Second Partticle Counts Complete

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He is not stating that he advocates less data per se. But that he actually goes through from experience different methods than most to get accurate consistent data.




Hard to understand what you're saying here, but it sounds to me like you're assuming that no one else has learned proper laboratory procedures. I believe I had it well nailed down by the time I completed my first two undergraduate Chemistry labs 31 years ago. Three science and engineering degrees and 25+ years engineering experience later, I think I got it down to where I can smell a bad procedure from 1000 yards away, while blind folded.

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On another thread he was mentioning how you could get pre-cleaned bottles for sample or just use a double rinse method. There is more to it than just sticking a bottle in the stream. Did you clean your sample thief etc etc.




See the above.

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Now with that and a lab he trust for consistency he got results based on his experience that verified what he already suspected. Could he have had a bad sample sure. Did he? Probably not. It just backed up data from years of experience and hands on practical application testing.




Good point on lab consistency. But unfortunately George has yet to give us any details HIS PROCEDURES and the lab he used. Further he has yet to give us any details on the procedures his lab used to generate the data, even though he has been repeatedly asked.

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Now with good samples I am sure he'd have no problem comparing notes and seeing it proven again. However the first, second, or third result that did not agree, he is cautioning that, that would not mean the filters were sub-standard or even that there is a problem at all. That is probably his major concern.




Again, you're assuming George's data is somehow automatically more valid than anyone else's. If you want to BELIEVE that, that's fine. But that isn't how science works. Science is based on repeatable experimental results than can be verified. That's why I've been advocating more than 1 or 2 results. I'd like to see at least 5 test runs with all the data more or less pointing in the same direction before I'd be willing to say we're seeing a significant difference.

If the accumulated data is inconsistent, then maybe we need to look at why. Maybe it's the competence of the labs, or the PC procedure, or even different sampling procedures. But you don't start out automatically assuming Goerge's data is correct and that if everyone elses's doesn't agree, they all must be wrong.

And finally, which I'll be repeating this for the umpteenth time, there's a distinction between a "significance difference" and the "size of the difference" and how that correlates with various cost/benefit models.
 
I have not assumed that George's data is more valid than anyones. Just due to his listed experience probably better than most. When I was in the Navy I had to teach guys to take proper samples. Not that is was anything hard it was not. But there is some basic methodology to it that must be observed. Now if you are experienced in said subject that like I said I am sure George would welcome peer review. I would welcome it.

The biggest point is that the average joe gets his sample bottle opens it looks at it and what not then takes a potentially contaminated sample and we all go GAGA over a bad sample and say the filter is no good.

Now if we take some relatively experienced folk and find some troubling data and go back and confirm it or dismiss as a bad sample then we have proper peer review which this board should aspire too. This will give you your scientific model which is wonderful and also something we should aspire too and by me more than welcome.

I truly feel we would benefit from more results and it would be great to see more results and hopefully confirm the efficiency of this filter. If it works then the next step is see how it relates to wear numbers and possible OCI life expectancy improvements. That could give us data for those who want the cost benefit analysis to extrapolate from.

I was more or less trying to give another side to what he wrote and more how I too what he said in his post not my own opinion so much.

Kind of back up give him a little breathing room. No need to be so hostile around here. It is all in good fun.

Heck I might even do Particle counts on my oil to see what happens too. I currently have Amsoil ASL with a Motorcraft FL300 and just ordered the EaO to try myself. fun Fun FUN!!!

Have a Coke and a smile and relax a bit. Maybe tae your own and tell us what you find. I'll guarantee you I'd like to know.
 
I actually got two filters so I may go 3K on Motorcraft then next 3K on Amsoil EaO96 filter. Only topping off the oil at that point. Then at 6K drop oil and and filter for new and see where I stand on UOA. Should be fun.
 
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No need to be so hostile around here. It is all in good fun.




No one is getting hostile here as far as I can tell. I think some of you confuse disagreement with being disagreeable. I take it you never had to get up in front of a bunch PhDs and defend your dissertation? Or, being in the Navy, didn't the Inspector General come around once a year?

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I have not assumed that George's data is more valid than anyones. Just due to his listed experience probably better than most.




Those look like contradictory sentences to me.

