0w16 options?

Jackson_Slugger

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I think TGMO 0W-16 SP is the best nonboutique 0W-16 out there, having plenty of ZDDP (antiwear), moly (antiwear, extreme pressure, and friction modifier), and boron (dispersant for low-temperature sludge). Mobil 1 is probably still lean on the additives. Unlike Mobil 1, TGMO tends to have Group V polyol ester ((POE) engine-cleaning solvent, OCI extender, and seal sweller), too, which is another plus.
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While TGMO is a good option, Mobil 1 still uses AN, also a Group V ester. Have you not extolled this virtue in the past?
 
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While TGMO is a good option, Mobil 1 still uses AN, also a Group V ester. Have you not extolled this virtue in the past?
Yes, Mobil 1 ILSAC formulations use no POE but Group V alkylated naphthene (AN), which is, of course, not an ester, and it is cheaper than polyol ester (by ~ 2X?) but still more expensive than PAO (by ~ 2X?). Its solvency is not as strong as polyol ester, but it is less antagonistic against the AW/EP/FM film layers than polyol ester. I would still prefer POE over AN though—and even better both.

Note that Mobil 1 European formulations such as Mobil 1 FS and Mobil 1 ESP use no AN but POE.
 
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AMSOIL has a 0W16 that I've used in a 2019 RAV4 for the first 45,000 miles. I've used Castrol Edge 0W16 since then bought on clearance (? low price in any case). 5k mile OCI. Just did 70k mile interval yesterday.
 
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I wouldn’t worry too much about TGMO going into that engine, because when you take it to the dealer they’re going to stuff whatever bulk 0W20 they have into it. 🤣🤣 And then tell you it’s TGMO. Half the Toyota dealers I’ve been to don’t even know what TGMO is, except maybe the parts counter guy (because he has to dust off the bottle of TGMO they have in a display case once a month).
 

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Yes, Mobil 1 ILSAC formulations use no POE but Group V alkylated naphthene (AN), which is, of course, not an ester, and it is cheaper than polyol ester (by ~ 2X?) but still more expensive than PAO (by ~ 2X?). Its solvency is not as strong as polyol ester, but it is less antagonistic against the AW/EP/FM film layers than polyol ester. I would still prefer POE over AN though—and even better both.

Note that Mobil 1 European formulations such as Mobil 1 FS and Mobil 1 ESP use no AN but POE.
Where are you getting that in-depth formula information? It sounds a bit speculative. Mobil was of course the company that pioneered using all three of these bases together (tri-syn) and has stated, previously, to use all three when formulating, in varying quantities of course.

Do you know why @High Performance Lubricants uses PAO in their 0W-xx oils? It's because of the cold temp performance of AN's, which is problematic when blended with Group III. And, as you know, they use an AN/POE combo, so it isn't just straight AN.

We can get a bit of a taste of how this plays out in execution by looking at the oxidation numbers. For EP 0W-20, I had 17 after 5,000 miles, while we see about half that from oils like QSUD.

Virgin oxidation for M1 High Mileage 5W-30 was 8
Virgin oxidation for M1 EP 5W-30 was also 8

In comparison, HPL BAS 5W-30 was 11

Virgin for both of those M1 oils is the same number as we see from QSUD after 5,000 miles in a turbocharged engine.

So, my own speculation on the matter is that they use less POE in their ILSAC oils than they use in their Euro ones (as virgin oxidation on the 0W-40 is clearly much higher) but it's still present.
 

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However, a POE base stock is not the only substance in engine oil that contains a carbonyl group. There are many additives, some that are ester-derived, that contain a carbonyl group. For example, you can Google ester-based Afton seal-swell additives and pour-point depressants. You can also Google borate esters that are used as AW/FM/AO additives. There are probably also many others.
You could have just posted this, lol. Good grief.

Yes, I know it's not the only substance in engine oil that may result in the oxidation value being above 0.
VOAs for oils that do not contain any POE base stock at all will typically show an oxidation value of 5–8 because of the additives that contain a carbonyl group.
I don't agree with this range you presented and a quick perusal of the VOA section shows why. I believe when we get down to ~8 we are on the low end of potential POE content, perhaps a sprinkle for solubility improvement, which is why we see 11 in some of the HPL lubes, which would clearly have more POE. GTL is basically just as "dry" as PAO, so it needs the same sort of solubility "help" that PAO does. Yes, that could be achieved by using a lower group base, but in a quality synthetic I would suspect POE or AN added for that purpose which is why I suspect we see virgin oxidation in the Shell products as being similar to Mobil.

