0W-16 Strength & Durability

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TGMO 0w-20 is 227 VI a GTL made by Exxon/Mobil. I am changing my view of this oil that I have been using because of the high VI. (high VII) Not that Noack has anything to do with anything (IVD) but does point to the quality of the base oil. Noack on TGMO is 12.9.
Exxon/Mobil has it’s own lubricating branch. Mobil 1 is separate. You have a SRT, thought you might like to see this video. The oil they factory fill.


Too bad you cant buy this stuff anywhere. I honestly wonder why Pennzoil even makes it.
 

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TGMO 0w-20 is 227 VI a GTL made by Exxon/Mobil. I am changing my view of this oil that I have been using because of the high VI. (high VII) Not that Noack has anything to do with anything (IVD) but does point to the quality of the base oil. Noack on TGMO is 12.9.
Exxon/Mobil has it’s own lubricating branch. Mobil 1 is separate. You have a SRT, thought you might like to see this video. The oil they factory fill.


Where did you get the idea that it was GTL?

Last MSDS I have from Mobil showed it as Group III (64742-54-7), unless you've got a newer one that shows different?
Screen Shot 2022-01-12 at 12.42.40 PM.png


Whereas GTL (this is an older M1 0w-40 SDS) is 848301-69-9:
Screen Shot 2022-01-12 at 12.43.28 PM.png


Screen Shot 2022-01-12 at 12.45.10 PM.png


As far as Noack goes, yes, it points to base oil viscosity and quality. The Ravenol VSE is 10.4%, and their ECS has an even lower VI and subsequently lower Noack:
Screen Shot 2022-01-12 at 12.48.37 PM.png


And yes, I'm well aware that XOM blends products other than Mobil 1, I'm not sure why you felt that warranted mentioning, given the material I've presented in this thread? 🤷‍♂️
 
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Too bad you cant buy this stuff anywhere. I honestly wonder why Pennzoil even makes it.
?

The PUP 0w-40 (SRT 0w-40) is widely available, is my understanding, in the US stores, lots of guys on here bought it:
1642010198637.jpg


My opinion on it is that it's basically an SN/GF-5 additive package that you'd find in a 5w-30/5w-20 put in a 0w-40. It's less robust than the Euro 0w-40 that it replaced, which is one of the reasons I don't use it.
 
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The 0w-xx designation is not a base oil viscosity, it's just a temperature performance target, as shown in the chart.

Blending is not as simple as just choosing a base oil that meets the Winter rating (like a 2cSt Group III) and just pumping it full of VII, as there are numerous parameters that must be met in order to satisfy performance targets.

Mobil makes numerous PAO bases that can meet the 0w-xx performance target, in varying viscosities. When blending using them, and other bases, the ones you might use will depend on what the application is. An 8cSt PAO can be blended straight to make a 0w-20 (no VII) for example, but what we see from the VI on the finished products is that this approach isn't taken. AMSOIL famously sold a 10w-30 with no VII for a while, not sure if they still do.


An oil like a Euro 0w-40 has to meet strict Noack limits, which means heavier bases are going to be used vs say a GF-5 0w-30 that can have a Noack of 13% when economics are brought into the picture. You'll see the opposite of that in one of the tables I'll show below where a "no holds barred" approach is taken in blending a PAO + ester 0w-30 which of course has less VII than the similarly blended 0w-40.

We can see some of the Japanese fuel economy OEM lubes used wickedly light bases, which you can tell by the Noack volatility:
View attachment 84146

Here are the Shell GTL bases, you can see that they have excellent CCS values:
View attachment 84147

One could blend the 5cSt base with the 8cSt base to get an acceptable 0w-20 for example that would need very little VII.