In any event, the validity of a scientific concept is not a matter of supposed claimed experience on a website, nor is it a matter of how many people vote for it or against it. It's a matter of the evidence upon which is based.
 
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..............In any event, the validity of a scientific concept is not a matter of supposed claimed experience on a website, nor is it a matter of how many people vote for it or against it. It's a matter of the evidence upon which is based.




Too bad this standard is not being applied to the global warming debate
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I actually got two filters so I may go 3K on Motorcraft then next 3K on Amsoil EaO96 filter. Only topping off the oil at that point. Then at 6K drop oil and and filter for new and see where I stand on UOA. Should be fun.




ewetho,

I am very interested in what your results will show, please keep in touch. Are you going to do a blotter test before you change the filter and then after? See if the oil tone changes after installing the Eao. I'd like to compare what I have experienced with yours.

Harry
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BTW,
Please moniter the oil pressure light to see how long it stays on with the Eao. Mine just blinks on and off after a change.
 
May just do that and see if it actually lightens up appreciatively.
My oil light stayed on for while after start-up even when filling the filter with oil. Heck it ain't too fast on a normal startup either. Neons are slow that way. But you can surely hear it. When changing oil I suspect the Oil pump galley drains pretty well and thus still takes a few moment without concern of the filter type.
Promise to write and tell all about it when it goes down. Suspect a couple months though to get to 3K. Might just nail it at 2K. We will see.
 
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..............In any event, the validity of a scientific concept is not a matter of supposed claimed experience on a website, nor is it a matter of how many people vote for it or against it. It's a matter of the evidence upon which is based.




Too bad this standard is not being applied to the global warming debate
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True..so true!
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No need to be so hostile around here. It is all in good fun.




No one is getting hostile here as far as I can tell. I think some of you confuse disagreement with being disagreeable. I take it you never had to get up in front of a bunch PhDs and defend your dissertation? Or, being in the Navy, didn't the Inspector General come around once a year?

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I have not assumed that George's data is more valid than anyones. Just due to his listed experience probably better than most.




Those look like contradictory sentences to me.

In any event, the validity of a scientific concept is not a matter of supposed claimed experience on a website, nor is it a matter of how many people vote for it or against it. It's a matter of the evidence upon which is based.




Never got to do the multi PhD thing but had more Master degreed individuals than an enlisted guys wants to deal with while opening the proverbial can of worms. Anyway went the inspection team came out from squadron or from DC itself I have won more than one argument with those folks.

Hostility, disagreeable splitting hairs a bit sometimes was not saying you were jumping down anyone throat getting ready to go ballistic or anything.

As far as statements contradicting each other, as I have said before with some basic safeguards that some may not know right off, I would not value his data more than say mine or your but the average Joe may not understand sample contamination from a new bottle. That said I welcome peer review and taking GeorgeCLS at his word for experience, I find his data with lack of available peer review available compelling. But his data compared to what he expected, what I have been able to find outside and my past experiences and known examples from other industry applications I find it completely plausible if not likely. Combine that with some anecdotal evidence on the board and the available posted comments from the likes Terry Dyson and it leads to me to conclude at this time based on fairly qualified evidence available that IT IS probably the cats meow of oil filters at this time for cars.

Now how much it will help in relation to wear and OCI longevity is as of yet undetermined. Hopefully we shall see good things to come with Long Drain Interval Synthetic usage.



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Yes, it is strange that no everyone notices the "hostility" on this thread except 427Z06. My sharing seems to upset him so, as I am pointing all of my comments as directed at him and him alone. 427Z06 (I would like to call him by his name but he prefers to hide behind this number) takes issue, line by line, with everything I am sharing from my professional experience of 30+ years of lubrication. I think the concept of this site and thread is for the pleasant exchange of information from all sides, not the machine gun blasting questioning of every aspect of one's presentation, especially when it is fact.. Chemistry 101 does NOT cover proper sampling technique for particle counts. Chem 101 does not cover "sterile PC bottles vs. non sterile PC bottles".. My comments, again, not directed at 427Z06, were for all folks who may be considering particle count sampling and its extreme sensititivies..

