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If he goes with a 0W20 over a 5W20,will the 0W more than likely be a PAO? Or can 0W be created with a grp III base stock? I'm just trying to learn more about how 0W oils work.
0W-20 oil required?
- Thread starter burgessdg
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Originally Posted By: chainblu
Although I don't agree with the OP's reasoning for not using a 0w grade oil, he does have the right to be "cheap" (his words).
I'm sure a brand name 5w20 dino oil will serve his Honda just fine. At least he's sticking with a '20' weight, however, in the original post he claims to be using 5w30...
Sorry chain, and good catch. I did say 5W-30, fat-fingered I guess. I have used 5W-20 for all 4 oil changes since new. And I will continue to do so. Feel much better about still having a warranty though. LOL
P.S. thanks for respecting my right to be cheap. And... I have gotten over 200K on more than 6 vehicles that used dino oil and only got rid of them because of peripherals falling apart. All the motors and trannys were purring like sewing machines when I got rid of them. The rest of the vehicle just started falling apart. I just don't get the synthetic thing, can't justify the cost vs benefit. So, on that aspect, all the synthetic proponents will just have to agree to disagree with me.... or not.
Although I don't agree with the OP's reasoning for not using a 0w grade oil, he does have the right to be "cheap" (his words).
I'm sure a brand name 5w20 dino oil will serve his Honda just fine. At least he's sticking with a '20' weight, however, in the original post he claims to be using 5w30...
Sorry chain, and good catch. I did say 5W-30, fat-fingered I guess. I have used 5W-20 for all 4 oil changes since new. And I will continue to do so. Feel much better about still having a warranty though. LOL
P.S. thanks for respecting my right to be cheap. And... I have gotten over 200K on more than 6 vehicles that used dino oil and only got rid of them because of peripherals falling apart. All the motors and trannys were purring like sewing machines when I got rid of them. The rest of the vehicle just started falling apart. I just don't get the synthetic thing, can't justify the cost vs benefit. So, on that aspect, all the synthetic proponents will just have to agree to disagree with me.... or not.
If this is just a cost thing I doubt you're saving much if anything choosing a dino 5W-20 over the most fuel efficient 0W-20s; namely the OEM Toyota and Mazda brands. You can get the Mobil made Toyota 0W-20 in bulk for about 20 bucks to fill a 5 quart jug.
A dino 5W-20 is not much cheaper than that and once you add in a conservative 2% fuel economy savings (probably more in the winter months) using a dino is probably costing you more. And that's not even factoring the other performance benefits of the high VI 0W-20 grade.
A dino 5W-20 is not much cheaper than that and once you add in a conservative 2% fuel economy savings (probably more in the winter months) using a dino is probably costing you more. And that's not even factoring the other performance benefits of the high VI 0W-20 grade.
burgessdg, I changed from a 15W40 (well over 4 HTHS) to a 5W30 economy oil (3.2HTHS), and got around 2% change in F.E.
ASTM minimum standards expect no difference between 0W20 and 5W20, although their reference oils 542 and 1010 (for GF5) have approximately 0.15% difference between them.
Which is consistent with Mobil's claims of 0.2-2.3% for the 0W20 AFE
Quote:
0.2-2.3% potential fuel economy improvement obtained by switching from higher viscosity oils to a 0W-20 grade
You are unlikely to see any difference measurable or otherwise in fuel economy...it's real, and will be there, but will be in the tenths of percent.
ASTM minimum standards expect no difference between 0W20 and 5W20, although their reference oils 542 and 1010 (for GF5) have approximately 0.15% difference between them.
Which is consistent with Mobil's claims of 0.2-2.3% for the 0W20 AFE
Quote:
0.2-2.3% potential fuel economy improvement obtained by switching from higher viscosity oils to a 0W-20 grade
You are unlikely to see any difference measurable or otherwise in fuel economy...it's real, and will be there, but will be in the tenths of percent.
A Winter rating of Zero is not a viscosity or oil weight of Zero. You are completely misunderstanding what the "0w" means- in cold weather startups, the thickened, heavy, slow-moving 0w-20 oil is marginally thinner (a good thing) than any 5w-XX like a 5w-20. At no point (short of falling into the sun) is it actually running at 0 weight.