Driven 15W-40, virgin oxidation: 3
RTG 5W-30 (SP), virgin oxidation: 8
M1 15W-50 and VR1 20W-50, virgin oxidation: 8.8 and 7.9
Shaeffer 5W-40, virgin oxidation: 0
Honda 0W-20, virgin oxidation: 0
QS FS 5W-30, virgin oxidation: 7
Shell Helix Ultra 0W-30, virgin oxidation: 11 (same as the HPL)
HPL BAS Racing, virgin oxidation: 11
Castrol Edge 5W-30, virgin oxidation: 10
M1 AFE, Mopar, AMSOIL SS 0W-30, virgin oxidation: 7, 6, 47
VW 5W-40, virgin oxidation: 6
Ravenol VMP 5W-30, virgin oxidation: 3.2 (this one is interesting, as this is a PAO-based lube)
PP Euro 0W-40, virgin oxidation: 8
Delvac 1 5W-40, virgin oxidation: 33
Magnatec 5W-30, virgin oxidation: 10 (Castrol of course advertises the ester "cling" of this oil)
Shaeffer 7000 5W-30, virgin oxidation: 9
Kendall GT-1 0W-20, virgin oxidation: 6
Ravenol ECS 0W-20, virgin oxidation: 10


I don't think the Mobil 1 ILSAC grades contain any POE base stock at all. That HPL must contain only a very small amount of a POE base stock. Moreover, you can't have an all-POE base oil but you need PAO for a variety of reasons, such as water stability, additive compatibility, seal compatibility, and so on.
Yes, and if you had opined in your original statement thusly; if it had been presented as speculation or theory, I wouldn't have responded to it the way I did. However, you stated, quite absolutely, that:
- Mobil 1 ILSAC formulations use no POE but Group V alkylated naphthene (AN)
- Mobil 1 European formulations such as Mobil 1 FS and Mobil 1 ESP use no AN but POE

I don't believe you have a firm basis for either of those assertions, would that be correct? It's fine to be making educated guesses (which is all I'm doing with the oxidation figure) but it's critical to present them as such rather than statement of fact.

Nobody said anything about an oil being all POE, so not sure where that's coming from or what it is intended to address?
 

donnyj08

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I think TGMO 0W-16 SP is the best nonboutique 0W-16 out there, having plenty of ZDDP (antiwear), moly (antiwear, extreme pressure, and friction modifier), and boron (dispersant for low-temperature sludge). Mobil 1 is probably still lean on the additives. Unlike Mobil 1, TGMO tends to have Group V polyol ester ((POE) engine-cleaning solvent, OCI extender, and seal sweller), too, which is another plus.

Check with local Toyota dealers to see if they participate in AdvantageCARE. Here, they offer a $50 oil change/tire rotation/multipoint inspection if you buy three of them at a time. This is what I will do and get two 5,000-mile oil changes a year, costing only $100 a year, which is not much more than DIY and you get multipoint inspections, too. I also don't need to worry about changing my OCI dates by going over 10,000 miles on a single oil change a year by getting 5,000-mile oil changes instead. 5,000-mile oil changes also improve the fuel economy as used oil has poor fuel economy and extend the engine durability and life by keeping the engine cleaner and reducing the wear on engine parts by keeping the TAN low. No grease on hands, no oil recycling, no oil spills in the garage—it is a win–win.

WCT_AdvantageCare_1000x1500.jpg
Thanks for the recommendation. And the education on the oil. I unfortunately spend way less time on BITOG these days since my children were born.

I will double check that they are in fact using TGMO 0w16 at my local dealer and inquire about This. I certainly wouldn’t mind having it serviced at Toyota especially at $50 a pop.

I believe they said it normally runs $69.99 which also isn’t terrible if it is in fact TGMO.
 

donnyj08

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You could have just posted this, lol. Good grief.

Yes, I know it's not the only substance in engine oil that may result in the oxidation value being above 0.

