0w16 for new hybrid
- Thread starter Joe1
- Start date
The oil pump only supplies the oil, it doesn't cause the lubrication based on laws of Tribology - ie, the oil viscosity and the mechanics of moving parts. The MOFT between moving parts is a strong function of the oil viscosiy and the relative speed of the moving parts.
"Programming" the variable volume oil pump is to basically cut back the output volume when less oil is needed to lubricate in order to save a miniscule amount of fuel used for oil pumping.
Last edited:
It’s not an electronic oil pump its a chain driven oil pump and the pressure is controlled with valves by the ECM.
See: Diagram in Lub System
Toyota engines - A25·M20 - Dynamic Force series (R4)
Review of Toyota Dynamic Force engines design and components - inline-4 (M20A, A25A)
toyota-club.net
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2022
- Messages
- 5,495
Australia is upside down so you don't need oil pressure, its gravity feed
In all seriousness with the DI / PI I wonder how often it actually gets port injection - since that is mostly enabled at idle. I suppose a hybrid will idle sometimes, but not often.
I have an ICE version with this engine. Its never gone over 5K between oil changes. Sometimes the dealer does it for free - so who knows what goes in. When I do it - it gets 0w-20 which is also listed as an acceptable alternative for US use. When warranty is over I will likely go to 5w-30.
In Europe, the user manual also pushes us to insist on 0w-16. At the Toyota dealer, they have checked which oils they are allowed to use in a hybrid Camry with A25A-FXS engine. They offered these options:
0w-16, 0w-20, 5w-30 (in my country 5w-20 is almost unheard of/unknown SAE class).
I have decided to go for 0w-20 and severe use OCI interval to be on the safe side.
As the A25A-FXS was recently approved for 0w-8 in the Toyota Crown, I believe that with 0w-20 will be O.K. even on hot summer days going up to 100 mph on the highway.
-
We are not upside down from you, we are just a bit on the side (approx 90 degrees) therefore we really need a good oil pump. We have the steering wheel on the correct side and German highways are not far away ...
0w-16, 0w-20, 5w-30 (in my country 5w-20 is almost unheard of/unknown SAE class).
I have decided to go for 0w-20 and severe use OCI interval to be on the safe side.
As the A25A-FXS was recently approved for 0w-8 in the Toyota Crown, I believe that with 0w-20 will be O.K. even on hot summer days going up to 100 mph on the highway.
-
We are not upside down from you, we are just a bit on the side (approx 90 degrees) therefore we really need a good oil pump. We have the steering wheel on the correct side and German highways are not far away ...
Well now I see on page 493 of the 2023 Highlander Hybrid (2.5L) User Manual:
"SAE 0W-16 is the best choice for good fuel economy and good starting in cold weather.
If SAE 0W-16 is not available, SAE 0W-20 oil may be used. However, it must be replaced with SAE 0W-16 at the next oil change.
Oil viscosity (0W-16 is explained here as an example):
• The 0W in 0W-16 indicates the characteristic of the oil which allows cold startability. Oils with a lower value before the W allow for easier starting
of the engine in cold weather.
• The 16 in 0W-16 indicates the viscosity characteristic of the oil when the oil is at high temperature. An oil with a higher viscosity (one with a higher value) may be better suited if the vehicle is operated at high speeds, or under extreme load conditions."
It certainly doesn't say that using 0W-20 will cause any damage, void warranty, etc.
So Petr if you're doing a lot of 100 mph driving then yeah 0W-20 is probably a good idea.
"SAE 0W-16 is the best choice for good fuel economy and good starting in cold weather.
If SAE 0W-16 is not available, SAE 0W-20 oil may be used. However, it must be replaced with SAE 0W-16 at the next oil change.
Oil viscosity (0W-16 is explained here as an example):
• The 0W in 0W-16 indicates the characteristic of the oil which allows cold startability. Oils with a lower value before the W allow for easier starting
of the engine in cold weather.
• The 16 in 0W-16 indicates the viscosity characteristic of the oil when the oil is at high temperature. An oil with a higher viscosity (one with a higher value) may be better suited if the vehicle is operated at high speeds, or under extreme load conditions."
It certainly doesn't say that using 0W-20 will cause any damage, void warranty, etc.
So Petr if you're doing a lot of 100 mph driving then yeah 0W-20 is probably a good idea.
I have a 23 rav hybrid. I live in the frozen north and will be going 0w20. My 1st change was at 2000km and put in some pennzoil Platinum 0w20.
If I start to see 0w16 at prices that arent higher than 0w20 then Ill use that. As it is now around here 5qt is usually $60 vs $28 for 0w20.
If I start to see 0w16 at prices that arent higher than 0w20 then Ill use that. As it is now around here 5qt is usually $60 vs $28 for 0w20.
While the 0w-20 has to meet mostly the same requirements as more viscous oils, some ugly exceptions had to be made for 0w-16.
I am pretty sure that 0W-20, which meets not only API SP but also Porsche C20 and MB229.71 is more than capable of handling all loads the Toyota Hybrid will experience. For this reason, my choice was Mobil1 ESP X2 0w-20.
On the other hand, with the 0w-16, I am sure nothing bad will happen during the warranty period - and that's it.
For example, some 0w-16 have crazy high Noack. One needs to be careful as not all 0w-16 are created equal.
Moreover, for really very cold weather, some 0w-20 might be better than some 0w-16.
A cheap 0w-16: CCS viscosity at -35C: 4900mPas.
A premium 0w-20: CCS viscosity at -35C: 4150mPas.
