My wife drives a 2013 Nissan Altima. According to the owners manual 0w20 is recommended but 5w30 can also be used if 0w20 is not available. I use 0w20 on the car but it's nice to know that 5w30 can be used if I ever decide to use it.
0W-20 oil required?
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Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
The modern Citco diesel oil example you've sited had a KV100 of 9.0cSt, almost in the 30 grade range, so I'm not surprised the HTHSV is 2.9cP. That doesn't mean the same grade of 50 years ago would have had the same HTHSV and I understand that the 20W-20 grade back then did use VIIs if not necessarily today.
But my question referred to what was the HTHSV of a PCMO 20 grade that had a KV100 in the 7-8cSt range that was typical of the grade 40-50 years ago? Since the HTHSV measure hadn't been developed yet neither you nor know but I posit that it could easily have been as low 2.6cP for some lighter available versions of the grade.
posit your way over to
http://www.blackstone-labs.com/Newsletters/Gas-Diesel/April-1-2012.php
and check out the 20W, and 20W20 offerings...clearly dino, clearly PCMO oils of the day, and find where they hid the VII....clearly monograde, and therefore Newtonian.
The modern Citco diesel oil example you've sited had a KV100 of 9.0cSt, almost in the 30 grade range, so I'm not surprised the HTHSV is 2.9cP. That doesn't mean the same grade of 50 years ago would have had the same HTHSV and I understand that the 20W-20 grade back then did use VIIs if not necessarily today.
But my question referred to what was the HTHSV of a PCMO 20 grade that had a KV100 in the 7-8cSt range that was typical of the grade 40-50 years ago? Since the HTHSV measure hadn't been developed yet neither you nor know but I posit that it could easily have been as low 2.6cP for some lighter available versions of the grade.
posit your way over to
http://www.blackstone-labs.com/Newsletters/Gas-Diesel/April-1-2012.php
and check out the 20W, and 20W20 offerings...clearly dino, clearly PCMO oils of the day, and find where they hid the VII....clearly monograde, and therefore Newtonian.
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Originally Posted By: burgessdg
Originally Posted By: ChrisD46
What differences do you believe you would see in the structure of the oil when comparing a 0W20 vs. a 0W30 oil after 7,500 miles ? Would there be a concern for the 30W sheering down to a 20W or more prone to additive loss due to larger delta from 0W to 30 vs. the 0W20 ?
Not an oil engineer but from what I have read the first # is the base oil. Then polymers are added that thicken the oil when hot, making that base oil act like a thicker oil when hot, that thickness is then the second #. Soooo, to answer your question, as the oil ages, additives go away and you end up with more 0 than 20. To the point where you could end up with just 0. Make sense?
No.
The first number is the cold performance target; it is the oil's performance (for the case of a 0W) in terms of MRV @ -40C and CCS (Cold Cranking Simulator) @ -35C. Each cold classification has a different set of temperatures associated with it. To obtain the 5W rating for example, your MRV must be below the limit (60,000cP) @ -35C and your CCS must be below the limit (in this case, 6,600cP) @ -30C.
This chart illustrates it well:
Oils are a blend of base oils, with varying levels of cold and hot performance. It is quite possible to blend a 5W-30 for example with no VII's whatsoever. Redline's 5w-30 is an example of that. It capitalizes on the naturally excellent characteristics of the base oil blend to obtain the 5W rating and is also a 30 weight @ 100C. Due to this fact it does not shear.
Now of course blending a VII-free multigrade is expensive. So typically they will use a base oil blend that ends up "somewhere in the middle" and will use VII's and PPD's to tweak the oil to get its viscosity characteristics to where they need to be. It is a delicate balancing act building a fully formulated motor oil that will meet the myriad of performance approvals some of them are required to obtain, many of which test temporary and permanent shear and other aspects of the lubricant that will degrade in use.
Now, as an aside, but it may interest you, the chart shows that there is a minimum 100C viscosity for the various xW ratings. They are not common anymore, but you used to be able to buy an oil that was simply 10W or 15W:
The 20W-20 that Shannow was mentioning, you'll notice it has the same minimum limits (5.6cP @ 100C) for hot performance for both the summer and winter ratings.
Solarent spoke on the blending process before about what viscosity bases he would use when making something like a 5w-40 and ultimately IIRC (but don't quote me on this), you ended up with a base oil blend that satisfied the requirements for 5W and fell somewhere in the 30 weight range when hot. The product was then manipulated with some VII's to bump it into the 40 weight territory. This is also, IMHO, why you see the 5W-40 HDEO's shear down into 30's in applications like the 6.0L PSD, where the injection system destroys the polymers.
