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#4573543 - 11/14/17 08:30 AM DI engines high SAPS/low SAPS
superangrypenguin Offline


Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 68
Loc: Canada
Hi all,

I'm far from a frequent poster here, but I have lived through the [censored] of early VAG DI engines and have since owned a PFI Merc and I've loved it.

I'm considering buying a Lexus as my next car, which as everyone knows has both PFI and DI which is the reason I'm thinking about it as I refuse to buy a car that only has DI.

That said, I've read things such as posts indicating that low saps oils are best as there is an alleged decrease in carbon buildup on the intake valves. I believe Lubrizol was the one that did the study.

I have no idea what saps is, and why low sap oils are great for reducing intake valve buildup but they seem to require shorter OCI which is why Mercedes started telling dealers to stop using ESP oils on their gasoline cars.

Can someone please point me in the right direction to learn more about this please? Avid learner here, but have been pleasantly ignorant over the last few years as my car has been faithful to me.

Thanks

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#4573562 - 11/14/17 08:42 AM Re: DI engines high SAPS/low SAPS [Re: superangrypenguin]
StevieC Offline


Registered: 08/21/08
Posts: 16392
Loc: Ontario, Canada
As it has PFI/DI there is no need because enough fuel is sprayed across the valves when the PFI is running to keep the valves clean.

That said we have Hyundai Velosters in the family with early Direct Injection that were notorious for gunk build up and never had an issue using a quality oil that met manufacturer specs.



Edited by StevieC (11/14/17 08:44 AM)
_________________________
'15 Dodge Journey - 80,000 KM's - SSO 5w20
'06 Hyundai Santa Fe - 535,000km - SSO 0w30 (R.I.P)

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#4573626 - 11/14/17 09:41 AM Re: DI engines high SAPS/low SAPS [Re: superangrypenguin]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 22535
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
SAPS is sulphated ash, phosphorus, and sulfur. Generally speaking, such compounds tend to foul emissions devices and there has been the notion they help reduce the build up in DI engines, although that's clearly not always been that successful. They require shorter OCIs (at least with anything but ultra-low sulfur fuel) because of lower additive levels.
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Wix 57356
1984 F-150 4.9L six - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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#4573643 - 11/14/17 09:57 AM Re: DI engines high SAPS/low SAPS [Re: Garak]
superangrypenguin Offline


Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 68
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Garak
SAPS is sulphated ash, phosphorus, and sulfur. Generally speaking, such compounds tend to foul emissions devices and there has been the notion they help reduce the build up in DI engines, although that's clearly not always been that successful. They require shorter OCIs (at least with anything but ultra-low sulfur fuel) because of lower additive levels.


Fantastic info. Thanks for bringing me up to speed.

Is it not possible to have a low saps oil with high additive levels? What prevents oil companies from making such an oil? And is there a typo or something in your message? I believe (maybe i'm wrong), that low saps oil reduces the buildup of DI engines. Thus, high saps content = bad for intake valve buildup. Right?


Edited by superangrypenguin (11/14/17 09:58 AM)

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#4573714 - 11/14/17 11:30 AM Re: DI engines high SAPS/low SAPS [Re: superangrypenguin]
Garak Offline


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 22535
Loc: Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada
Yes, I worded that rather inelegantly. Low SAPS oils are what were the notion to reduce the buildup.

One could have higher "other" additive levels and be low SAPS, of course. A formulator here can provide much more information than I can, but certain specifications will require certain minimum levels of phosphorus or SA, so there's always a balancing act. A Euro low SAPS oil that has SN as a concurrent spec will have to meet a phosphorus minimum and a maximum, as well. If you take a look at the ACEA sequences, for instance, you can see the balancing act that formulators have to deal with. Of course, they have to be cost effective, too, and exotic chemistries to create a basic SN/GF-5 oil wouldn't be cheap, and certainly unnecessary to get the certification.

There are some oddball oils out there with very alternative chemistry, but they're far from mainstream at this point. I think Fuchs made an oil with almost no phosphorus, for instance.


Edited by Garak (11/14/17 11:31 AM)
_________________________
Plain, simple Garak.