Originally Posted By: HangFire
A Winter rating of Zero is not a viscosity or oil weight of Zero. You are completely misunderstanding what the "0w" means- in cold weather startups, the thickened, heavy, slow-moving 0w-20 oil is marginally thinner (a good thing) than any 5w-XX like a 5w-20. At no point (short of falling into the sun) is it actually running at 0 weight.
Then why call it "0"? What will they do when they get something thinner? -5W-20? I realize that you actually have to look at the real viscosity #'s, and the 0 like the 5 is a reference #. Still not paying 3X as much for "0" than "5" LOL...
Dan
A Winter rating of Zero is not a viscosity or oil weight of Zero. You are completely misunderstanding what the "0w" means- in cold weather startups, the thickened, heavy, slow-moving 0w-20 oil is marginally thinner (a good thing) than any 5w-XX like a 5w-20. At no point (short of falling into the sun) is it actually running at 0 weight.
Then why call it "0"? What will they do when they get something thinner? -5W-20? I realize that you actually have to look at the real viscosity #'s, and the 0 like the 5 is a reference #. Still not paying 3X as much for "0" than "5" LOL...
Dan
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
If this is just a cost thing I doubt you're saving much if anything choosing a dino 5W-20 over the most fuel efficient 0W-20s; namely the OEM Toyota and Mazda brands. You can get the Mobil made Toyota 0W-20 in bulk for about 20 bucks to fill a 5 quart jug.
A dino 5W-20 is not much cheaper than that and once you add in a conservative 2% fuel economy savings (probably more in the winter months) using a dino is probably costing you more. And that's not even factoring the other performance benefits of the high VI 0W-20 grade.
Ok, $20 for synthetic, less than $10 for the dino. That's $10. Oh, and no Toyota or Mazda dealers within 30 miles. And 2% for 0W-20 syn over 5W-20 dino? Never happen. And any other performance benefits are claims, not fact as far as I'm concerned. I have used synthetic in the past, saw nothing to justify the cost. Sorry, just can't buy all the synthetic hype.
Dan
If this is just a cost thing I doubt you're saving much if anything choosing a dino 5W-20 over the most fuel efficient 0W-20s; namely the OEM Toyota and Mazda brands. You can get the Mobil made Toyota 0W-20 in bulk for about 20 bucks to fill a 5 quart jug.
A dino 5W-20 is not much cheaper than that and once you add in a conservative 2% fuel economy savings (probably more in the winter months) using a dino is probably costing you more. And that's not even factoring the other performance benefits of the high VI 0W-20 grade.
Ok, $20 for synthetic, less than $10 for the dino. That's $10. Oh, and no Toyota or Mazda dealers within 30 miles. And 2% for 0W-20 syn over 5W-20 dino? Never happen. And any other performance benefits are claims, not fact as far as I'm concerned. I have used synthetic in the past, saw nothing to justify the cost. Sorry, just can't buy all the synthetic hype.
Dan
Originally Posted By: burgessdg
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
If this is just a cost thing I doubt you're saving much if anything choosing a dino 5W-20 over the most fuel efficient 0W-20s; namely the OEM Toyota and Mazda brands. You can get the Mobil made Toyota 0W-20 in bulk for about 20 bucks to fill a 5 quart jug.
A dino 5W-20 is not much cheaper than that and once you add in a conservative 2% fuel economy savings (probably more in the winter months) using a dino is probably costing you more. And that's not even factoring the other performance benefits of the high VI 0W-20 grade.
Ok, $20 for synthetic, less than $10 for the dino. That's $10. Oh, and no Toyota or Mazda dealers within 30 miles. And 2% for 0W-20 syn over 5W-20 dino? Never happen. And any other performance benefits are claims, not fact as far as I'm concerned. I have used synthetic in the past, saw nothing to justify the cost. Sorry, just can't buy all the synthetic hype.
Dan
Interesting observation.
I use synthetics only when I can buy them for less than the conventional counterparts regular price,and because of my climate the slightly better viscometrics help cold starts and I run them for double the miles,so my cost per mile is actually less using a syn than a conventional.
Only in my cars and trucks though. My bikes get plain old conventional rotella t 15w-40 and I run it 3000 miles and I'm happy.
