oil filter duration
- Thread starter dharry
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My Honda also calls for filter every other oil change. My first oil change I went to the Fram Ultra and will run it for two changes. Really, do whatever you are comfortable with. You will have the die hard folks who say change the filter every time, which I used to be, but with some of the premium filters I see no reason not to go to every other oil change.
My FZ1 owners manual says change the filter every 2nd oil change, as well. So, oil change every 4,000 miles and filter change every 8,000 miles.
With the amount I ride (less than 12,000 kms/year), I normally install a new XG7317 on and fill with Rotella T6 before I put the bike away for the winter. Sometime during the summer, I will dump the T6 and fill with 20W50. I don't change the filter in the summer...
With the amount I ride (less than 12,000 kms/year), I normally install a new XG7317 on and fill with Rotella T6 before I put the bike away for the winter. Sometime during the summer, I will dump the T6 and fill with 20W50. I don't change the filter in the summer...
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Really depends on the car, your type of driving, how worn out your engine is, and IMO, the size of the filter. I'm comfortable leaving in a PH3600 style in my Escort for a long time if I buy a quality filter rated for the mileage intended. It's also a real PIA to replace. In the GF's Camry, it uses a tiny oil filter like a PH4967, which I prefer to change out every 3000 - 4000 miles because it's so small and very easy to get to, but I don't necessarily always change the oil since I use good quality oil. Both cars have lots of miles on them (around 170K on the Escort engine and 140K on the Camry engine). And yes both cars are beaters so if I'm doing this wrong we don't really care that much. Both car leak oil.
Originally Posted By: zzyzzx
Really depends on the car,
We are talking bikes and you are talking cages
Really depends on the car,
We are talking bikes and you are talking cages
FWIW, I use an oversized Napa Gold filter on my 2002 CBR F4i. Running Rotella T4 15w40 for a 2500 mile OCI - I thought with it being a super sport the filter would look pretty dirty. I posted the pictures on here, but long story short, the filter was amazing. I thought on a super sport bike a 2500 mile OCI would be similar to a regular car with 6-8k oci, but the filter looked absolutely amazing.
When I do my oil change this week, I'm going to cut open the Napa Gold because I want to see how it held up over the winter. I ride my bike during the winter when everything is perfect (sunny, no road salt, no wind). Rode as far down to 26*F -> even started up fine with the 15w40.
When I do my oil change this week, I'm going to cut open the Napa Gold because I want to see how it held up over the winter. I ride my bike during the winter when everything is perfect (sunny, no road salt, no wind). Rode as far down to 26*F -> even started up fine with the 15w40.
I change my filters every oil change. Motorcycle and car. I don't like the idea of mixing new clean oil with whatever crud remained in the old filter. At 2500 miles I would expect the filter would look almost like new condition wise. Unless the motor doesn't get used alot, and brought up to operating temp for a few miles. If your oil looks really dirty, I would think either the filter's bypass is stuck open and the oil isn't getting filtered, your sucking unfiltered air in the motor, or you have a problem internally.,,
dnewton3
Staff member
The "every other OCI" change for a filter is not new or unique; several OEMs suggest it (mostly the Japanese brands; coincidentally those that have very good reputations for quality and longevity). If they say it's OK in the manual, then there is no reason to believe otherwise, unless you're going to let your BITOG brethren out-engineer the engineers ...
Do not forget that oil filters actually get more efficient at their job (catching particulate) as they accumlate miles. Doing overly frequent OCIs and FCIs is not only wasteful, but actually causing a very slight uptick in wear rates. Despite what just about every BITOGer believes, it's not harmful to run an O/FCI out for a while.
Do not forget that oil filters actually get more efficient at their job (catching particulate) as they accumlate miles. Doing overly frequent OCIs and FCIs is not only wasteful, but actually causing a very slight uptick in wear rates. Despite what just about every BITOGer believes, it's not harmful to run an O/FCI out for a while.