Moreover the snide comments about "being the only true engineer here" (or in the world, methinks), are totally out of place and definitely hostile along with your many other negative comments too numerous to mention. I do not think you, 427, had your PhD evaluators standing before you spouting their vitae... Are you having problems at work, being beaten by your wife or what??? Yout attitude and continued abrasive comments are simply horrible, as expressed again and again on this thread....
I am simply sharing my professional experiences and knowledge from my daily work. I am not saying I am "the only lube engineer" on this site, downgrading other people as you are and am open to all comments both constructive and negative. But this continual, continuous thread of negative barrage is beyond me.. Don't need it...
George Morrison, STLE CLS
 
Thanks for all your interesting tests and observations George, you know that you'll always have someone stirring the pot. Please continue to post and test, not every one is such an abrasive sceptic. I am looking forward to your 10,000 mile evaluations.

Harry
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Well George, it's funny how some will question the knowledge, capabilities, and professionalism of others, yet when they're treated to the same scrutiny, it's automatically called hostile. Go back through the thread and see who's credentials were questioned first either directly or implied.

And to set the record straight, I'm not hiding behind a number. I'm protecting my family. See...I happen to have run across another thin skinned wacko on an internet several years ago who couldn't stand constructive criticism either. Only he showed up on my doorstep and proceeded to harass my family while I was out of town. I promised my family that would never happen again. Oh, and I'll let it slide that you just insulted me, again.

Now if you want to continue this discussion, I have a question for you. You once said something to the effect that, "it would take a 1 micron Beta 200 level (absolute) real micro-glass filter to achieve the Holy Grail of filtration...a 15/13/10 cleanliness level. But you can't filter engine oil with VIIs in them with such a filter since it'll strip out the VIIs." Parts of which I'm paraphrasing.

Yet, here you report that you just received a PC with ISO cleanliness level of 14/13/11. Further, this is the crème de le crème of results, since according to some here, you're the only person here qualified to produce such accurate results.

Care to explain how you achieved such a cleanliness level without stripping out the VIIs.
 
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Chemistry 101 does NOT cover proper sampling technique for particle counts. Chem 101 does not cover "sterile PC bottles vs. non sterile PC bottles"...




My comments are not directed to George, but if anyone else takes Chem 101 Lab and hasn't figured out the cleanliness angle by the time they've completed the "Titration of an Unknown Acid", they're going to have a hard time with the more advanced classes.

http://www.people.eku.edu/ramseyp/campus/chemistry/index.htm
 
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...PC with ISO cleanliness level of 14/13/11. Further, this is the crème de le crème of results, since according to some here, you're the only person here qualified to produce such accurate results...




427Z06, I had a 14/13/11 on a 10k dino run with OEM Honda Filtech filter...

Code:

Particle Count

ISO Code (2) 14/10 clean

NAS 1638 Class 0

ISO Code (3) 14/13/11

>= 2 micron 252

>= 5 micron 93

>= 10 micron 25

>= 15 micron 10

>= 25 micron 2

>= 50 micron 0

>= 100 micron 0


10k dino UOA thread here

I didn't think anything of it, was that a good PC
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Compared to my 9k PC with PureOne filter, it's stellar.

ISO Particle Count: 17/16/13,
Particles were:
>2 micron = 1,666,
>5 mu = 617 mu,
>10mu = 170,
>15 mu = 66,
>25 mu = 15,
>50 mu = 1,
>100 mu = 0.
 
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427Z06, I had a 14/13/11 on a 10k dino run with OEM Honda Filtech filter...

...I didn't think anything of it, was that a good PC
dunno.gif
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IMHO, it's outstanding, but I might have a hard time believing it's accurate, considering it's from a sample with 10K miles on it. Although the longer run might of allowed the filter to reach it's peak efficiency, that's pretty darn clean for 10K miles and an OEM filter. Could be the lab variability mentioned above. Or, by any chance did you take the sample after the oil sat undisturbed for a lengthy amount of time?
 
427Z06,

An approx 50 mile drive completed my 10k OCI, and I immediately put it up on ramps afterwards. The car only sat for a few minutes (time enough for me to put on shop clothes and get together my oil change stuff). I wiped down the pan near the drain plug, and gave it a five count prior to putting my sample bottle in the stream - that's it in a nutshell.

I'm wrapping up another 10k dino OCI, and we'll see how repeatable the results are (same oil, air/oil filters, OCI length, etc.).
 
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