Originally Posted By: ChrisD46
What differences do you believe you would see in the structure of the oil when comparing a 0W20 vs. a 0W30 oil after 7,500 miles ? Would there be a concern for the 30W sheering down to a 20W or more prone to additive loss due to larger delta from 0W to 30 vs. the 0W20 ?
Not an oil engineer but from what I have read the first # is the base oil. Then polymers are added that thicken the oil when hot, making that base oil act like a thicker oil when hot, that thickness is then the second #. Soooo, to answer your question, as the oil ages, additives go away and you end up with more 0 than 20. To the point where you could end up with just 0. Make sense?
No.
The first number is the cold performance target; it is the oil's performance (for the case of a 0W) in terms of MRV @ -40C and CCS (Cold Cranking Simulator) @ -35C. Each cold classification has a different set of temperatures associated with it. To obtain the 5W rating for example, your MRV must be below the limit (60,000cP) @ -35C and your CCS must be below the limit (in this case, 6,600cP) @ -30C.
This chart illustrates it well:
Oils are a blend of base oils, with varying levels of cold and hot performance. It is quite possible to blend a 5W-30 for example with no VII's whatsoever. Redline's 5w-30 is an example of that. It capitalizes on the naturally excellent characteristics of the base oil blend to obtain the 5W rating and is also a 30 weight @ 100C. Due to this fact it does not shear.
Now of course blending a VII-free multigrade is expensive. So typically they will use a base oil blend that ends up "somewhere in the middle" and will use VII's and PPD's to tweak the oil to get its viscosity characteristics to where they need to be. It is a delicate balancing act building a fully formulated motor oil that will meet the myriad of performance approvals some of them are required to obtain, many of which test temporary and permanent shear and other aspects of the lubricant that will degrade in use.
Now, as an aside, but it may interest you, the chart shows that there is a minimum 100C viscosity for the various xW ratings. They are not common anymore, but you used to be able to buy an oil that was simply 10W or 15W:
The 20W-20 that Shannow was mentioning, you'll notice it has the same minimum limits (5.6cP @ 100C) for hot performance for both the summer and winter ratings.
Solarent spoke on the blending process before about what viscosity bases he would use when making something like a 5w-40 and ultimately IIRC (but don't quote me on this), you ended up with a base oil blend that satisfied the requirements for 5W and fell somewhere in the 30 weight range when hot. The product was then manipulated with some VII's to bump it into the 40 weight territory. This is also, IMHO, why you see the 5W-40 HDEO's shear down into 30's in applications like the 6.0L PSD, where the injection system destroys the polymers.
Originally Posted By: burgessdg
Oh, and the problem I have with 0W-20 is I'm cheap and see no benefit paying 3x the price for oil.
Dan
Dan,
3x? You're not in Canada, so please tell us where in IL you're getting 5w-20 for $7.65 for a 5 quart jug.
Oh, and the problem I have with 0W-20 is I'm cheap and see no benefit paying 3x the price for oil.
Dan
Dan,
3x? You're not in Canada, so please tell us where in IL you're getting 5w-20 for $7.65 for a 5 quart jug.
Originally Posted By: HangFire
Originally Posted By: burgessdg
Oh, and the problem I have with 0W-20 is I'm cheap and see no benefit paying 3x the price for oil.
Dan
Dan,
3x? You're not in Canada, so please tell us where in IL you're getting 5w-20 for $7.65 for a 5 quart jug.
In my area, 0W20 pure synthetic is $5.97 per quart and is never on sale. I have not seen a blend, but would not use a blend anyway. I get name brand dino 5W-20 on sale for as little as $1.80 a quart, but mostly $1.99 a quart.
I won't use a blend 'cause I think that's just a good way for them to charge more for dino oil. Use dino, or use Synthetic, why use both...
Dan
Originally Posted By: burgessdg
Oh, and the problem I have with 0W-20 is I'm cheap and see no benefit paying 3x the price for oil.
Dan
Dan,
3x? You're not in Canada, so please tell us where in IL you're getting 5w-20 for $7.65 for a 5 quart jug.
In my area, 0W20 pure synthetic is $5.97 per quart and is never on sale. I have not seen a blend, but would not use a blend anyway. I get name brand dino 5W-20 on sale for as little as $1.80 a quart, but mostly $1.99 a quart.
I won't use a blend 'cause I think that's just a good way for them to charge more for dino oil. Use dino, or use Synthetic, why use both...
Dan
Originally Posted By: JOD
Originally Posted By: burgessdg
Uhhh, CAFE was enacted in 1975. There is no doubt in my mind that the lighter oil scenario was implemented to meet CAFE.
uhhh, 20W oils were in use long before 1975...