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Originally Posted By: BigCahuna
I change my filters every oil change. Motorcycle and car. I don't like the idea of mixing new clean oil with whatever crud remained in the old filter. At 2500 miles I would expect the filter would look almost like new condition wise. Unless the motor doesn't get used alot, and brought up to operating temp for a few miles. If your oil looks really dirty, I would think either the filter's bypass is stuck open and the oil isn't getting filtered, your sucking unfiltered air in the motor, or you have a problem internally.,,
If we discount obvious mechanical issues like water in the oil, the appearance of the oil (color wise) tells us absolutely nothing other than the color of the oil. Here is a picture of my oil (in the sample jar) with 8327 miles on it, does it look nice & black? Can anyone tell the TBN or wear metals in it by visual observation?
And here is a test lab report of the SAME OIL with now 20K on it:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4391934/Re:_centrifuge#Post4391934
I recently drove to & from St. Louis MO area/New Orleans LA 3 times for business. (~1300+) mile round trips...Within the next 10 days I will be posting another UOA with 24K on the oil. I'm testing every 4K and have no plans to change oil until the test lab comes back with results I don't like. And my filter(s) haven't been changed either. My lab reports have TBN and particle counts; and I would daresay they are graphic proof of dnewton3's comment about filters getting more efficient as they catch debris (clog).
Different strokes for different folks. Do whatever lets you sleep at night.
I change my filters every oil change. Motorcycle and car. I don't like the idea of mixing new clean oil with whatever crud remained in the old filter. At 2500 miles I would expect the filter would look almost like new condition wise. Unless the motor doesn't get used alot, and brought up to operating temp for a few miles. If your oil looks really dirty, I would think either the filter's bypass is stuck open and the oil isn't getting filtered, your sucking unfiltered air in the motor, or you have a problem internally.,,
If we discount obvious mechanical issues like water in the oil, the appearance of the oil (color wise) tells us absolutely nothing other than the color of the oil. Here is a picture of my oil (in the sample jar) with 8327 miles on it, does it look nice & black? Can anyone tell the TBN or wear metals in it by visual observation?
And here is a test lab report of the SAME OIL with now 20K on it:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4391934/Re:_centrifuge#Post4391934
I recently drove to & from St. Louis MO area/New Orleans LA 3 times for business. (~1300+) mile round trips...Within the next 10 days I will be posting another UOA with 24K on the oil. I'm testing every 4K and have no plans to change oil until the test lab comes back with results I don't like. And my filter(s) haven't been changed either. My lab reports have TBN and particle counts; and I would daresay they are graphic proof of dnewton3's comment about filters getting more efficient as they catch debris (clog).
Different strokes for different folks. Do whatever lets you sleep at night.
Well it seems you spent over $60 for the oil and say $10 or more for a filter, $100 or more for at least 4 UOA's, and all you have to show for it, is that you spent $170 + or -, to keep a crankcase full of used oil and a used filter. I don't see the bang for the buck doing it your way.,,
FWIW I have done fresh oil at 2,500 miles in my Harley and a new filter at 5K. I use Valvoline VR1 20W-50 and a factory filter.
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Do not forget that oil filters actually get more efficient at their job (catching particulate) as they accumlate miles. Doing overly frequent OCIs and FCIs is not only wasteful, but actually causing a very slight uptick in wear rates.
A few questions:
Isn't part of an oil fliters "job" to offer high flow rates? If so, then a filter that has more captured particulates would not be as efficient at this portion of their job?
If a filter becomes too contaminated then isn't some amount of oil pulled through the bypass "unfiltered"?
I suppose we would need to know what flow rate is required by the engine at high RPM and what the flow rate is of the contaminated filter to know whether the engine is actually being starved?
Thanks.
Do not forget that oil filters actually get more efficient at their job (catching particulate) as they accumlate miles. Doing overly frequent OCIs and FCIs is not only wasteful, but actually causing a very slight uptick in wear rates.
A few questions:
Isn't part of an oil fliters "job" to offer high flow rates? If so, then a filter that has more captured particulates would not be as efficient at this portion of their job?