Here's a Mobil chart showing that you can use a blend of Group II+ and Group III to drive down the cost of your 0w-20:
View attachment 84148

Another few examples from the Mobil blending guide:
Group III with PAO, you can see they use more, lighter PAO in the 0w-40 than the 0w-30 and more VII:
View attachment 84149

PAO with Group II+ this time, similar approach, but more PAO:
View attachment 84150

Straight PAO with 10% ester, clearly a heavier base oil blend than the other two shown above:
View attachment 84151

And another chart that shows that the base oil selection changes depending on the grade (this is just PAO + ester). Now consider that the Noack on M1 0w-40 is actually 8.8% (lower than shown below) and the majority of 0w-20 and 0w-30 lubes on the market are not blended like shown in this table. Because a 0w-20 blended with PAO needs VERY little (or none if you are being adventurous) VII, you can use a base oil blend that gets you extremely close to your hot viscosity target. On the other hand, the 0w-30 and 0w-40 will need more VII for the same type of base oil blend and subsequently need to use a lighter blend as a starting point to retain their cold temperature performance with the VII added.
View attachment 84152

As I noted at the beginning, these are "ideal" blends, using expensive bases. In reality, none of the 0w-20 or 0w-30's you buy are going to be blended like the above except maybe M1 EP 0w-20, which is ~70% PAO. They'll be more like the Mobil EHC example with the lighter Group III (and potentially Group II+ added) bases, with PPD's, and a heavier VII treat, and this is typically reflected in the Noack.

That's something Shell has done well with, as their GTL bases have very low Noack numbers, even the light bases. The Japanese oils, like TGMO, with very high VI's, use very light bases and a lot of VII to achieve that high VI. The natural VI of even PAO isn't very high, so how you achieve a "stratospheric" viscosity index is by using very light bases and a high VII treat rate. The 0w-20 in the table above for example has a VI of only 162.
Out of this whole, excellent post.. isn't the VI-free Amsoil 10W-30 the Amsoil XL?

Dave from HPL and I talked about this during my visit, (I am honored they made time for me. I'm actually humbled,) we mentioned exactly this. We said that, there are some on the oil site that feel they don't want an oil with VIIs, and the only way that makes sense is if your VIis are **** let's say substandard quailty lol.

Your VIIs give you your VI which you want to be high.... unless your VIIs themselves are of a configuration that theirs is low,.. I am remembering this as best I can, Dave from HPL or someone else, please get in here to correct me if I have this wrong. Thank you?
 

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Out of this whole, excellent post.. isn't the VI-free Amsoil 10W-30 the Amsoil XL?

Dave from HPL and I talked about this during my visit, (I am honored they made time for me. I'm actually humbled,) we mentioned exactly this. We said that, there are some on the oil site that feel they don't want an oil with VIIs, and the only way that makes sense is if your VIis are **** let's say substandard quailty lol.

Your VIIs give you your VI which you want to be high.... unless your VIIs themselves are of a configuration that theirs is low,.. I am remembering this as best I can, Dave from HPL or someone else, please get in here to correct me if I have this wrong. Thank you?
Nooooo, the XL oils are Group III, you couldn't blend a VII-free Group III 10w-30, you have to use PAO.

It was either the racing or small engine 10w-30, sold as an SAE30/10w-30.

You don't just want a "high" VI. If that's the only goal, you can use a wickedly light base and lots of VII but then your Noack becomes crap, the odds of deposit formation are increased, and you risk having the VII polymers shear, resulting in viscosity loss.

It's a balancing act based on the intended performance targets. A PAO-based 0w-20 with a VI of 156 like the Ravenol product I posted above, will have considerably less VII in it than TGMO which is Group III with a VI of over 200. More plastic and less base oil isn't something one pursues "just because". It will buy you more fuel economy gains at typical start up temps, being a bit lighter, but won't work any better in the extreme cold and in fact will likely be inferior as the PAO-based lube doesn't depend on PPD's for its cold temperature performance.

Using low volatility high quality base oils lets you get away with using less VII, which will improve viscosity retention and reduce volatility of the final product, but this will also lower the VI. It's a balancing act.
 
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?

The PUP 0w-40 (SRT 0w-40) is widely available, is my understanding, in the US stores, lots of guys on here bought it:
View attachment 84175

My opinion on it is that it's basically an SN/GF-5 additive package that you'd find in a 5w-30/5w-20 put in a 0w-40. It's less robust than the Euro 0w-40 that it replaced, which is one of the reasons I don't use it.
 

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Nooooo, the XL oils are Group III, you couldn't blend a VII-free Group III 10w-30, you have to use PAO.

It was either the racing or small engine 10w-30, sold as an SAE30/10w-30.

