Low NOACK, SAPS and TEOST oil for DI engine

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From what I've read, several GDI engines (eg the ones from Ford & Hyundai) seem to be relatively problem free. However the horrendously bad problems Audi ran into with their 2.0L TFSI engines point to what can happen if things go wrong with GDI engines. One shouldn't dismiss this lightly. Regardless of what you think of The Germans, the TFSI was an advanced design, well engineered bit of kit and the Audi engine oils were state-of-the-art, highly specified synthetics. That the engines were prone to awful deposit formation (both IVD & CCD) and excessive oil consumption says to me that with GDI, you need to be particularly wary of The Law Of Unintended Consequences.

If you ask me what three things to look out for in buying a GDI engine oil, I would say Noack, Noack & Noack. You want it to always be as low as possible because you fundamentally want to keep the oil in the crankcase and out of the combustion chamber. You should IMO, compromise every other aspect of your oil's performance (eg fuel economy & cold start) in pursuit low volatility. A full PAO 10W30 would be my first choice oil.

To me, the focus on Calcium/SAPS is somewhat misplaced. If you look at murder victims, they are often covered in blood. We all know that blood should be on the inside, not the outside and that having too much on the outside and not enough on the inside will kill you. However we generally don't blame 'the blood' as the cause death. Rather we look for the person who made the stab wound or fired the bullets! In GDI engines, calcium is like blood. The question is why is it where it shouldn't be and what's causing oil to cycle round your engine in dastardly ways...

PS - Forget TEOST. It's won prestigious awards for being The Most Stupidest Lubricant Test Ever Developed. Just remember, no-one was ever stuck on the side of the road because their TEOST broke down...
 
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Originally Posted By: Joe90_guy
From what I've read, several GDI engines (eg the ones from Ford & Hyundai) seem to be relatively problem free. However the horrendously bad problems Audi ran into with their 2.0L TFSI engines point to what can happen if things go wrong with GDI engines. One shouldn't dismiss this lightly. Regardless of what you think of The Germans, the TFSI was an advanced design, well engineered bit of kit and the Audi engine oils were state-of-the-art, highly specified synthetics. That the engines were prone to awful deposit formation (both IVD & CCD) and excessive oil consumption says to me that with GDI, you need to be particularly wary of The Law Of Unintended Consequences.

If you ask me what three things to look out for in buying a GDI engine oil, I would say Noack, Noack & Noack. You want it to always be as low as possible because you fundamentally want to keep the oil in the crankcase and out of the combustion chamber. You should IMO, compromise every other aspect of your oil's performance (eg fuel economy & cold start) in pursuit low volatility. A full PAO 10W30 would be my first choice oil.

To me, the focus on Calcium/SAPS is somewhat misplaced. If you look at murder victims, they are often covered in blood. We all know that blood should be on the inside, not the outside and that having too much on the outside and not enough on the inside will kill you. However we generally don't blame 'the blood' as the cause death. Rather we look for the person who made the stab wound or fired the bullets! In GDI engines, calcium is like blood. The question is why is it where it shouldn't be and what's causing oil to cycle round your engine in dastardly ways...

PS - Forget TEOST. It's won prestigious awards for being The Most Stupidest Lubricant Test Ever Developed. Just remember, no-one was ever stuck on the side of the road because their TEOST broke down...


Great information. Makes a lot of sense.

With that said, look at some of the 10w30 grades (so much for 10w30 being obsolete
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) from Pennzoil/Valvoline/Mobil/Castrol. The NOACKs are all in the 5-7% range.

Among the 0w20's, M1 is the way to go at 10%. (majority PAO).

The Honda HTO-06 and SEQ IIIG appear to be a much better indicator of deposit protection than the TEOST.
 
Originally Posted By: buster

Among the 0w20's, M1 is the way to go at 10%. (majority PAO).

The Honda HTO-06 and SEQ IIIG appear to be a much better indicator of deposit protection than the TEOST.


And neither Honda or Toyota are suffering from deposit issues, higher Noack and all. The issue is probably much more complex than Noack alone.
 
If only I could find the NOACK on the Mobil 1 5W-20 offerings. The EP looks like a good bet or even the standard 5W-20. I'm also curious about calcium numbers.
 
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Sulfated ash on the Mobil offerings is at the mid range of .8%.

PP is way too high at 1.3%.
 