2008 Infiniti G37 coupe - Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5w-40, Wix 57356
1984 F-150 4.9L six - Quaker State GB 10w-30, Wix 51515

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#4573745 - 11/14/17 11:59 AM Re: DI engines high SAPS/low SAPS [Re: Garak]
superangrypenguin Offline


Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 68
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Garak
Yes, I worded that rather inelegantly. Low SAPS oils are what were the notion to reduce the buildup.

One could have higher "other" additive levels and be low SAPS, of course. A formulator here can provide much more information than I can, but certain specifications will require certain minimum levels of phosphorus or SA, so there's always a balancing act. A Euro low SAPS oil that has SN as a concurrent spec will have to meet a phosphorus minimum and a maximum, as well. If you take a look at the ACEA sequences, for instance, you can see the balancing act that formulators have to deal with. Of course, they have to be cost effective, too, and exotic chemistries to create a basic SN/GF-5 oil wouldn't be cheap, and certainly unnecessary to get the certification.

There are some oddball oils out there with very alternative chemistry, but they're far from mainstream at this point. I think Fuchs made an oil with almost no phosphorus, for instance.


Thanks so much for the update and additional insight. Huge respect to you and others who have so much knowledge on this topic!

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#4573840 - 11/14/17 02:12 PM Re: DI engines high SAPS/low SAPS [Re: superangrypenguin]
Jeffs2006EvoIX Offline


Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1485
Loc: Imperial Valley, California
Honestly, if you have a DI car, as I do, have 2 vehicles that are DI, just use the Oil the manufacturer recommends. Dont complicate your life in the pursuit of something that May or May not even help.

DI Engine advise.

Use manufacturers recommended Oil
Use a High Detergent Gasoline, may or may not help, but in theory it should help
Dont sit for hours at a time idling if you can help it.
Get the car on the highway as often as possible.
Put money aside to pay for a valve cleaning for down the road. Look at it as part of routine maintenance.

Some cars are more prone than others for the build up, but they all gunk up sooner or later. Just is the nature of the beast. Some manufacturers have a port injector as well that helps clean the valves, though that was not their original intent.

Things I listed there, are not going to stop it, just like an oil catch can wont stop it, whatever oil wont stop it, or whatever gas wont stop it. The goal is to reduce it as much as possible.

The Low SAPS oils just are not the way to go in my book. I tried the Low SAPS Penzoil Ultra Euro 5w30 in my VW and it ran like [censored]. I switched back to Castrol 0w40 Euro 502 approved and it ran so much smoother. Heck even the wife noticed a difference. Now that is frickin amazing. haha.

Just keep it simple my friend and just drive the car. Put money away for the cleaning of the valves down the road.


Jeff
_________________________
2013 VW GTI

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#4573853 - 11/14/17 02:23 PM Re: DI engines high SAPS/low SAPS [Re: superangrypenguin]
Eddie Offline


Registered: 12/07/03
Posts: 9108
Loc: Florida, Cape Coral
My experience with Mazda vehicles built from 2007 on is to not be concerned. I have had a 2007 DI that was running beautiful when I sold it to my grandson at 90,000 miles and it is still running great. I think the major manufactures have minimized the DI carbon buildup to a point where it is a non issue for most drivers, Ed
_________________________
CX5 Touring 2.5L :-)

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#4573957 - 11/14/17 04:12 PM Re: DI engines high SAPS/low SAPS [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
superangrypenguin Offline


Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 68
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Honestly, if you have a DI car, as I do, have 2 vehicles that are DI, just use the Oil the manufacturer recommends. Dont complicate your life in the pursuit of something that May or May not even help.

DI Engine advise.

Use manufacturers recommended Oil
Use a High Detergent Gasoline, may or may not help, but in theory it should help
Dont sit for hours at a time idling if you can help it.
Get the car on the highway as often as possible.
Put money aside to pay for a valve cleaning for down the road. Look at it as part of routine maintenance.

Some cars are more prone than others for the build up, but they all gunk up sooner or later. Just is the nature of the beast. Some manufacturers have a port injector as well that helps clean the valves, though that was not their original intent.