I don't agree with this range you presented and a quick perusal of the VOA section shows why. I believe when we get down to ~8 we are on the low end of potential POE content, perhaps a sprinkle for solubility improvement, which is why we see 11 in some of the HPL lubes, which would clearly have more POE. GTL is basically just as "dry" as PAO, so it needs the same sort of solubility "help" that PAO does. Yes, that could be achieved by using a lower group base, but in a quality synthetic I would suspect POE or AN added for that purpose which is why I suspect we see virgin oxidation in the Shell products as being similar to Mobil.

Driven 15W-40, virgin oxidation: 3
RTG 5W-30 (SP), virgin oxidation: 8
M1 15W-50 and VR1 20W-50, virgin oxidation: 8.8 and 7.9
Shaeffer 5W-40, virgin oxidation: 0
Honda 0W-20, virgin oxidation: 0
QS FS 5W-30, virgin oxidation: 7
Shell Helix Ultra 0W-30, virgin oxidation: 11 (same as the HPL)
HPL BAS Racing, virgin oxidation: 11
Castrol Edge 5W-30, virgin oxidation: 10
M1 AFE, Mopar, AMSOIL SS 0W-30, virgin oxidation: 7, 6, 47
VW 5W-40, virgin oxidation: 6
Ravenol VMP 5W-30, virgin oxidation: 3.2 (this one is interesting, as this is a PAO-based lube)
PP Euro 0W-40, virgin oxidation: 8
Delvac 1 5W-40, virgin oxidation: 33
Magnatec 5W-30, virgin oxidation: 10 (Castrol of course advertises the ester "cling" of this oil)
Shaeffer 7000 5W-30, virgin oxidation: 9
Kendall GT-1 0W-20, virgin oxidation: 6
Ravenol ECS 0W-20, virgin oxidation: 10



Yes, and if you had opined in your original statement thusly; if it had been presented as speculation or theory, I wouldn't have responded to it the way I did. However, you stated, quite absolutely, that:
- Mobil 1 ILSAC formulations use no POE but Group V alkylated naphthene (AN)
- Mobil 1 European formulations such as Mobil 1 FS and Mobil 1 ESP use no AN but POE

I don't believe you have a firm basis for either of those assertions, would that be correct? It's fine to be making educated guesses (which is all I'm doing with the oxidation figure) but it's critical to present them as such rather than statement of fact.

Nobody said anything about an oil being all POE, so not sure where that's coming from or what it is intended to address?


It’s been 2-3 years since I was in here Daily and Man have I gotten way behind on the technical stuff.

You guys are truly a wealth of knowledge when asked. I appreciate the info and appreciate the time it takes to compile this information and stay relevant with it.
 
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You could have just posted this, lol. Good grief.

Yes, I know it's not the only substance in engine oil that may result in the oxidation value being above 0.

I don't agree with this range you presented and a quick perusal of the VOA section shows why. I believe when we get down to ~8 we are on the low end of potential POE content, perhaps a sprinkle for solubility improvement, which is why we see 11 in some of the HPL lubes, which would clearly have more POE. GTL is basically just as "dry" as PAO, so it needs the same sort of solubility "help" that PAO does. Yes, that could be achieved by using a lower group base, but in a quality synthetic I would suspect POE or AN added for that purpose which is why I suspect we see virgin oxidation in the Shell products as being similar to Mobil.

Driven 15W-40, virgin oxidation: 3
RTG 5W-30 (SP), virgin oxidation: 8
M1 15W-50 and VR1 20W-50, virgin oxidation: 8.8 and 7.9
Shaeffer 5W-40, virgin oxidation: 0
Honda 0W-20, virgin oxidation: 0
QS FS 5W-30, virgin oxidation: 7
Shell Helix Ultra 0W-30, virgin oxidation: 11 (same as the HPL)
HPL BAS Racing, virgin oxidation: 11
Castrol Edge 5W-30, virgin oxidation: 10
M1 AFE, Mopar, AMSOIL SS 0W-30, virgin oxidation: 7, 6, 47
VW 5W-40, virgin oxidation: 6
Ravenol VMP 5W-30, virgin oxidation: 3.2 (this one is interesting, as this is a PAO-based lube)
PP Euro 0W-40, virgin oxidation: 8
Delvac 1 5W-40, virgin oxidation: 33
Magnatec 5W-30, virgin oxidation: 10 (Castrol of course advertises the ester "cling" of this oil)
Shaeffer 7000 5W-30, virgin oxidation: 9
Kendall GT-1 0W-20, virgin oxidation: 6
Ravenol ECS 0W-20, virgin oxidation: 10



