Draining oil hot or cold questions?

[Artem]

Originally Posted By: Nyogtha
Well, if your filter isn't targeting the size range of 15 to 25 microns the old GM study stated caused the most damage, what are you targeting?

BTW, that's my target, purchasing filters with 94+% efficiency at 20 microns.


I remember reading somewhere that it's the 3-5 microns that technically cause the most damage. It's the tiny bits that turn the oil into sand paper type and scrape the internals as it flows around for thousands of miles.

I imagine a brand new engine fitted with a dual bypass filtration system would be the healthiest after say 200k miles of use.

 

[Ducked]

An exception would be if you plan to drop the sump and clean it out, when the drain temperature makes no difference. I've done that a couple of times with my current car because I seem to have a lot of ferrous metal settling out of the oil, and the sump is badly designed for draining.

It is, however, far to much of a pain on that car (and I'd guess on most recent cars) to do routinely.

Past cars (1800 Marina with B series engine, 1200 Lada, Triumph 1300) were a lot easier and I probably did it every 2-3 oil changes.

Progress?

 

[Artem]

When I dropped the oil pan to do a transmission fluid on an automatic Mazda RX-8, the bottom of the pan had a very thick layer of sludge like grease. Both magnets were caked in it too, along with all the metal they were holding. Took a lot of paper towels to clean everything up to factory clean.

I've dropped several oil pans on engines with 100K+ and non were ever clean and all had a thick layer of Goo that has built up over the years and is impossible to drain out.

 

[bbhero]

Say what you want to say without being a jack donkey. I have been there and done that to from time to time. So, I am just saying let's keep the bar a bit higher. Myself included.

You are very, very smart as is Nygotha. Be good.

 

[Shannow]

http://papers.sae.org/881825/

Quote:
The level of filtration in an engine can have a significant impact on wear rates due to abrasive particles. Tests were conducted to establish a relationship between the level of filtration and abrasive engine wear. Although the tests were run in a laboratory environment, wear was reduced by as much as 70% by going from a 40 micron filter to a 15 micron filter.Testing was performed on a heavy duty diesel engine and later with an automotive gasoline engine. The results from both engines were consistent and showed that the relationship developed can be applied to nearly any internal combustion recipricating engine.


http://www.aeromag.net/images/how/SAE.pdf
The researchers drew the following conclusions. Abrasive engine wear can be substantially reduced with an increase in single pass efficiency. Compared to a 40-Micron filter, gasoline engine wear was reduced by 50 percent with 30-Micron filtration. Likewise, wear was reduced by 70 percent with 15-Micron filtration. Controlling the abrasive contaminants in the range of 2 to 22 Microns in the lube oil is necessary for controlling engine wear. “The Micron rating of a filter as established in a single pass efficiency type test, does an excellent job indicating the filter’s ability to remove abrasive particles in the engine lube oil system.”

Can't believe that people are arguing that it's desirable to leave more junk IN the engine come oil CHANGE time...but this is BITOG.

If the statement is "I'm more comfortable changing it cold, and know that the engine will still outlast the chassis or my period of ownership"...no-one would give a hoot.

http://infohouse.p2ric.org/ref/31/30453.pdf

 

[dlundblad]

Originally Posted By: Nyogtha
Originally Posted By: dlundblad
Various manuals say to drain different fluids hot while the contaminants are in suspension.


Not so in the owner's manual for any vehicle I've ever owned, or my parents ownned.


Whichever brand I have for the Volvo says to drain the ATF hot for this exact reason.

One of my books says to drain the differentials hot. Could be for the Grand Cherokee or S10/ Blazer. Can't remember.

 

[Artem]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
http://papers.sae.org/881825/

Quote:
The level of filtration in an engine can have a significant impact on wear rates due to abrasive particles. Tests were conducted to establish a relationship between the level of filtration and abrasive engine wear. Although the tests were run in a laboratory environment, wear was reduced by as much as 70% by going from a 40 micron filter to a 15 micron filter.Testing was performed on a heavy duty diesel engine and later with an automotive gasoline engine. The results from both engines were consistent and showed that the relationship developed can be applied to nearly any internal combustion recipricating engine.


http://www.aeromag.net/images/how/SAE.pdf
The researchers drew the following conclusions. Abrasive engine wear can be substantially reduced with an increase in single pass efficiency. Compared to a 40-Micron filter, gasoline engine wear was reduced by 50 percent with 30-Micron filtration. Likewise, wear was reduced by 70 percent with 15-Micron filtration. Controlling the abrasive contaminants in the range of 2 to 22 Microns in the lube oil is necessary for controlling engine wear. “The Micron rating of a filter as established in a single pass efficiency type test, does an excellent job indicating the filter’s ability to remove abrasive particles in the engine lube oil system.”