Things I listed there, are not going to stop it, just like an oil catch can wont stop it, whatever oil wont stop it, or whatever gas wont stop it. The goal is to reduce it as much as possible.

The Low SAPS oils just are not the way to go in my book. I tried the Low SAPS Penzoil Ultra Euro 5w30 in my VW and it ran like [censored]. I switched back to Castrol 0w40 Euro 502 approved and it ran so much smoother. Heck even the wife noticed a difference. Now that is frickin amazing. haha.

Just keep it simple my friend and just drive the car. Put money away for the cleaning of the valves down the road.


Jeff


Hi Jeff

Thanks for your input. I find it interesting actually that you would choose Castrol Syntec 0w40. When I had a VAG, I ran Castrol Syntec 0w30 (made in Germany) -(yes it's been a few years), and while the oil was great and the car ran well, it was plagued with a ton of intake valve issues. I sold it at 50,000km or so (from what I remember) and I was glad to finally get rid of it.

I do idle a lot, as part of work, and so a dual injected engine is probably the way to go. The current Audi 3.0T engine has dual injection, as does the Lexus D4S engines. The fact that a DI engine essentially has cancer and slowly chokes itself is something that's really sad to me (I love cars and I love keeping cars in tip top shape).

Oh well, not much we can do though. Interesting comment regarding your experience running low SAPS oils. Did not expect that.

Thanks though.
Vince

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#4574047 - 11/14/17 06:12 PM Re: DI engines high SAPS/low SAPS [Re: superangrypenguin]
rrounds Offline


Registered: 07/05/07
Posts: 891
Loc: SACRAMENTO, CA
Why not use a water injection kit on a DI engine? That would keep all valves, head and pistons clean.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/nex-15020/overview/

ROD
_________________________
'06 S2000
'00 SSEi sold at 252k miles
'08 Ford F53 V10
'13 Jeep Sahara 2 door

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#4574139 - 11/14/17 07:20 PM Re: DI engines high SAPS/low SAPS [Re: rrounds]
superangrypenguin Offline


Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 68
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: rrounds
Why not use a water injection kit on a DI engine? That would keep all valves, head and pistons clean.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/nex-15020/overview/

ROD


I've followed this on several car forums. Not only is this not an easy thing to install, but no, it does not always work, especially in earlier 2.0 FSI VAG engines.

And also because the whole point of my goal is to minimize pain involving car ownership.


Edited by superangrypenguin (11/14/17 07:20 PM)

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#4575290 - 11/15/17 05:45 PM Re: DI engines high SAPS/low SAPS [Re: superangrypenguin]
Jeffs2006EvoIX Offline


Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1485
Loc: Imperial Valley, California
Hello...

What today's Castrol 0w40 is today is what Castrol 0w30 was years ago. The 0w40 has kinda superseded the 0w30. I have used this oil for almost 50k miles with no issues.

If you do excessive idling, that may be the culprit in your particular case. That is the worst thing for a DI engine. Unless you go Diesel.

Not many cars out there are NOT DI these days. A couple from Hyundai are not, and Toyota. These are base type cars though, but maybe that will suit your needs.

I figure if I need to get the valves cleaned every 70-100k miles costs $400 at the VW dealer I take my car to, that is pretty cheap. That would equal about once every 7 yrs or so for me. Not a big deal.

Good Luck with whatever you decide.


Jeff
_________________________
2013 VW GTI

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#4575335 - 11/15/17 06:12 PM Re: DI engines high SAPS/low SAPS [Re: superangrypenguin]
irv Offline


Registered: 10/08/06
Posts: 285
Loc: Oshawa, Ont. Canada
Just curious, and I am not 100% sure if I understand all this or not, but would running Seafoam in your gas, or other applications of it, occasionally, not help with some of these issues?
I have been using it for quite a few years in everything I own. Snowmobiles, snow blower, boat, lawnmower and my vehicles and I personally swear by the stuff.