No doubt, thinner oils have been increasingly spec'd for fuel economy reasons. Question: so what? Why does that necessarily mean that they don't protect as well or better than thicker oils? That question in never answered in these never-ending CAFE threads.
As far as your car--it's your car, use what you want! I seriously doubt you'll have any warranty problems, and never got all the hand-wringing over it. I mean, what is the likelihood you'll have an issue in the first place--and that oil viscosity will be the deal breaker? Of course, in the incredibly unlikely event that you do have an issue and the mfg calls you on it, then it's on you (ridiculous "Magnuson-Moss" claims otherwise--the manufacturer certainly CAN require an oil viscosity, and no, they don't have to give it to you free of charge...).
Don't use sketchy convenience store oil, keep enough in there and change it occasionally and you'll be fine, regardless of grade. If it makes you feel like a renegade by "stickin' it to the man" and using a heavier oil, have at it.
You never saw any oil advertised as 0W-20 before 1975. And I'm betting not before 2005. 20W has been around forever, not "0W". Sorry, besides being cheap I just don't like light oils for hard use. I believe Honda designed the motor to run on 0W-20. Although I trust their engineering, I just have a problem with "zero" viscosity. I'm only using the 5W-20 because I know the motor was built with tighter tolerances to be able to survive with the thin stuff. And the cost, remember I said I was cheap...
Dan
Originally Posted By: burgessdg
Uhhh, CAFE was enacted in 1975. There is no doubt in my mind that the lighter oil scenario was implemented to meet CAFE.
uhhh, 20W oils were in use long before 1975...
No doubt, thinner oils have been increasingly spec'd for fuel economy reasons. Question: so what? Why does that necessarily mean that they don't protect as well or better than thicker oils? That question in never answered in these never-ending CAFE threads.
As far as your car--it's your car, use what you want! I seriously doubt you'll have any warranty problems, and never got all the hand-wringing over it. I mean, what is the likelihood you'll have an issue in the first place--and that oil viscosity will be the deal breaker? Of course, in the incredibly unlikely event that you do have an issue and the mfg calls you on it, then it's on you (ridiculous "Magnuson-Moss" claims otherwise--the manufacturer certainly CAN require an oil viscosity, and no, they don't have to give it to you free of charge...).
Don't use sketchy convenience store oil, keep enough in there and change it occasionally and you'll be fine, regardless of grade. If it makes you feel like a renegade by "stickin' it to the man" and using a heavier oil, have at it.
You never saw any oil advertised as 0W-20 before 1975. And I'm betting not before 2005. 20W has been around forever, not "0W". Sorry, besides being cheap I just don't like light oils for hard use. I believe Honda designed the motor to run on 0W-20. Although I trust their engineering, I just have a problem with "zero" viscosity. I'm only using the 5W-20 because I know the motor was built with tighter tolerances to be able to survive with the thin stuff. And the cost, remember I said I was cheap...
Dan
Originally Posted By: burgessdg
Originally Posted By: Roob
You'd most likely get an answer from Honda, or the dealership if you asked them.
So why not go to them and tell them how you feel, tell them the oil weight you are using in the 2012 Honda speccing 0w20 and why? They might okay it, or not.
Either way it goes, at least you manned up and you will have an answer. Good luck if you do go.
Personally, I think that some people just don't like being told what to do/use (rebellious spirit) even when it will provide benefit.
Another member alluded to it being more psychological in nature, and he's onto something.
I am going tomorrow and I will ask. I'll let you know what they say. Think I'll be able to get it in writing? LOL
Oh, and the problem I have with 0W-20 is I'm cheap and see no benefit paying 3x the price for oil.
Dan
Ok, went to the dealer today 'cause my ABS lite was on (it was the sensor). So I ask the service writer "I change my own oil and will not use 0W-20, I use 5W-20, what does that do to my warranty?" He says unequivocally, Using 5W-20 will not void your warranty and is perfectly acceptable for use in your van.
So, there's the dealer's answer. Thanks to everyone for their opinions and recommendations.
Dan
Originally Posted By: Roob
You'd most likely get an answer from Honda, or the dealership if you asked them.
So why not go to them and tell them how you feel, tell them the oil weight you are using in the 2012 Honda speccing 0w20 and why? They might okay it, or not.
Either way it goes, at least you manned up and you will have an answer. Good luck if you do go.
Personally, I think that some people just don't like being told what to do/use (rebellious spirit) even when it will provide benefit.
Another member alluded to it being more psychological in nature, and he's onto something.