Can't believe that people are arguing that it's desirable to leave more junk IN the engine come oil CHANGE time...but this is BITOG.

If the statement is "I'm more comfortable changing it cold, and know that the engine will still outlast the chassis or my period of ownership"...no-one would give a hoot.

http://infohouse.p2ric.org/ref/31/30453.pdf



Excellent post. I couldn't agree more. I totally understand someone wanting to do the OC without getting burnt (some oil filters are hard to get too, etc) but if we're discussing what is technically the BEST METHOD of doing it, in order to achieve the best results, well... I don't know how anyone can argue that draining it warm makes more sense from even a scientific standpoint.

 

[Ducked]

Originally Posted By: bbhero
Say what you want to say without being a jack donkey. I have been there and done that to from time to time. So, I am just saying let's keep the bar a bit higher. Myself included.


I read it over and the typo stuff was a bit uncalled for, and I do feel apologetic about that.

The rest of it, not so much. Still strikes me as a fairly measured response to a fairly aggressive (if incoherent) attack, though it might have been better to ignore it.

Originally Posted By: Shannow

Can't believe that people are arguing that it's desirable to leave more junk IN the engine come oil CHANGE time...but this is BITOG.

If the statement is "I'm more comfortable changing it cold, and know that the engine will still outlast the chassis or my period of ownership"...no-one would give a hoot.


Thanks. Refs seem like good coverage of the topic (but see below). As I said, I didn't have time to search for sources, but I was pretty sure I'd seen them.

Originally Posted By: Artem


I totally understand someone wanting to do the OC without getting burnt (some oil filters are hard to get too, etc) but if we're discussing what is technically the BEST METHOD of doing it, in order to achieve the best results, well... I don't know how anyone can argue that draining it warm makes more sense from even a scientific standpoint.


Whaddya mean "from even a scientific standpoint."? There is no other standpoint.........BUT........Check this out:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0301679X9500013T

The role of metals in the oxidative degradation of automotive crankcase oils

According to the abstract (all I've seen)

"Although the action of the metals in the two forms appeared non-specific, zinc and nickel were found to be more active oxidation catalysts in the heterogeneous form. Furthermore, the metals were found to cause significant reductions in sludge deposit formation in the oils by interfering with the polymerization of the oxidation products, through reactions that may involve metal-directed decarboxylation of carboxylic acids."

If you've got a fixed idea, you can probably quite often find an oddball/outlier scintific paper and elevate it (perhaps out of context) to the status of THE-source-of-truth.

 

[Ducked]

Originally Posted By: Artem
I totally understand someone wanting to do the OC without getting burnt (some oil filters are hard to get too, etc)


This came up in another concurrent thread and I didn't understand it there either.

Its optimal (but optional) to drain your oil hot, because you're likely to get more contaminants out that way.

This does not seem to apply to changing your oil filter.

Why not do that after your oil has drained for a while and everything has cooled down some?

 

[Artem]

Cooled down Some, sure, like if the oil filter is by an exhaust manifold or something.

I usually strive to knock it out before the engine cools down to avoid a "cold start" / fast idle. My Mazda 3 has a crazy high fast idle to warm up the CAT and I try to avoid that during an OC.

 

[Ducked]

Originally Posted By: Artem
Cooled down Some, sure, like if the oil filter is by an exhaust manifold or something.

I usually strive to knock it out before the engine cools down to avoid a "cold start" / fast idle. My Mazda 3 has a crazy high fast idle to warm up the CAT and I try to avoid that during an OC.


You know your car best, but to me it isn't worth rushing an oil change to avoid one cold start out of all the many unavoidable (unless you preheat) cold starts the engine will suffer in its lifetime. I let the engine drain overnight, maybe longer if (as is usual here) I don't need the car.

Admittedly I dont get really cold starts here but I did in Scotland. I've managed to avoid cats so far.

 

[Linctex]

Originally Posted By: Ducked
...but to me it isn't worth rushing an oil change to avoid one cold start out of all the many unavoidable (unless you preheat) cold starts the engine will suffer in its lifetime.


I find that there's usually plenty of time.

 

[Artem]

Serviced a 2009 Lexus ES350 with the V6.

5,000 miles on 5w30 bulk oil from fast Lube place. Owner doesn't remember the type. Typical.

Oil drained HOT and into a clean catch pan, followed by a clean gallon jug.

I examined the bottom 24 hours later. Looks pretty clean to me. Seems the oil filter did a good job keeping the oil free of heavy particles.

 

[Artem]

Old model Ford Focus. Unknown mileage and oil. Fram yellow can oil filter. Didn't seem to do a very good job filtering.

 

[Artem]

Seems if the engine is in good health and the oil filter is very efficient, then there's not much heavy matter in the oil to settle in the engine oil pan overnight.

I still think it's best to drain Warm oil.