Has anyone here ever dealt with boat dealers?? Most of them will you you flapping in the wind if you have any form of boat trouble. You could forget any form of warranty if you showed receipts for a non-TCW3 rated oil and had engine failure related to lubrication(don't mention Amsoil's warranty, I am already aware of it). I am sure that Amsoil would smoke the tests, why don't they submit the oil for certification?quote:
Originally posted by joee12:
I just ordered some Amsoil Two Cycle injector oil from a friend that I want to try out. On the Amsoil website, Amsoil claims that the oil "meets and exceeds" the NMMA TC-W3 rating, yet I don not see the oil listed on NMMA's certification list:
www.nmma.org/certification/programs/oils/registeredoil.asp?bhcp=1
Any thoughts?
Amsoil Injector Oil
- Thread starter joee12
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Hey ben, I remember reading about a fishing lodge that exclusivley uses Amsoil, So what does that mean?? Not really anything except some sold both you and the other fishing logde on the features and benifits of that indivudual product.
Same goes for the Boats, engines, and other equipment that you have. Remember we don't have just the Ford Model T(you can have it in any color as long as it is black!)
Many many choices to weigh and decide. Do you use Compac or Dell?? Whats the diff?
quote:
Originally posted by msparks:
Msparks, I was merely making a statement about TCW-3 certification, and asking why does Amsoil not submit their oil for certification. If you know, please let me know! If you look at my original post, I provide a link to the NMMA website and the list of their certified oils.I was not by any means "questioning the ethics of a company". I am just very familiar with the fact that many boat dealers will stick it to you in a second if you are not using NMMA certified oil and you have a problem. By the way, I happen to use the Amsoil Two Cycle Injector oil in my outboard and love it(my motor is no longer under warranty). It doesn't smoke and my plugs are not nearly as fouled as they were running Mercury Quicksilver. I also happen to be using Amsoil 80W-90 gear lube in the rear-end of my truck and have mentioned in other posts that I am happy with it. I did not purchase the Amsoil products from you, but if you will send me a PM with the prices of the two-cycle oil, maybe we could do some business. Have a good Christmas Msparks, Joe
[ December 24, 2002, 12:06 PM: Message edited by: joee12 ]
O Boy, i got the amsoil zelots in a uproar.
A oil must be TCW3 certified for warranty puposes. Notice I said certified, not meets. By amsoil saying that one oil meets both tcW3 and iso egd/TC(on there website) specs they are lieing as it is imposible to do with one formulation. This is fact pure and simple.
Say what you want but your warranty is ny by if you use a non certified oil.
A oil must be TCW3 certified for warranty puposes. Notice I said certified, not meets. By amsoil saying that one oil meets both tcW3 and iso egd/TC(on there website) specs they are lieing as it is imposible to do with one formulation. This is fact pure and simple.
Say what you want but your warranty is ny by if you use a non certified oil.
"TCW-3 oils are a compromise formula designed with environmental impact considerations first and foremost. If you run a high performance, high RPM or high-load 2-cycle application and you do not HAVE to run TCW-3, you should not. You will have better luck (engine durability) with a high performance 2-cycle oil which is not limited by the constraints of TCW-3."
Bror, This statement is mostly bunk. First of all the biodegradalbilty/environmental thing isnt that much of a issue as many TCW3 certified oils use dino base stocks which are inherently un biodegrabable. It is true that running a high output two cycle on a tcw3 fluid isnt the best idea. This sort of aspplication is better suited for the use of a iso egd fluid. The problem is boat motors are not high performance or highly loaded motors. Low rpm, cool operating temps,etc. Under these operating conditions the additve packages in the high performance oils do not work so hot hence the oems spec a tcw# ashless fluid.