You don't just want a "high" VI. If that's the only goal, you can use a wickedly light base and lots of VII but then your Noack becomes crap, the odds of deposit formation are increased, and you risk having the VII polymers shear, resulting in viscosity loss.

It's a balancing act based on the intended performance targets. A PAO-based 0w-20 with a VI of 156 like the Ravenol product I posted above, will have considerably less VII in it than TGMO which is Group III with a VI of over 200. More plastic and less base oil isn't something one pursues "just because". It will buy you more fuel economy gains at typical start up temps, being a bit lighter, but won't work any better in the extreme cold and in fact will likely be inferior as the PAO-based lube doesn't depend on PPD's for its cold temperature performance.

Using low volatility high quality base oils lets you get away with using less VII, which will improve viscosity retention and reduce volatility of the final product, but this will also lower the VI. It's a balancing act.
Wonder if we are not seeing the difference in Shell products - RGT can’t be the same materials as PP …
The RGT base number decay seems faster …
 
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TGMO 0w-20 is 227 VI a GTL made by Exxon/Mobil. I am changing my view of this oil that I have been using because of the high VI. (high VII) Not that Noack has anything to do with anything (IVD) but does point to the quality of the base oil. Noack on TGMO is 12.9.
Exxon/Mobil has it’s own lubricating branch. Mobil 1 is separate. You have a SRT, thought you might like to see this video. The oil they factory fill.


I always thought TGMO is a GIII oil, closer to Mobil Super/Synthetic(AZ) than PAO/GIII+/AN blended M1.

XOM, along with Shell makes lubricants for all sorts of things - their consumer-facing side is a small figment of it. XOM and Shell is also big in aviation and industrial lubricants - the former along with Eastman are the two biggest suppliers of POE turbine oils and aviation hydraulic phosphate ester hydraulic fluid.
 

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I always thought TGMO is a GIII oil, closer to Mobil Super/Synthetic(AZ) than PAO/GIII+/AN blended M1.

XOM, along with Shell makes lubricants for all sorts of things - their consumer-facing side is a small figment of it. XOM and Shell is also big in aviation and industrial lubricants - the former along with Eastman are the two biggest suppliers of POE turbine oils and aviation hydraulic phosphate ester hydraulic fluid.
Yep - gearbox for a cement grinder is not like a sexy race car - but makes big money whilst being tough on oil …
 
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?

The PUP 0w-40 (SRT 0w-40) is widely available, is my understanding, in the US stores, lots of guys on here bought it:
View attachment 84175

My opinion on it is that it's basically an SN/GF-5 additive package that you'd find in a 5w-30/5w-20 put in a 0w-40. It's less robust than the Euro 0w-40 that it replaced, which is one of the reasons I don't use it.
I’ve honestly never seen this stuff before. The only one I remember ever seeing was the first generation Pennzoil Ultra (was it maybe in a black or gray bottle?) in this tiny small town Walmart years ago.
 
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?

The PUP 0w-40 (SRT 0w-40) is widely available, is my understanding, in the US stores, lots of guys on here bought it:
View attachment 84175

My opinion on it is that it's basically an SN/GF-5 additive package that you'd find in a 5w-30/5w-20 put in a 0w-40. It's less robust than the Euro 0w-40 that it replaced, which is one of the reasons I don't use it.
I bought mine online, no one around me stocks it.

EDIT: The dealer had it, but like $15 a quart.
 

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You don't just want a "high" VI. If that's the only goal, you can use a wickedly light base and lots of VII but then your Noack becomes crap, the odds of deposit formation are increased, and you risk having the VII polymers shear, resulting in viscosity loss.
I went with Valvoline Advanced 5W-30 (when it was API SN+) because the VI was 158, HTHS at 3.2 and the Noack was 9.3. The VI has increased slightly to 162 with API SP.
 

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I’ve honestly never seen this stuff before. The only one I remember ever seeing was the first generation Pennzoil Ultra (was it maybe in a black or gray bottle?) in this tiny small town Walmart years ago.

I ran an OCI of the PU Euro 5w-40, it was known for viscosity loss IIRC. I remember when the SRT 0w-40 first showed up, lots of guys were finding it and buying it :)
 
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