Yes, and if you had opined in your original statement thusly; if it had been presented as speculation or theory, I wouldn't have responded to it the way I did. However, you stated, quite absolutely, that:
- Mobil 1 ILSAC formulations use no POE but Group V alkylated naphthene (AN)
- Mobil 1 European formulations such as Mobil 1 FS and Mobil 1 ESP use no AN but POE

I don't believe you have a firm basis for either of those assertions, would that be correct? It's fine to be making educated guesses (which is all I'm doing with the oxidation figure) but it's critical to present them as such rather than statement of fact.

Nobody said anything about an oil being all POE, so not sure where that's coming from or what it is intended to address?
If you look at the oxidation numbers on M1 ESP is and M1 FS flavors, it is around 35, which corresponds to a 5–7% POE content. They also do not show any alkylated naphthalene (AN) lines in Fourier-transform infrared spectroscopy (FTIR).

The oxidation value for M1 ILSAC flavors is 10 or less, which would correspond to a 1–2% POE content at most. Why do you even worry about such a low number? That wouldn't be considered as a base stock in the base oil but an additive. I doubt they even have a 1–2% POE content because chances are that they have ester-based seal-swell agents (adipate ester) and pour-point depressants (styrene/maleic ester) that are not a POE. M1 ILSAC flavors do show alkylated naphthalene (AN) lines in FTIR.


In contrast, my TGMO 0W-20 SN VOA showed an oxidation number of 68, which corresponds to a 10–14% POE content—twice as much as in M1 FS and M1 ESP flavors. Now, that's what I call a POE base-stock content in the base oil!


This guy in this YouTube video claims that an oil with an ester would have an oxidation value of higher than 30–40.



If you sponsor the research (~ $40), I will have WearCheck run a VOA on TGMO 0W-16 SP.
 

OVERKILL

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If you look at the oxidation numbers on M1 ESP is and M1 FS flavors, it is around 35, which corresponds to a 5–7% POE content. They also do not show any alkylated naphthalene (AN) lines in Fourier-transform infrared spectroscopy (FTIR).
As Molakule and Tom NJ explained recently, you can't use the oxidation number to estimate the percentage of ester in the base oil blend. It would be great if we could, but I asked the question and was told that this was not something we could do.
The oxidation value for M1 ILSAC flavors is 10 or less, which would correspond to a 1–2% POE content at most. Why do you even worry about such a low number? That wouldn't be considered as a base stock in the base oil but an additive. I doubt they even have a 1–2% POE content because chances are that they have ester-based seal-swell agents (adipate ester) and pour-point depressants (styrene/maleic ester) that are not a POE. M1 ILSAC flavors do show alkylated naphthalene (AN) lines in FTIR.
As I said, I don't think it's a significant amount, just enough for seal swell and to compliment the AN. So, I'm not comfortable with somebody saying it has no POE in it, because we don't have enough information to draw that conclusion. I'm sure you recall the 2% of NP343 they used in the blending guide examples? That's what I'm thinking of (and yes, that's POE). Could we say it doesn't make up a significant part of the base oil blend? Yes, I would be fine with that.
In contrast, my TGMO 0W-20 SN VOA showed an oxidation number of 68, which corresponds to a 10–14% POE content—twice as much as in M1 FS and M1 ESP flavors. Now, that's what I call a POE base-stock content in the base oil!
Again, we can't do that math unfortunately (I wish we could too). I do think that points to a good "slug" of ester in the base oil blend however.
This guy in this YouTube video claims that an oil with an ester would have an oxidation value of higher than 30–40.
We of course have several oils that contradict that ;)

I'd rather have OAI run the VOA if you are OK with that? I'm trying to standardize on OAI for all the UOA/VOA stuff I'm involved in.
 

OVERKILL

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If OIA is ISO-certified and can measure KV40, KV100, TBN, TAN, and oxidation number in the VOA, that's great. WearCheck can do that.
This is what an OAI report looks like:
2019 RAM 1500 UOA August 10th 2022.png


Doesn't look like this (standard) report includes KV40 or TAN, but both spots are available, so clearly we can request it.

And yes, since OAI is just Polaris, it's ISO 17025.
 
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