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Originally Posted By: Matt_V
If only I could find the NOACK on the Mobil 1 5W-20 offerings. The EP looks like a good bet or even the standard 5W-20. I'm also curious about calcium numbers.


I'd assume the 5w20 EP NOACK is equal or lower to EP 0w20 being the spread is less, but i'm guessing. SA is .8%.
 
Originally Posted By: buster
Originally Posted By: Matt_V
If only I could find the NOACK on the Mobil 1 5W-20 offerings. The EP looks like a good bet or even the standard 5W-20. I'm also curious about calcium numbers.


I'd assume the 5w20 EP NOACK is equal or lower to EP 0w20 being the spread is less, but i'm guessing. SA is .8%.


0w-20 EP is 60-70% PAO, 5w-20EP is 20-30% PAO, so I'd expect the 0w-20 to have lower Noack, viscosity range notwithstanding.
 
To the person who said it's more complex than just Noack, yes it absolutely definitely is...

It's ring pack design; the thinner the rings, the lower the ring tension and the bigger the ring gap, the greater the blow-by. It's PCV overall system design; the higher the aggregate vacuum, the higher the purge air, the worse the baffle design, the greater the rate of oil carry. It's climate; the colder the climate, the greater the likelyhood of sump fuel dilution and water condensation with the concommitant oil 'lift' when the engine warms up. It's burnt oil ring stickability and factoring 'goo setting times'.

But eventually you have to influence the things you have control over and accept that there's stuff that you can't. So buy the lowest Noack oil you can if you want to avoid Bad Stuff Happening...
 
I sent Amsoil an inquiry about their SS 5W-20, since it has the lowest NOACK at 6.3. No info on SAPS but I contacted Amsoil to see if they could shed some light. It is a Dexos1 spec'd oil so it may very well be under 1%. Besides the abundance in calcium (4000+ppm according to one VOA), it could be the answer.
 
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It's not, it says on the PDS "exceeds SA" of dexos 1.

0W-20 (ASM): API SN (Resource Conserving), SM…; ILSAC GF-5, GF-4…; ACEA A1/B1; GM dexos1™ (supersedes 6094M) Fortified with detergents that exceed dexos1 sulfated ash specifications; Chrysler MS-6395; Ford WSS-M2C947-A
 
Amsoil makes a great oil, but I honestly just don’t see the value at all on a price/performance basis, so no.

Ur talking about 3,600-4,000 ppm of Ca too. It's a lot.
 
This is true. I think either PP or Mobil 1 is the answer then. PP's NOACK is 8.6 but SAPS is 1.3.

Mobil 1 NOACK is 6-8 range, SAPS is 0.8. I think M1 is the winner.
 
Originally Posted By: Matt_V
Pennzoil now states the NOACK for Pennzoil Platinum 5W-20 is 8.6 but the file is dated from 04/14.

http://www.pennzoil.com/wp-content/uploa...GF-5-en-TDS.pdf

The important question here is that between NOACK, TEOST, SAPS and calcium which are the one to consider the most? I seem to find oils that have 2/4 going for them but none that have low enough of all 4. Pennzoil Platinum is loaded with calcium for example and has moderately high SAPS but low TEOST and NOACK.

Castrol Edge (black bottle) has a NOACK of 11.7, which is rather high, but a low TEOST of 3.5mg. I can't seem to find any info on SAPS info. Calcium is around 2200ppm.

Mobil1 0W-20 may indeed be the answer. Is it the EP type or standard that is the better of the two?

My concern for the next three years is warranty as well. Mobil 0W-20 doesn't meet Ford WSS-M2C945-A and Ford WSS-M2C930-A specificatons either, so that could be a possible issue.


You said" Mobil 1 0w20 doesn't meet Ford WSS-M2C945-A and Ford WSS-M2C930-A spec". Yes it does. I changed oil yesterday and have the 5 qt. jug of Mobil 1 Advanced Fuel Economy 0w20 in front of me and it does meet or exceed those spec's. Also GM Dexos 1
 
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Originally Posted By: Matt_V
This is true. I think either PP or Mobil 1 is the answer then. PP's NOACK is 8.6 but SAPS is 1.3.

Mobil 1 NOACK is 6-8 range, SAPS is 0.8. I think M1 is the winner.


Where did you find a Mobil 1 oil in the OP's viscosity (5w-20) with Noack in the 6-8% range? I doubt you'll find any below 10%, with 11-12 more likely.
 
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