Hi all,
I'm far from a frequent poster here, but I have lived through the [censored] of early VAG DI engines and have since owned a PFI Merc and I've loved it.
I'm considering buying a Lexus as my next car, which as everyone knows has both PFI and DI which is the reason I'm thinking about it as I refuse to buy a car that only has DI.
That said, I've read things such as posts indicating that low saps oils are best as there is an alleged decrease in carbon buildup on the intake valves. I believe Lubrizol was the one that did the study.
I have no idea what saps is, and why low sap oils are great for reducing intake valve buildup but they seem to require shorter OCI which is why Mercedes started telling dealers to stop using ESP oils on their gasoline cars.
Can someone please point me in the right direction to learn more about this please? Avid learner here, but have been pleasantly ignorant over the last few years as my car has been faithful to me.
Thanks
DI engines high SAPS/low SAPS
- Thread starter Angrypenguin
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As it has PFI/DI there is no need because enough fuel is sprayed across the valves when the PFI is running to keep the valves clean.
That said we have Hyundai Velosters in the family with early Direct Injection that were notorious for gunk build up and never had an issue using a quality oil that met manufacturer specs.
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SAPS is sulphated ash, phosphorus, and sulfur. Generally speaking, such compounds tend to foul emissions devices and there has been the notion they help reduce the build up in DI engines, although that's clearly not always been that successful. They require shorter OCIs (at least with anything but ultra-low sulfur fuel) because of lower additive levels.
Originally Posted By: Garak
SAPS is sulphated ash, phosphorus, and sulfur. Generally speaking, such compounds tend to foul emissions devices and there has been the notion they help reduce the build up in DI engines, although that's clearly not always been that successful. They require shorter OCIs (at least with anything but ultra-low sulfur fuel) because of lower additive levels.
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Yes, I worded that rather inelegantly. Low SAPS oils are what were the notion to reduce the buildup.
One could have higher "other" additive levels and be low SAPS, of course. A formulator here can provide much more information than I can, but certain specifications will require certain minimum levels of phosphorus or SA, so there's always a balancing act. A Euro low SAPS oil that has SN as a concurrent spec will have to meet a phosphorus minimum and a maximum, as well. If you take a look at the ACEA sequences, for instance, you can see the balancing act that formulators have to deal with. Of course, they have to be cost effective, too, and exotic chemistries to create a basic SN/GF-5 oil wouldn't be cheap, and certainly unnecessary to get the certification.
There are some oddball oils out there with very alternative chemistry, but they're far from mainstream at this point. I think Fuchs made an oil with almost no phosphorus, for instance.
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Originally Posted By: Garak
Yes, I worded that rather inelegantly. Low SAPS oils are what were the notion to reduce the buildup.
One could have higher "other" additive levels and be low SAPS, of course. A formulator here can provide much more information than I can, but certain specifications will require certain minimum levels of phosphorus or SA, so there's always a balancing act. A Euro low SAPS oil that has SN as a concurrent spec will have to meet a phosphorus minimum and a maximum, as well. If you take a look at the ACEA sequences, for instance, you can see the balancing act that formulators have to deal with. Of course, they have to be cost effective, too, and exotic chemistries to create a basic SN/GF-5 oil wouldn't be cheap, and certainly unnecessary to get the certification.
There are some oddball oils out there with very alternative chemistry, but they're far from mainstream at this point. I think Fuchs made an oil with almost no phosphorus, for instance.
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Honestly, if you have a DI car, as I do, have 2 vehicles that are DI, just use the Oil the manufacturer recommends. Dont complicate your life in the pursuit of something that May or May not even help.
DI Engine advise.
Use manufacturers recommended Oil
Use a High Detergent Gasoline, may or may not help, but in theory it should help
Dont sit for hours at a time idling if you can help it.
Get the car on the highway as often as possible.
Put money aside to pay for a valve cleaning for down the road. Look at it as part of routine maintenance.
Some cars are more prone than others for the build up, but they all gunk up sooner or later. Just is the nature of the beast. Some manufacturers have a port injector as well that helps clean the valves, though that was not their original intent.
Things I listed there, are not going to stop it, just like an oil catch can wont stop it, whatever oil wont stop it, or whatever gas wont stop it. The goal is to reduce it as much as possible.
The Low SAPS oils just are not the way to go in my book. I tried the Low SAPS Penzoil Ultra Euro 5w30 in my VW and it ran like [censored]. I switched back to Castrol 0w40 Euro 502 approved and it ran so much smoother. Heck even the wife noticed a difference. Now that is frickin amazing. haha.
Just keep it simple my friend and just drive the car. Put money away for the cleaning of the valves down the road.
Jeff
My experience with Mazda vehicles built from 2007 on is to not be concerned. I have had a 2007 DI that was running beautiful when I sold it to my grandson at 90,000 miles and it is still running great. I think the major manufactures have minimized the DI carbon buildup to a point where it is a non issue for most drivers, Ed
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Honestly, if you have a DI car, as I do, have 2 vehicles that are DI, just use the Oil the manufacturer recommends. Dont complicate your life in the pursuit of something that May or May not even help.
DI Engine advise.