I just can't justify paying big bucks for bike oils when plain jane hdeo's are more than capable for my short intervals.
So I see your point except in my case using a syn in my cages is cheaper than conventionals.
My bikes get a 3000 mile change regardless of syn or conventional,so in the bikes it's more cost effective to use a conventional.
So if you are happy doing what your doing then keep on keeping on.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
If this is just a cost thing I doubt you're saving much if anything choosing a dino 5W-20 over the most fuel efficient 0W-20s; namely the OEM Toyota and Mazda brands. You can get the Mobil made Toyota 0W-20 in bulk for about 20 bucks to fill a 5 quart jug.
A dino 5W-20 is not much cheaper than that and once you add in a conservative 2% fuel economy savings (probably more in the winter months) using a dino is probably costing you more. And that's not even factoring the other performance benefits of the high VI 0W-20 grade.
Ok, $20 for synthetic, less than $10 for the dino. That's $10. Oh, and no Toyota or Mazda dealers within 30 miles. And 2% for 0W-20 syn over 5W-20 dino? Never happen. And any other performance benefits are claims, not fact as far as I'm concerned. I have used synthetic in the past, saw nothing to justify the cost. Sorry, just can't buy all the synthetic hype.
Dan
Interesting observation.
I use synthetics only when I can buy them for less than the conventional counterparts regular price,and because of my climate the slightly better viscometrics help cold starts and I run them for double the miles,so my cost per mile is actually less using a syn than a conventional.
Only in my cars and trucks though. My bikes get plain old conventional rotella t 15w-40 and I run it 3000 miles and I'm happy.
I just can't justify paying big bucks for bike oils when plain jane hdeo's are more than capable for my short intervals.
So I see your point except in my case using a syn in my cages is cheaper than conventionals.
My bikes get a 3000 mile change regardless of syn or conventional,so in the bikes it's more cost effective to use a conventional.
So if you are happy doing what your doing then keep on keeping on.
Originally Posted By: burgessdg
Then why call it "0"? What will they do when they get something thinner? -5W-20? I realize that you actually have to look at the real viscosity #'s, and the 0 like the 5 is a reference #. Still not paying 3X as much for "0" than "5" LOL...
Well, the "w" part reflects cold cranking performance at given temperatures. The part after the "w" reflects kinematic viscosity. Considering there currently is no lower limit on viscosity to qualify as a 0w-XX, no matter how much thinner the lube is below the minimum requirements for 0w-XX rating, it's still a 0w-XX lube.
Then why call it "0"? What will they do when they get something thinner? -5W-20? I realize that you actually have to look at the real viscosity #'s, and the 0 like the 5 is a reference #. Still not paying 3X as much for "0" than "5" LOL...
Well, the "w" part reflects cold cranking performance at given temperatures. The part after the "w" reflects kinematic viscosity. Considering there currently is no lower limit on viscosity to qualify as a 0w-XX, no matter how much thinner the lube is below the minimum requirements for 0w-XX rating, it's still a 0w-XX lube.
OVERKILL
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Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: burgessdg
Then why call it "0"? What will they do when they get something thinner? -5W-20? I realize that you actually have to look at the real viscosity #'s, and the 0 like the 5 is a reference #. Still not paying 3X as much for "0" than "5" LOL...
Well, the "w" part reflects cold cranking performance at given temperatures. The part after the "w" reflects kinematic viscosity. Considering there currently is no lower limit on viscosity to qualify as a 0w-XX, no matter how much thinner the lube is below the minimum requirements for 0w-XX rating, it's still a 0w-XX lube.
Exactly
Hence the chart I posted earlier.
Unless there becomes a compelling reason to start testing oils at -45C/40C instead of -40C/-35C, there isn't a need for something lower than 0w-xx.
Originally Posted By: burgessdg
Then why call it "0"? What will they do when they get something thinner? -5W-20? I realize that you actually have to look at the real viscosity #'s, and the 0 like the 5 is a reference #. Still not paying 3X as much for "0" than "5" LOL...
Well, the "w" part reflects cold cranking performance at given temperatures. The part after the "w" reflects kinematic viscosity. Considering there currently is no lower limit on viscosity to qualify as a 0w-XX, no matter how much thinner the lube is below the minimum requirements for 0w-XX rating, it's still a 0w-XX lube.