I am going tomorrow and I will ask. I'll let you know what they say. Think I'll be able to get it in writing? LOL
Oh, and the problem I have with 0W-20 is I'm cheap and see no benefit paying 3x the price for oil.
Dan
Ok, went to the dealer today 'cause my ABS lite was on (it was the sensor). So I ask the service writer "I change my own oil and will not use 0W-20, I use 5W-20, what does that do to my warranty?" He says unequivocally, Using 5W-20 will not void your warranty and is perfectly acceptable for use in your van.
So, there's the dealer's answer. Thanks to everyone for their opinions and recommendations.
Dan
Zero viscosity? Funniest thing I've heard so far. A 0w20 is superior to a 5w20 due to less thickening at low temperatures, better NOACK with synthetic base oils and typically a more premium additive package to go along with the product. The 0 winter rating just means it passes lower temperature viscosity testing than a 5 winter rating 20 grade, they both fall within the range of 5.6-9.3 cst @ 100C.
If you're using a 5w20 but afraid to use a 0w20 then you night as well just use 10w30.
If you're using a 5w20 but afraid to use a 0w20 then you night as well just use 10w30.
wemay
Site Donor 2023
Dan,
Spite one hand to use the other?
0wX is only thinner on startup, not normal operating temps.
Spite one hand to use the other?
0wX is only thinner on startup, not normal operating temps.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
they both fall within the range of 5.6-9.3 cst @ 100C.
I think that you mean 6.9 to 9.3.
Even 16 grades only go down to 6.1cst at 100C
The latest revision of SAE J300 isn't really in effect yet, but the new range will be 6.9 - 9.3
http://www.infineum.com/Documents/API/SAE Viscosity Grades for Engine Oils 2010.pdf
http://standards.sae.org/j300_201304/
No one really took advantage of the lower end of the 20 grade anyways.
Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
they both fall within the range of 5.6-9.3 cst @ 100C.
I think that you mean 6.9 to 9.3.
Even 16 grades only go down to 6.1cst at 100C
The latest revision of SAE J300 isn't really in effect yet, but the new range will be 6.9 - 9.3
http://www.infineum.com/Documents/API/SAE Viscosity Grades for Engine Oils 2010.pdf
http://standards.sae.org/j300_201304/
No one really took advantage of the lower end of the 20 grade anyways.
Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
No one really took advantage of the lower end of the 20 grade anyways.
Most 20 grade oils are already at the HTHSV minimum of 2.6cP for the grade so raising the KV100 minimum to 6.9cSt is academic for motor oils.
No one really took advantage of the lower end of the 20 grade anyways.
Most 20 grade oils are already at the HTHSV minimum of 2.6cP for the grade so raising the KV100 minimum to 6.9cSt is academic for motor oils.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
The latest revision of SAE J300 isn't really in effect yet,
YET ???
It's been in effect since April 2013...
Yes the document is "posted" but do you see 0w16 at Walmart?
Like I said it doesn't really matter since no one who produces an API certified 5w20 was going below 8 cSt @ 100C anyway.
Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
The latest revision of SAE J300 isn't really in effect yet,
YET ???
It's been in effect since April 2013...
Yes the document is "posted" but do you see 0w16 at Walmart?
Like I said it doesn't really matter since no one who produces an API certified 5w20 was going below 8 cSt @ 100C anyway.
Originally Posted By: burgessdg
...
In my area, 0W20 pure synthetic is $5.97 per quart and is never on sale. I have not seen a blend, but would not use a blend anyway. I get name brand dino 5W-20 on sale for as little as $1.80 a quart, but mostly $1.99 a quart.
I won't use a blend 'cause I think that's just a good way for them to charge more for dino oil. Use dino, or use Synthetic, why use both...
Dan
You have Wal-Mart in your area? Mobil 1 0W-20 AFE is on "Rollback" for less than $23 a jug making it around $4.50 a qt. or so. There's also a $12 rebate available (although that might not apply to Wal-Mart). Pennzoil also has a $10 rebate for their oils that applies to 0W-20...
...
In my area, 0W20 pure synthetic is $5.97 per quart and is never on sale. I have not seen a blend, but would not use a blend anyway. I get name brand dino 5W-20 on sale for as little as $1.80 a quart, but mostly $1.99 a quart.
I won't use a blend 'cause I think that's just a good way for them to charge more for dino oil. Use dino, or use Synthetic, why use both...
Dan
You have Wal-Mart in your area? Mobil 1 0W-20 AFE is on "Rollback" for less than $23 a jug making it around $4.50 a qt. or so. There's also a $12 rebate available (although that might not apply to Wal-Mart). Pennzoil also has a $10 rebate for their oils that applies to 0W-20...