Bror, This statement is mostly bunk. First of all the biodegradalbilty/environmental thing isnt that much of a issue as many TCW3 certified oils use dino base stocks which are inherently un biodegrabable. It is true that running a high output two cycle on a tcw3 fluid isnt the best idea. This sort of aspplication is better suited for the use of a iso egd fluid. The problem is boat motors are not high performance or highly loaded motors. Low rpm, cool operating temps,etc. Under these operating conditions the additve packages in the high performance oils do not work so hot hence the oems spec a tcw# ashless fluid.
"Same goes for the ATF, they came out with a Universal ATF"
Another amsoil scam. The claim there universal ATF meets chrysler atf4, mercon, merconv and everyother spec under the sun when experts (George from this board for one) say this is impossible. If amsoil would cut out the misleading marketing and just come clean they would have more credibility in my book.
[ December 24, 2002, 08:52 PM: Message edited by: ben walker ]
Another amsoil scam. The claim there universal ATF meets chrysler atf4, mercon, merconv and everyother spec under the sun when experts (George from this board for one) say this is impossible. If amsoil would cut out the misleading marketing and just come clean they would have more credibility in my book.
[ December 24, 2002, 08:52 PM: Message edited by: ben walker ]
"Hey ben, I remember reading about a fishing lodge that exclusivley uses Amsoil, So what does that mean??"
I know most of the operators in Ontario will use the cheapest tcw3 oil they can get there hands on. I use injex because it is very high quality and is reasonable. This is because the oils will perform fine and do not void your warranty. I know of no one that has had a oil related failure since tcw3 spec came out. Some of the tcw2 spec fluids had ring sticking problems, but that was addressed with tcw3.
I know most of the operators in Ontario will use the cheapest tcw3 oil they can get there hands on. I use injex because it is very high quality and is reasonable. This is because the oils will perform fine and do not void your warranty. I know of no one that has had a oil related failure since tcw3 spec came out. Some of the tcw2 spec fluids had ring sticking problems, but that was addressed with tcw3.
Do you have any proof that their ATF does not work with the transmissions that they say it does or are you relying on hearsay testimony?
My god man, do you not watch The Practice?#*!
[ December 25, 2002, 01:09 AM: Message edited by: Tommy ]
"Do you have any proof that their ATF does not work with the transmissions that they say it does or are you relying on hearsay testimony?"
Do you? Wale oil might technicaly work, but that doesnt mean I would use it. The fact remains that it is not possible to meet various atf specs with one formula. The friction profiles are completely differant.
Do you? Wale oil might technicaly work, but that doesnt mean I would use it. The fact remains that it is not possible to meet various atf specs with one formula. The friction profiles are completely differant.
This is not a ATF thread, nor an Amsoil bashing thread. Please, let's get back on track, and Happy Holidays to all.
59 vette, Amsoil opens themselves up to this sort of crap by makeing misleading at best and fraudulant at worst claims. Saying a general purpose atf can meet all specs is untrue. Saying a two cycle oil can meet tcw3 spec and iso egd/ tc specs is untrue. I call it like I see it and that is amsoil=scamsoil.
Thanks Vetteman!!! Guys please, this thread was not intended as an Amsoil bashing thread. I simply asked a question about Amsoil and NNMA certification. I am not interested in bashing Amsoil, I am hoping that an Amsoil rep knows the answer and will provide me with the information. Thanks, Joe
OK, ben, that statement I posted above was pretty much off the mark. Environmentalism isn't the reason for TCW-3. But the rev range and operating temp is?
Oils designed for high temp, high RPM protection won't necessarily burn clean in a motor which is runs slower and cooler. Correct me if I'm wrong. It’s not an ego thing with me, it’s a “I wanna know the difference between $#i+ & shinola” thing.
As for Amsoil meeting vs. exceeding vs. being certified, I have mixed feelings on that issue in general ... and it goes for all small lubricant companies, not just the "Big A."
From hearing about API certification of motor oils, it ain't cheap. I’m assuming TCW-3 (The process AND the price tag) isn’t that different. A company can duplicate the certification tests themselves ... or hire an independent lab to do it. This is cheaper than having the “official body” doing it ... because you are not paying for their bloated bureaucracy on top of the actual lab costs.