Exactly
Hence the chart I posted earlier.
Unless there becomes a compelling reason to start testing oils at -45C/40C instead of -40C/-35C, there isn't a need for something lower than 0w-xx.
Originally Posted By: burgessdg
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
If this is just a cost thing I doubt you're saving much if anything choosing a dino 5W-20 over the most fuel efficient 0W-20s; namely the OEM Toyota and Mazda brands. You can get the Mobil made Toyota 0W-20 in bulk for about 20 bucks to fill a 5 quart jug.
A dino 5W-20 is not much cheaper than that and once you add in a conservative 2% fuel economy savings (probably more in the winter months) using a dino is probably costing you more. And that's not even factoring the other performance benefits of the high VI 0W-20 grade.
Ok, $20 for synthetic, less than $10 for the dino. That's $10. Oh, and no Toyota or Mazda dealers within 30 miles. And 2% for 0W-20 syn over 5W-20 dino? Never happen. And any other performance benefits are claims, not fact as far as I'm concerned. I have used synthetic in the past, saw nothing to justify the cost. Sorry, just can't buy all the synthetic hype.
Dan
You don't have to apologize to me if you don't "buy all the synthetic hype". I do understand that it's human nature for some
to automatically reject anything that's new even without trying it, but that's your loss no one else.
I will tell you that the first time I tried the Toyota 0W-20, about five years ago now, I was shocked at how low my cold oil pressure was that I thought something was wrong. But it was just a reflection of how light the oil is when cold vs a 5W-20 (even a 5W-20 synthetic).
How much lighter? A good 30% at room temperature, over 55% at 32F and even more so at lower temp's.
Now if you want to think this fact has no significant impact on fuel economy and performance generally that's fine; somebody has to buy all the dino out there.
I used to be able to get all the dino 5W-20/30 oil I wanted for free from a friend in the trade but once I found out first hand the performance benefits of the high viscosity index 0W-XX synthetic oils I stopped using dino oil entirely.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
If this is just a cost thing I doubt you're saving much if anything choosing a dino 5W-20 over the most fuel efficient 0W-20s; namely the OEM Toyota and Mazda brands. You can get the Mobil made Toyota 0W-20 in bulk for about 20 bucks to fill a 5 quart jug.
A dino 5W-20 is not much cheaper than that and once you add in a conservative 2% fuel economy savings (probably more in the winter months) using a dino is probably costing you more. And that's not even factoring the other performance benefits of the high VI 0W-20 grade.
Ok, $20 for synthetic, less than $10 for the dino. That's $10. Oh, and no Toyota or Mazda dealers within 30 miles. And 2% for 0W-20 syn over 5W-20 dino? Never happen. And any other performance benefits are claims, not fact as far as I'm concerned. I have used synthetic in the past, saw nothing to justify the cost. Sorry, just can't buy all the synthetic hype.
Dan
You don't have to apologize to me if you don't "buy all the synthetic hype". I do understand that it's human nature for some
to automatically reject anything that's new even without trying it, but that's your loss no one else.
I will tell you that the first time I tried the Toyota 0W-20, about five years ago now, I was shocked at how low my cold oil pressure was that I thought something was wrong. But it was just a reflection of how light the oil is when cold vs a 5W-20 (even a 5W-20 synthetic).
How much lighter? A good 30% at room temperature, over 55% at 32F and even more so at lower temp's.
Now if you want to think this fact has no significant impact on fuel economy and performance generally that's fine; somebody has to buy all the dino out there.
I used to be able to get all the dino 5W-20/30 oil I wanted for free from a friend in the trade but once I found out first hand the performance benefits of the high viscosity index 0W-XX synthetic oils I stopped using dino oil entirely.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Unless there becomes a compelling reason to start testing oils at -45C/40C instead of -40C/-35C, there isn't a need for something lower than 0w-xx.
Exactly, or if someone is really interested in the best flowing oil in cold temperatures, they can look for the best MRV numbers within the 0w-XX universe.
Unless there becomes a compelling reason to start testing oils at -45C/40C instead of -40C/-35C, there isn't a need for something lower than 0w-xx.
Exactly, or if someone is really interested in the best flowing oil in cold temperatures, they can look for the best MRV numbers within the 0w-XX universe.
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