Although I don't agree with the OP's reasoning for not using a 0w grade oil, he does have the right to be "cheap" (his words).
I'm sure a brand name 5w20 dino oil will serve his Honda just fine. At least he's sticking with a '20' weight, however, in the original post he claims to be using 5w30...
I'm sure a brand name 5w20 dino oil will serve his Honda just fine. At least he's sticking with a '20' weight, however, in the original post he claims to be using 5w30...
Originally Posted By: burgessdg
Soooo, to answer your question, as the oil ages, additives go away and you end up with more 0 than 20. To the point where you could end up with just 0. Make sense?
Overkill covered much of it. Additionally, as an oil ages, the cold performance tends to be reduced, not improved. Oils can certainly shear over an OCI, but not to the extent you contend. Additionally, 5w-20 oils were specified back in the late 1980s, and tig1 will have to give us his history lesson on M1 20 grades, since he used them at the outset.
Soooo, to answer your question, as the oil ages, additives go away and you end up with more 0 than 20. To the point where you could end up with just 0. Make sense?
Overkill covered much of it. Additionally, as an oil ages, the cold performance tends to be reduced, not improved. Oils can certainly shear over an OCI, but not to the extent you contend. Additionally, 5w-20 oils were specified back in the late 1980s, and tig1 will have to give us his history lesson on M1 20 grades, since he used them at the outset.
With the advent of 20 weight oils being pushed by manufacturers in recent years there hasn't been any evidence of increased engine failures/wear that I've seen. All the doom and gloom that was being pushed by old school folk just hasn't materialized.
I don't think an oil will become more 0 than 20 as it ages as that typically happens with conventional oils, and aren't all 0w-20 oils full synthetic ?. If there are 0w-20 conventional oils then I'd say to stick with full synthetic 0w-20's and you should be fine.
My 2015 Jeep Cherokee will be the first vehicle I've owned that uses 0w-20. I'm looking forward to the cold winter start-ups this upcoming winter as I think these new oils will work wonderfully. My last truck used 5w-20, so I'm anxious to see if there will be much difference at first start-up each morning.
I don't think an oil will become more 0 than 20 as it ages as that typically happens with conventional oils, and aren't all 0w-20 oils full synthetic ?. If there are 0w-20 conventional oils then I'd say to stick with full synthetic 0w-20's and you should be fine.
My 2015 Jeep Cherokee will be the first vehicle I've owned that uses 0w-20. I'm looking forward to the cold winter start-ups this upcoming winter as I think these new oils will work wonderfully. My last truck used 5w-20, so I'm anxious to see if there will be much difference at first start-up each morning.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: burgessdg
Soooo, to answer your question, as the oil ages, additives go away and you end up with more 0 than 20. To the point where you could end up with just 0. Make sense?
Overkill covered much of it. Additionally, as an oil ages, the cold performance tends to be reduced, not improved. Oils can certainly shear over an OCI, but not to the extent you contend. Additionally, 5w-20 oils were specified back in the late 1980s, and tig1 will have to give us his history lesson on M1 20 grades, since he used them at the outset.
I did use M1 5-20 starting in 1978 in a slant 6 Dodge and 305 Chevy V8. No problems except My engines did use a little more oil verse the 10-40 dino I was using, but the cold temp start ups(lived in Maine) were outstanding.
Originally Posted By: burgessdg
Soooo, to answer your question, as the oil ages, additives go away and you end up with more 0 than 20. To the point where you could end up with just 0. Make sense?
Overkill covered much of it. Additionally, as an oil ages, the cold performance tends to be reduced, not improved. Oils can certainly shear over an OCI, but not to the extent you contend. Additionally, 5w-20 oils were specified back in the late 1980s, and tig1 will have to give us his history lesson on M1 20 grades, since he used them at the outset.
I did use M1 5-20 starting in 1978 in a slant 6 Dodge and 305 Chevy V8. No problems except My engines did use a little more oil verse the 10-40 dino I was using, but the cold temp start ups(lived in Maine) were outstanding.
wemay
Site Donor 2023
Originally Posted By: chainblu
Although I don't agree with the OP's reasoning for not using a 0w grade oil, he does have the right to be "cheap" (his words).
I'm sure a brand name 5w20 dino oil will serve his Honda just fine. At least he's sticking with a '20' weight, however, in the original post he claims to be using 5w30...
^Yup, I agree.^
Although I don't agree with the OP's reasoning for not using a 0w grade oil, he does have the right to be "cheap" (his words).
I'm sure a brand name 5w20 dino oil will serve his Honda just fine. At least he's sticking with a '20' weight, however, in the original post he claims to be using 5w30...
^Yup, I agree.^
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