To add insult to injury, in really cold weather the risk of oil dilution by fuel is higher as it is more difficult to heat-up the oil &engine so that the fuel can evaporate. All the above are the reasons why I decided, for now, to stay away from the 0w-16. (My climate is quite similar to Calgary's climate.)
I am pretty sure that 0W-20, which meets not only API SP but also Porsche C20 and MB229.71 is more than capable of handling all loads the Toyota Hybrid will experience. For this reason, my choice was Mobil1 ESP X2 0w-20.
On the other hand, with the 0w-16, I am sure nothing bad will happen during the warranty period - and that's it.
For example, some 0w-16 have crazy high Noack. One needs to be careful as not all 0w-16 are created equal.
Moreover, for really very cold weather, some 0w-20 might be better than some 0w-16.
A cheap 0w-16: CCS viscosity at -35C: 4900mPas.
A premium 0w-20: CCS viscosity at -35C: 4150mPas.
To add insult to injury, in really cold weather the risk of oil dilution by fuel is higher as it is more difficult to heat-up the oil &engine so that the fuel can evaporate. All the above are the reasons why I decided, for now, to stay away from the 0w-16. (My climate is quite similar to Calgary's climate.)
Triple_Se7en
$50 Site Donor 2024
OP
I only read page 1 and page 5 here.
Did you mention on pages 2-3 or 4, how many approx battery miles this vehicle will see in 10k miles?
Sorry if I missed it.
I only read page 1 and page 5 here.
Did you mention on pages 2-3 or 4, how many approx battery miles this vehicle will see in 10k miles?
Sorry if I missed it.
Hybrids don’t really have “battery miles” since the gas engine always stays semi-warm for emissions reasons.
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2023
- Messages
- 339
I think that there is some misunderstanding on the operation of toyota's hybrid system. Toyota's hybrid system (and the only exclusion to this rule would be the hybrid max power trains in the crown 2.4 turbo, and the tundra/tacoma), is that it is a parallel system. The hybrid system is working in parallel to the gas engine.
This is different to how Honda's hybrid system works, were it cannot run in parallel due to the transmission design. In a honda, you can only run battery power, or engine power, but not both at the same time.
So if you wanted to compare battery miles, a toyota would not be the one to look at, since it doesn't actually run in "pure ev" mode. It can, at very very low speeds, but usually does not.
As I have said before, I ran 0w16 in my camry non hybrid for well over 250k miles (I am currently at 268k) and the engine runs perfectly, what gave out was the 8 speed transmission, not the engine, so for those that think 0w16 is going to be a make / break issue....I don't see why. There are many people who go 250k miles on the new gen toyota engines (m20a/a25a) without issues using 0w16. TGMO oil is a great blend imo, just wouldn't use it in high performance applications.
This is different to how Honda's hybrid system works, were it cannot run in parallel due to the transmission design. In a honda, you can only run battery power, or engine power, but not both at the same time.
So if you wanted to compare battery miles, a toyota would not be the one to look at, since it doesn't actually run in "pure ev" mode. It can, at very very low speeds, but usually does not.
As I have said before, I ran 0w16 in my camry non hybrid for well over 250k miles (I am currently at 268k) and the engine runs perfectly, what gave out was the 8 speed transmission, not the engine, so for those that think 0w16 is going to be a make / break issue....I don't see why. There are many people who go 250k miles on the new gen toyota engines (m20a/a25a) without issues using 0w16. TGMO oil is a great blend imo, just wouldn't use it in high performance applications.
After each ride our Camry Hybrid indicates percentage of trip in the EV mode. My maximum was 57% in EV mode after a 30 mile ride, normally I see much lower number (usually 20 to 30%). However, there are more start-stop events than there would be with a non-hybrid car equipped with start-stop system. Therefore, I believe the oil in the hybrid is stressed by the start/stop a lot; I would not subtract the EV miles from the total miles.
@VTECOverRated: What was your OCI?
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2023
- Messages
- 339
5000 miles/when the light comes on
Technically the light comes on every 5K for a maintenance visit; Toyota wants a MPI and tire rotation performed every 5K. Oil is replaced every 10K or 1 yr, whichever comes first.
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2023
- Messages
- 339
Oh I know. They don't know what they are doing.
Yes, the 2.4L turbo uses both power sources all the time, instead of the ECU fiddling between gas and/or electric on the PSD equipped hybrids
The Crown 2.5L hybrid uses 0w8, as well as the Grand Highlander 2.5L hybrid uses 0w8
Last edited:
Not sure how you figure that? While some like to do tire rotations every 7,500 (or not), IMO it's a bit on the long side (and in my experience, for my cars, too long), and I'm not sure if Toyota wants to experiment with 15k OCI's. So... have a customer come in every 5k for the tire rotation, every second trip is an oil change too. [Some of us do 5k OCI's, makes life easy--0's and 5's, no need for any sticker on the windshield.]
I realize other makes do have "smart" algorithms trying to figure out right time for changes. I can't say they are wrong. But a nice round number like 5k, and with other services based on multiples from that, is on the easy side to remember and deal with.
I wouldn’t necessarily say that. With the exception of oil consumption in a few models at higher mileage, 10K OCI with 0W20 has worked out pretty well for them across the line-up. As you can see from my UOA here, there may be plenty of margin.
2016 Toyota RAV4, Mobil 1 EP 0W20, 18,559 miles
Time in use: 18 months Oil Filter: Genuine Toyota Surprisingly, there was zero oil consumption.
bobistheoilguy.com
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2023
- Messages
- 339
The last time I had oil consumption on a toyota was the 2.4 in my 2005 camry and it started only at around 150k miles an burned half a quart ever 5k...so yeah.