So, if you know your product can meet the specs, the desire to is to save cash, bypass the bureaucrats, test independently and claim that your stuff passes (if ineed it does). I don’t know if there is an enforcement mechanism in place for checking to see if any testing has actually taken place. Probably not. I assume most well-known companies are conscious enough of their reputation to be careful of the claims they make. That's a big assumption ... but I don't seriously patronize companes unless I have investigated them pretty thoroughly.
Anyway, I run into ben’s kind of attitude fairly often on the net. This site is actually one of the more tolerant ones. Folks tend to be mistrustful of Amsoil’s claims. In ben's caes, I’m not sure if this is in response to some sort of test he saw run on the stuff, some experience he’s had with it or something else entirely.
I know I tend to roll my eyes when some people go on at length about the “Big A” brand of oil products and how they are the best for this, that, the other thing. The “cure-all” hype is just too over-the-top. It’s just my natural reaction to the way they are marketed. Despite the fact that everything I know about their formulas leads me to believe that are at least decent, if not very good, I can’t imagine even trying them.
Some (too many) of their jobbers come off like snake oil salesmen ... or televangelists. There isn’t a single product sold MLM or “pyramid” style that I currently use. Not one. The whole approach just creeps me out. People I don’t know looking me in the eye and pretending to care about me and my needs?
It smacks of an almost religious fanaticism that I reject ... like a bad kidney.
One jobber has a site and he mixes religion into his sales pitch to the extent that you’d think Jesus died on the cross just so 2,000 years later, we could all use a better synthetic motor oil. If you’ve seen the site, you know what I mean.
So, you followers of the "Big A," try to be patient with us non-believers. There’s room on this planet (and forum) for both of us.
Back to two cycle oil requirements:
" ... it is impossible for a oil to pass TC and Jaso fc while still passing TCW-3. TCW-3 fluids are ashless."
ben, is there an article you can point us all to which talks about this is greater detail?
--- Bror Jace
Oils designed for high temp, high RPM protection won't necessarily burn clean in a motor which is runs slower and cooler. Correct me if I'm wrong. It’s not an ego thing with me, it’s a “I wanna know the difference between $#i+ & shinola” thing.
As for Amsoil meeting vs. exceeding vs. being certified, I have mixed feelings on that issue in general ... and it goes for all small lubricant companies, not just the "Big A."
From hearing about API certification of motor oils, it ain't cheap. I’m assuming TCW-3 (The process AND the price tag) isn’t that different. A company can duplicate the certification tests themselves ... or hire an independent lab to do it. This is cheaper than having the “official body” doing it ... because you are not paying for their bloated bureaucracy on top of the actual lab costs.
So, if you know your product can meet the specs, the desire to is to save cash, bypass the bureaucrats, test independently and claim that your stuff passes (if ineed it does). I don’t know if there is an enforcement mechanism in place for checking to see if any testing has actually taken place. Probably not. I assume most well-known companies are conscious enough of their reputation to be careful of the claims they make. That's a big assumption ... but I don't seriously patronize companes unless I have investigated them pretty thoroughly.
Anyway, I run into ben’s kind of attitude fairly often on the net. This site is actually one of the more tolerant ones. Folks tend to be mistrustful of Amsoil’s claims. In ben's caes, I’m not sure if this is in response to some sort of test he saw run on the stuff, some experience he’s had with it or something else entirely.
I know I tend to roll my eyes when some people go on at length about the “Big A” brand of oil products and how they are the best for this, that, the other thing. The “cure-all” hype is just too over-the-top. It’s just my natural reaction to the way they are marketed. Despite the fact that everything I know about their formulas leads me to believe that are at least decent, if not very good, I can’t imagine even trying them.
Some (too many) of their jobbers come off like snake oil salesmen ... or televangelists. There isn’t a single product sold MLM or “pyramid” style that I currently use. Not one. The whole approach just creeps me out. People I don’t know looking me in the eye and pretending to care about me and my needs?