If a filter becomes too contaminated then isn't some amount of oil pulled through the bypass "unfiltered"?
I suppose we would need to know what flow rate is required by the engine at high RPM and what the flow rate is of the contaminated filter to know whether the engine is actually being starved?
Thanks.
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Originally Posted By: Ihatetochangeoil
...Within the next 10 days I will be posting another UOA with 24K on the oil. I'm testing every 4K and have no plans to change oil until the test lab comes back with results I don't like. And my filter(s) haven't been changed either. My lab reports have TBN and particle counts; and I would daresay they are graphic proof of dnewton3's comment about filters getting more efficient as they catch debris (clog).
I don't understand how your single experience is "graphic" proof of your oil filter becoming more efficient with extended use.
Do you have any concern that the paper element will deteriorate with such extended use and risk losing structural integrity? Are you using a "glass" media in your motorcycle filter?
Thanks for your insight.
...Within the next 10 days I will be posting another UOA with 24K on the oil. I'm testing every 4K and have no plans to change oil until the test lab comes back with results I don't like. And my filter(s) haven't been changed either. My lab reports have TBN and particle counts; and I would daresay they are graphic proof of dnewton3's comment about filters getting more efficient as they catch debris (clog).
I don't understand how your single experience is "graphic" proof of your oil filter becoming more efficient with extended use.
Do you have any concern that the paper element will deteriorate with such extended use and risk losing structural integrity? Are you using a "glass" media in your motorcycle filter?
Thanks for your insight.
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I originally searched for a thread on motorcycle oil filters to compare micron ratings of various motorcycle oil filter brands and also various element materials (paper, glass, S/S).
Is there a particular brand of moto oil filter that has a superior reputation and any filter brands you would avoid? I use a ROTAX RB-X305.
Is anyone aware of a comparison test of various oil filter manufacturers?
Lastly, can you recommend a good thread on how the new CK-4/SN rating for Rotella T6 affect its usability for wet clutches?
Thanks
Is there a particular brand of moto oil filter that has a superior reputation and any filter brands you would avoid? I use a ROTAX RB-X305.
Is anyone aware of a comparison test of various oil filter manufacturers?
Lastly, can you recommend a good thread on how the new CK-4/SN rating for Rotella T6 affect its usability for wet clutches?
Thanks
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dnewton3
Staff member
Originally Posted By: ArcticDriver
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Do not forget that oil filters actually get more efficient at their job (catching particulate) as they accumlate miles. Doing overly frequent OCIs and FCIs is not only wasteful, but actually causing a very slight uptick in wear rates.
A few questions:
Isn't part of an oil fliters "job" to offer high flow rates? If so, then a filter that has more captured particulates would not be as efficient at this portion of their job?
If a filter becomes too contaminated then isn't some amount of oil pulled through the bypass "unfiltered"?
I suppose we would need to know what flow rate is required by the engine at high RPM and what the flow rate is of the contaminated filter to know whether the engine is actually being starved?
Thanks.
I'll offer these generalizations, admittedly not always going to fit each exact situation, but close enough for BITOG reality.
First, know that oil filters have a lot of excess capacity for the normal application. And I mean a LOT of EXCESS capacity. If your engine runs fine, it's not producing a huge amount of contamination. If your air filter (also way over capacitized on purpose) is doing it's job, then there's not a lot of intake junk getting in either.
Filters generally have a large amount of excess. But to help out, I need to make up some fictitious numbers here ... for examples of illustration ...
When it comes to capacity, let's say a filter has the ability to hold 40 grams of particulate before it would blind off media and go into perpetual bypass. Until you know how much your engine produces and intakes, it's kind of moot. So let's say your system experiences 10 grams of particulate every 5k miles. That means it would take 20k miles for your filter to blind off. If you FCI every 5k miles, you're throwing away a lot of unused capacity. Even at 2x that OEM suggested FCI, you're still in fine shape. Again, the numbers are made up, but the concept is very real!