Use manufacturers recommended Oil
Use a High Detergent Gasoline, may or may not help, but in theory it should help
Dont sit for hours at a time idling if you can help it.
Get the car on the highway as often as possible.
Put money aside to pay for a valve cleaning for down the road. Look at it as part of routine maintenance.
Some cars are more prone than others for the build up, but they all gunk up sooner or later. Just is the nature of the beast. Some manufacturers have a port injector as well that helps clean the valves, though that was not their original intent.
Things I listed there, are not going to stop it, just like an oil catch can wont stop it, whatever oil wont stop it, or whatever gas wont stop it. The goal is to reduce it as much as possible.
The Low SAPS oils just are not the way to go in my book. I tried the Low SAPS Penzoil Ultra Euro 5w30 in my VW and it ran like [censored]. I switched back to Castrol 0w40 Euro 502 approved and it ran so much smoother. Heck even the wife noticed a difference. Now that is frickin amazing. haha.
Just keep it simple my friend and just drive the car. Put money away for the cleaning of the valves down the road.
Jeff
Why not use a water injection kit on a DI engine? That would keep all valves, head and pistons clean.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/nex-15020/overview/
ROD
Originally Posted By: rrounds
Why not use a water injection kit on a DI engine? That would keep all valves, head and pistons clean.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/nex-15020/overview/
ROD
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Hello...
What today's Castrol 0w40 is today is what Castrol 0w30 was years ago. The 0w40 has kinda superseded the 0w30. I have used this oil for almost 50k miles with no issues.
If you do excessive idling, that may be the culprit in your particular case. That is the worst thing for a DI engine. Unless you go Diesel.
Not many cars out there are NOT DI these days. A couple from Hyundai are not, and Toyota. These are base type cars though, but maybe that will suit your needs.
I figure if I need to get the valves cleaned every 70-100k miles costs $400 at the VW dealer I take my car to, that is pretty cheap. That would equal about once every 7 yrs or so for me. Not a big deal.
Good Luck with whatever you decide.
Jeff
Just curious, and I am not 100% sure if I understand all this or not, but would running Seafoam in your gas, or other applications of it, occasionally, not help with some of these issues?
I have been using it for quite a few years in everything I own. Snowmobiles, snow blower, boat, lawnmower and my vehicles and I personally swear by the stuff.
Almost annually, with my 2 stroke Indy XLT SP, I had to tear the carbs apart to clean them. Since I have been using Sea Foam, I haven't tore them down in at least 4-5 years. I did after the first I started using it, and all 3 carbs (it's a triple) were as clean as a whistle. Lots of vids/info on it.
https://www.google.ca/search?q=does+seaf...me&ie=UTF-8
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Originally Posted By: irv
Just curious, and I am not 100% sure if I understand all this or not, but would running Seafoam in your gas, or other applications of it, occasionally, not help with some of these issues?
I have been using it for quite a few years in everything I own. Snowmobiles, snow blower, boat, lawnmower and my vehicles and I personally swear by the stuff.
Almost annually, with my 2 stroke Indy XLT SP, I had to tear the carbs apart to clean them. Since I have been using Sea Foam, I haven't tore them down in at least 4-5 years. I did after the first I started using it, and all 3 carbs (it's a triple) were as clean as a whistle. Lots of vids/info on it.
https://www.google.ca/search?q=does+seaf...me&ie=UTF-8
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Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Originally Posted By: irv
Just curious, and I am not 100% sure if I understand all this or not, but would running Seafoam in your gas, or other applications of it, occasionally, not help with some of these issues?
I have been using it for quite a few years in everything I own. Snowmobiles, snow blower, boat, lawnmower and my vehicles and I personally swear by the stuff.
Almost annually, with my 2 stroke Indy XLT SP, I had to tear the carbs apart to clean them. Since I have been using Sea Foam, I haven't tore them down in at least 4-5 years. I did after the first I started using it, and all 3 carbs (it's a triple) were as clean as a whistle. Lots of vids/info on it.
https://www.google.ca/search?q=does+seaf...me&ie=UTF-8
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Hello...
What today's Castrol 0w40 is today is what Castrol 0w30 was years ago. The 0w40 has kinda superseded the 0w30. I have used this oil for almost 50k miles with no issues.
If you do excessive idling, that may be the culprit in your particular case. That is the worst thing for a DI engine. Unless you go Diesel.
Not many cars out there are NOT DI these days. A couple from Hyundai are not, and Toyota. These are base type cars though, but maybe that will suit your needs.
I figure if I need to get the valves cleaned every 70-100k miles costs $400 at the VW dealer I take my car to, that is pretty cheap. That would equal about once every 7 yrs or so for me. Not a big deal.
Good Luck with whatever you decide.
Jeff
Originally Posted By: PimTac
How would Seafoam clean the valves in a DI engine? The fuel doesn’t touch the valves thus the deposit buildups.
Originally Posted By: PimTac
How would Seafoam clean the valves in a DI engine? The fuel doesn’t touch the valves thus the deposit buildups.
Originally Posted By: PimTac
How would Seafoam clean the valves in a DI engine? The fuel doesn’t touch the valves thus the deposit buildups.
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