One jobber has a site and he mixes religion into his sales pitch to the extent that you’d think Jesus died on the cross just so 2,000 years later, we could all use a better synthetic motor oil. If you’ve seen the site, you know what I mean.
So, you followers of the "Big A," try to be patient with us non-believers. There’s room on this planet (and forum) for both of us.
Back to two cycle oil requirements:
" ... it is impossible for a oil to pass TC and Jaso fc while still passing TCW-3. TCW-3 fluids are ashless."
ben, is there an article you can point us all to which talks about this is greater detail?
--- Bror Jace
"Oils designed for high temp, high RPM protection won't necessarily burn clean in a motor which is runs slower and cooler."
100% correct Bror. The additive packages for tcw3 and isoegd/tc fluids is light years differant.TCW3 oils must use a ashless additve package to be certified and to prevent plug fouling. ISO eg d oils must use a low ash additive package to pass the performance tests that are part of the cert.There are no low ash tcw3 oils and there are no ashless iso egd /tc oils. This website explains the add package differances a little betetr. http://www.goa-northcoastoil.com/tips/2cycleol.html
As far as Amsoil goes. They have very little credibility in my book. They use smoke and mirrors to push there product. They say there products meet specs they can not and on and on. There claiming that there AIO meets tcw3, iso egd, and api tc is a prime example of this. The snippet you mentioned about them not wanting to pay the cost of certification is BS. Tcw3 certification doesnt cost that much as many off brands are certified. Api certification for amsoil doesnt cost that much either, but some of amsoil formulations (PCMO's) cant be certified because of the API's ignorant cap on ZDDP levels. Their diesel oils could be certified, but they chose not to for unknown reasons.
100% correct Bror. The additive packages for tcw3 and isoegd/tc fluids is light years differant.TCW3 oils must use a ashless additve package to be certified and to prevent plug fouling. ISO eg d oils must use a low ash additive package to pass the performance tests that are part of the cert.There are no low ash tcw3 oils and there are no ashless iso egd /tc oils. This website explains the add package differances a little betetr. http://www.goa-northcoastoil.com/tips/2cycleol.html
As far as Amsoil goes. They have very little credibility in my book. They use smoke and mirrors to push there product. They say there products meet specs they can not and on and on. There claiming that there AIO meets tcw3, iso egd, and api tc is a prime example of this. The snippet you mentioned about them not wanting to pay the cost of certification is BS. Tcw3 certification doesnt cost that much as many off brands are certified. Api certification for amsoil doesnt cost that much either, but some of amsoil formulations (PCMO's) cant be certified because of the API's ignorant cap on ZDDP levels. Their diesel oils could be certified, but they chose not to for unknown reasons.
I guess I’ll need to hang out in the boating lube forum more often. Wow, name calling and everything. Don’t worry, I’ve read the xxamsoil epithets before. Usually the people doing the name calling have some axe to grind and this thread looks no different.
First let me address the so called inability for top line synthetic lubricants to meet multiple specs. Tough specs for petroleum fluids, but not that difficult for synthetics. People lately have been bringing up Mercon V and saying things like it is impossible to meet Mercon V and Dexron 3 with the same fluid. Quoting experts that sell products. I call BS on this. Not only is it possible to meet both, but there is at least one fluid that exceeds both specifications. Tested at an independent lab. Now, don’t you think any of the big oil company’s legal team just would LOVE to rip Amsoil a new one if they couldn’t back up their claims? (I mean they even made Al change the name of the company!)
Sort of the same flawed logic applies to this TC-WII and TC-W3 discussion. For example from the posted GOA web site:
Now from the NMMA site:
As far as the original question. No the AIO will NOT void your warranty. Again from the GOA website:
First let me address the so called inability for top line synthetic lubricants to meet multiple specs. Tough specs for petroleum fluids, but not that difficult for synthetics. People lately have been bringing up Mercon V and saying things like it is impossible to meet Mercon V and Dexron 3 with the same fluid. Quoting experts that sell products. I call BS on this. Not only is it possible to meet both, but there is at least one fluid that exceeds both specifications. Tested at an independent lab. Now, don’t you think any of the big oil company’s legal team just would LOVE to rip Amsoil a new one if they couldn’t back up their claims? (I mean they even made Al change the name of the company!)