Next we need to understand flow potential. Most folks think of the filter as being 100% when "new" relative to the engine needs. But that's also not the case! The filters are actually made to flow WELL MORE than the engine needs, so that as they age with use, and load up with particulate, they still flow AT LEAST what the engine needs at WOT. If your engine needs 800 CFM air intake at WOT, then it's likely the air filter would be able to flow perhaps 2000 CFM when "new", and even 1000 CFM when used past the intended limit. It's even more obvious this is true when you consider a traditional diesel engine. Diesels run at full air intake ALL THE TIME (there is no throttling of the air; only fuel). So a diesel engine needs 100% of it's air from idle to red-line. So air filters on diesels have to provide 100% flow even after 30k or 50k miles. So they start out with a giant amount of excess capacity for particulate holding and flow, so that as they degrade with use (as they load up), they still provide a minimum level of performance well past what the engine needs.
When it comes to oil filters, they typically flow well more than the engine will pump at high rpm. There's an old thread here somewhere that showed information from a Pure One filter in an application for a Corvette; the filter would flow about 2x what the engine could produce as I recall. The concern was that the highly efficient media may starve the engine for flow, or go into bypass at high rpm. The data proved that both fears were completely unfounded.
Only if you grossly neglect the filters, loading them past any insane level, will they start to compromise their functional intent.
I have run normal oil filters to 15k miles, and yet the UOAs showed no detrimental wear characteristic, and the filter dissections showed the filters were fine internally.
There exists a HUGE amount of excess capacity in most normal products. Most filters have way more capacity for particulate and flow than most folks think.
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
Do not forget that oil filters actually get more efficient at their job (catching particulate) as they accumlate miles. Doing overly frequent OCIs and FCIs is not only wasteful, but actually causing a very slight uptick in wear rates.
A few questions:
Isn't part of an oil fliters "job" to offer high flow rates? If so, then a filter that has more captured particulates would not be as efficient at this portion of their job?
If a filter becomes too contaminated then isn't some amount of oil pulled through the bypass "unfiltered"?
I suppose we would need to know what flow rate is required by the engine at high RPM and what the flow rate is of the contaminated filter to know whether the engine is actually being starved?
Thanks.
I'll offer these generalizations, admittedly not always going to fit each exact situation, but close enough for BITOG reality.
First, know that oil filters have a lot of excess capacity for the normal application. And I mean a LOT of EXCESS capacity. If your engine runs fine, it's not producing a huge amount of contamination. If your air filter (also way over capacitized on purpose) is doing it's job, then there's not a lot of intake junk getting in either.
Filters generally have a large amount of excess. But to help out, I need to make up some fictitious numbers here ... for examples of illustration ...
When it comes to capacity, let's say a filter has the ability to hold 40 grams of particulate before it would blind off media and go into perpetual bypass. Until you know how much your engine produces and intakes, it's kind of moot. So let's say your system experiences 10 grams of particulate every 5k miles. That means it would take 20k miles for your filter to blind off. If you FCI every 5k miles, you're throwing away a lot of unused capacity. Even at 2x that OEM suggested FCI, you're still in fine shape. Again, the numbers are made up, but the concept is very real!
Next we need to understand flow potential. Most folks think of the filter as being 100% when "new" relative to the engine needs. But that's also not the case! The filters are actually made to flow WELL MORE than the engine needs, so that as they age with use, and load up with particulate, they still flow AT LEAST what the engine needs at WOT. If your engine needs 800 CFM air intake at WOT, then it's likely the air filter would be able to flow perhaps 2000 CFM when "new", and even 1000 CFM when used past the intended limit. It's even more obvious this is true when you consider a traditional diesel engine. Diesels run at full air intake ALL THE TIME (there is no throttling of the air; only fuel). So a diesel engine needs 100% of it's air from idle to red-line. So air filters on diesels have to provide 100% flow even after 30k or 50k miles. So they start out with a giant amount of excess capacity for particulate holding and flow, so that as they degrade with use (as they load up), they still provide a minimum level of performance well past what the engine needs.