Almost annually, with my 2 stroke Indy XLT SP, I had to tear the carbs apart to clean them. Since I have been using Sea Foam, I haven't tore them down in at least 4-5 years. I did after the first I started using it, and all 3 carbs (it's a triple) were as clean as a whistle. Lots of vids/info on it.
https://www.google.ca/search?q=does+seaf...me&ie=UTF-8

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#4575362 - 11/15/17 06:32 PM Re: DI engines high SAPS/low SAPS [Re: irv]
Jeffs2006EvoIX Offline


Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 1485
Loc: Imperial Valley, California
Originally Posted By: irv
Just curious, and I am not 100% sure if I understand all this or not, but would running Seafoam in your gas, or other applications of it, occasionally, not help with some of these issues?
I have been using it for quite a few years in everything I own. Snowmobiles, snow blower, boat, lawnmower and my vehicles and I personally swear by the stuff.

Almost annually, with my 2 stroke Indy XLT SP, I had to tear the carbs apart to clean them. Since I have been using Sea Foam, I haven't tore them down in at least 4-5 years. I did after the first I started using it, and all 3 carbs (it's a triple) were as clean as a whistle. Lots of vids/info on it.
https://www.google.ca/search?q=does+seaf...me&ie=UTF-8


It would probably help if someone used it regularly, the problem is, once you start putting seafoam in the intake, it can potentially mess up the Oxygen Sensors and or the Cat converter. Maybe it will, maybe it wont, but cleaning the valves professionally every now and then would be cheaper than replacing a cat converter.

Use good gas, Use good Oil, Dont let it idle for hours at a time, open it up on the freeway whenever you can, should all help.


Jeff


Edited by Jeffs2006EvoIX (11/15/17 06:33 PM)
_________________________
2013 VW GTI

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#4575393 - 11/15/17 06:55 PM Re: DI engines high SAPS/low SAPS [Re: Jeffs2006EvoIX]
irv Offline


Registered: 10/08/06
Posts: 285
Loc: Oshawa, Ont. Canada
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Originally Posted By: irv
Just curious, and I am not 100% sure if I understand all this or not, but would running Seafoam in your gas, or other applications of it, occasionally, not help with some of these issues?
I have been using it for quite a few years in everything I own. Snowmobiles, snow blower, boat, lawnmower and my vehicles and I personally swear by the stuff.

Almost annually, with my 2 stroke Indy XLT SP, I had to tear the carbs apart to clean them. Since I have been using Sea Foam, I haven't tore them down in at least 4-5 years. I did after the first I started using it, and all 3 carbs (it's a triple) were as clean as a whistle. Lots of vids/info on it.
https://www.google.ca/search?q=does+seaf...me&ie=UTF-8


It would probably help if someone used it regularly, the problem is, once you start putting seafoam in the intake, it can potentially mess up the Oxygen Sensors and or the Cat converter. Maybe it will, maybe it wont, but cleaning the valves professionally every now and then would be cheaper than replacing a cat converter.

Use good gas, Use good Oil, Dont let it idle for hours at a time, open it up on the freeway whenever you can, should all help.


Jeff


I don't run it all the time, in every tank of gas, but going by your response, are you suggesting it would need to be with these issue that are being talked about?

In my boat, I'll add a splash every 5 gallons I dump in it but there are times, most times, where the boat/engine doesn't run for a week or sometimes 2-3.
About twice, maybe 3 times a year, I'll add a full can to about a half tank of fuel, 30-50 ltr's, in my wife's car and my truck. My snowmobiles, I usually add a splash to my 5 gallon jerry cans and the same cans are used for my snowblower and lawnmowers.

My old as the hills lawnmower at our trailer was running pretty rough about 10 yrs ago. I added a fair amount for that small tank and it sputtered, spit, etc, but it cleaned it right up and it ran great from there on in. I wouldn't have believed it if I didn't see it myself. That is now why I add a splash here or there to my Jerry can. It helps keep the gas in there fresh plus I know it's going directly into my tanks on my toys/equipment.
It is also a stabilizer, deicer/waterer and a host of other things. I personally swear by it and will continue to use as long as it remains available. Cheers2

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