Sort of the same flawed logic applies to this TC-WII and TC-W3 discussion. For example from the posted GOA web site:
The key words here are "current ashless technology". The logic extrapolated (by some posters) is that it is impossible to meet both WII and W3. I’ll call BS on this one too. Independent lab tests show Amsoil AIO to meet both. To say that Amsoil AIO can’t meet both is a lie and some type of smear campaign.
Now from the NMMA site:
Amsoil considers this test to be pretty minimal. And yes one would think from a pure PR point of view, Amsoil should just sign up. Frankly I wish they would, too. It certainly would make my life easier. But that’s not how Al Amatuzio operates. He sees the license as, well, frankly extortion of HIS money. This seems hard for some here to fathom. That a lubricant can meet and, yes exceed these specifications, yet the company selling said lubricant doesn’t want to participate in the "license" scheme really grates on people with linear thinking – especially a performance only spec!! The funny thing is that some of these same folks pride themselves for thinking independently and not needing a mother and father government. I’m not saying minimal specifications are a bad thing, but they are certainly limiting, are often a compromise and to get hung up on the lowest common denominator is NOT why I’m involved with lubricants.
As far as the original question. No the AIO will NOT void your warranty. Again from the GOA website:
Even better than that you can have the confidence that the product will perform as advertised.
"First let me address the so called inability for top line synthetic lubricants to meet multiple specs. Tough specs for petroleum fluids, but not that difficult for synthetics. People lately have been bringing up Mercon V and saying things like it is impossible to meet Mercon V and Dexron 3 with the same fluid."
Pablo, You can not argue that two fluid specs with unique frictional charachteristics can be met with one fluid. It has nothing to do with being synthetic or not. BTW I would trust what a
registered tribologist says over a amsoil pusher any day.
Your comments about two cycle oils show you havent done your homework. TCw3 oils require a ashless additive package no matter what base oil is used. Conversly iso egd fluids require a low ash additive chemistry. Therefor it is impossible for one oil to meet both specs.Amso8il claims their AIO does this, which is a lie as ot cant possibly. This has nothing to do with base oils, its the additive chemistry that dictate the oils ability to meet applicable standards.
As far as the warranty issue goes. The magnusson-moss act will not protect you if you use a product that is not certified to the mfg specs. Sure you dont have to use the mfgs oil, but you must use one that meets their specs for warranty and is certified as such.
[ January 03, 2003, 02:26 AM: Message edited by: blano ]
Pablo, You can not argue that two fluid specs with unique frictional charachteristics can be met with one fluid. It has nothing to do with being synthetic or not. BTW I would trust what a
registered tribologist says over a amsoil pusher any day.
Your comments about two cycle oils show you havent done your homework. TCw3 oils require a ashless additive package no matter what base oil is used. Conversly iso egd fluids require a low ash additive chemistry. Therefor it is impossible for one oil to meet both specs.Amso8il claims their AIO does this, which is a lie as ot cant possibly. This has nothing to do with base oils, its the additive chemistry that dictate the oils ability to meet applicable standards.
As far as the warranty issue goes. The magnusson-moss act will not protect you if you use a product that is not certified to the mfg specs. Sure you dont have to use the mfgs oil, but you must use one that meets their specs for warranty and is certified as such.
[ January 03, 2003, 02:26 AM: Message edited by: blano ]
Joee12,
I sent you a private message, since you didn't have an email posted.
My new years resolution is to not get into crap like this on here anymore.
I am a individual Amsoil Dealer. Not a lawyer or Chemist or Corporate Employee of Amsoil.
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