When it comes to oil filters, they typically flow well more than the engine will pump at high rpm. There's an old thread here somewhere that showed information from a Pure One filter in an application for a Corvette; the filter would flow about 2x what the engine could produce as I recall. The concern was that the highly efficient media may starve the engine for flow, or go into bypass at high rpm. The data proved that both fears were completely unfounded.
Only if you grossly neglect the filters, loading them past any insane level, will they start to compromise their functional intent.
I have run normal oil filters to 15k miles, and yet the UOAs showed no detrimental wear characteristic, and the filter dissections showed the filters were fine internally.
There exists a HUGE amount of excess capacity in most normal products. Most filters have way more capacity for particulate and flow than most folks think.
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I cut my filters apart. I never find anything, and it's clear the filter media is not clogged. A view under my Nikon microscope reveals perfectly viable filter media.
I'd suggest that one could perform three or even four oil changes per filter change without any risk of a restricted filter. On a healthy engine, with quality oil.
I simply do not like the "old" oil that the filter contains.... If I'm performing an oil change, I want to change as much as possible. So, I never change the oil more than twice without a filter change. But I do wonder why I change the filter every time I cut one apart.
I even manage my aircraft this way. Change the oil filter every other oil change.
I'd suggest that one could perform three or even four oil changes per filter change without any risk of a restricted filter. On a healthy engine, with quality oil.
I simply do not like the "old" oil that the filter contains.... If I'm performing an oil change, I want to change as much as possible. So, I never change the oil more than twice without a filter change. But I do wonder why I change the filter every time I cut one apart.
I even manage my aircraft this way. Change the oil filter every other oil change.
I know this thread is in the motorcycle section but I've got to add my two cents.
In the past I've run many oil filters for extended periods without any problem and I never found debris in the filter media. Until recently.
The engine has 190,000 miles and consumes 1qt / 4,000 miles. A year or two ago I ran a fram ultra 19,500 miles and when removed, the filter looked black and I found black/carbon/grit at the ends of the filter media and I got the impression that the filter had been going into bypass so I ran the next filter a much shorter distance. The latest filter I used was a Mobil EP and I used it for only 7,200 miles. The filter came out crushed looking and I found black carbon like debris in the media pleats. UOA says everything is fine.
Why this is happening?, I don't know, but I don't trust my oil filters for extended use any more.
The fram ultra with carbon/grit at the ends, 19,500 miles.
Mobil EP crushed? 7,200 miles. Black carbon/grit found in the media.
In the past I've run many oil filters for extended periods without any problem and I never found debris in the filter media. Until recently.
The engine has 190,000 miles and consumes 1qt / 4,000 miles. A year or two ago I ran a fram ultra 19,500 miles and when removed, the filter looked black and I found black/carbon/grit at the ends of the filter media and I got the impression that the filter had been going into bypass so I ran the next filter a much shorter distance. The latest filter I used was a Mobil EP and I used it for only 7,200 miles. The filter came out crushed looking and I found black carbon like debris in the media pleats. UOA says everything is fine.
Why this is happening?, I don't know, but I don't trust my oil filters for extended use any more.
The fram ultra with carbon/grit at the ends, 19,500 miles.
Mobil EP crushed? 7,200 miles. Black carbon/grit found in the media.
Originally Posted By: WobblyElvis
Why this is happening?, I don't know, but I don't trust my oil filters for extended use any more.
No, the oil filter is doing its job - or at least trying its best. Looks like something's gone wrong with your engine for the filters to be catching that much crud.
You'll likely get more detailed responses on other sections of this forum.
Until you find and fix the source of the problem, extended filter intervals are probably not recommended.
Why this is happening?, I don't know, but I don't trust my oil filters for extended use any more.
No, the oil filter is doing its job - or at least trying its best. Looks like something's gone wrong with your engine for the filters to be catching that much crud.
You'll likely get more detailed responses on other sections of this forum.
Until you find and fix the source of the problem, extended filter intervals are probably not recommended.
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