satisfied myself about my own oil choices and so far I have not let myself down.
 
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Originally Posted By: Jim Allen
By your snotty tone, I assume YOU have something with 32 vehicles and 32 samples that proves without a doubt that we should all be be running 40 or 50 grade oil regardless of the engine, climate or operating conditions. Please present it... in laconic text, of course
Did anyone in the thread suggest that we all should be running 40 or 50 grades ? Thread was about 40s ruining engines. Nobody told anybody to run anything...
 
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Originally Posted By: Shannow
Did anyone in the thread suggest that we all should be running 40 or 50 grades ?
That's not what I said. YK attempted to discount my points by asking, in a snotty, condescending tone, if I had 32 vehicles and 32 samples. I replied in an equally snotty way by asking if he then had something with the aforementioned 32/32. Also, YK doesn't need you to do his light work.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Thread was about 40s ruining engines.
Started off as that but degenerated into a thick is better/thin is better (TIB/TIB) circle jerk. Anybody with half a brain knows 40 grade won't ruin an engine under normal circumstances... so why has this gone on for 7 pages (so far)? It turned into another debate about TIB/TIB?
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Nobody told anybody to run anything...
By arguing a point vociferously, a person is in effect "telling" people to do what they advocate. Of course, other people have the right to completely ignore it and/or tell a person where to get off. So let's bet back to oil. I eagerly await being bombarded with 32/32 data!
 
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